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BryanHolland

Will there ever be a manual engine startup?

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Once more:  (obligatory "I don't really care one way or the other about click-pits" statement even though this is supposed to be a "manual startup" thread and not a "click-pit" thread)

1.  Saying a manual start up procedure is way to labor intensive and there are myriad other, better ways to spend valuable time and resources is a valid, reasonable and even, to most people, acceptable argument.

2. Saying, "I don't like manual start up so it shouldn't be there" is pretty much not a good, valid, or reasonable argument.  I honestly don't get this point of view.  If you don't like them, there could easily be a setting for "realistic start up procedures" in the game.

I am NOT advocating for "manual startup".  I like it.  I wish that it could be.  But, I don't like it so much as to prioritize it over a BUNCH of other stuff I'd rather see.  I am just commenting on the attitude of those that employ arguments similar to "point 2".

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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:06 PM, SharpeXB said:

The startup animations in IL-2 are really nice. But don’t let them fool you into thinking that it would be an easy step to make them manual.  

 

Exactly, especially considering that for the feature to be complete, it would have to simulate the effects of a missing step, or following the sequence in wrong order.  Given the amount of controls that have to be clicked, the underlying complexity could be astounding.

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13 hours ago, Cpt_Cool said:

I dont think Click pits should come to BOX, but I will say that there was one aspect of them that I did enjoy in Clod quite a bit.

 

When bailing out, dropping the stick, grabbing the mouse and clicking the handle to jettison the canopy (in a shaking or rolling airplane) added to the tension a little bit, which was appreciated. 

 

I guess what I am getting at is instead of manual start up, maybe what i want is more in depth bailout controls (open canopy, jump, rip the cord) lol. Not a serious suggestion, but it would still be more fun than...priming cylinder with fuel...ok next one....almost done...

I remember having to pump the hydraulics to get my gear down in the 109 in clod that was definitely pretty cool and immersive. Come on team fusion get that VR in game already!

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4 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

I remember having to pump the hydraulics to get my gear down in the 109 in clod that was definitely pretty cool and immersive. Come on team fusion get that VR in game already!

 

I also remember in IL2-1946 that you had to spend ages manually winding up the undercarriage in the Wildcat 🙂

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1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I also remember in IL2-1946 that you had to spend ages manually winding up the undercarriage in the Wildcat 🙂

 

Yep I remember that well.

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I have ground crew to start my birds up 😁

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2 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Yep I remember that well.

I was playing 1946 on a giant virtual screen with bigscreen beta, and using opentrack to use the oculus as headtracking, it was really freaking cool. If I can get the performance dialed in its a treat. Was also using the oculus on top of my head as a head tracker which worked surprisingly well. Opentracks a great program. You can buy vorpx and actually play it in 3d, debating on whether or not the 40 bucks is worth it as I hear some of the effects are broken.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Maybe this optional! manual startup procedures and clickable cockpit could be implemented piece by piece during longer period of time. For example:

First round: Switch on electrics, magnetos, fuel systems

Second round: Radios, Nav radios

Third round: Weapons related switches & settings

Fourth round: Other auxilliary systems, oxygen, etc.

 

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I used to fly DCS and I agree that in DCS most people just used the auto start after the novelty has worn off and the list of key you needed to set up to handle every switch you might ever use was just stupid.  Nobody could remember them all.

 

On the other hand,  I did appreciate the fact that even though I would never remember the three finger key press needed to activate the manual gear release or the emergency engine restart,  I knew that I only had to vaguely remember where they were and click on them.   Also, even though I do not own VR yet,  I feel that clickable cockpits are the best way to overcome the problem of not being able to see your cockpit while wearing a VR headset,  especially if coupled with at least one VR glove.  I still don't think detailed start-ups are necessary but I could get behind a one or two or three button startup and clickable switches for things that wont fit on your HOTAS but you might need to use one day.   I would even go so far as to say that when VR gloves become commonplace, flight sims without clickable cockpits might find themselves falling behind.

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7 hours ago, LLv44_Damixu said:

Maybe this optional! manual startup procedures and clickable cockpit could be implemented piece by piece during longer period of time. For example:

First round: Switch on electrics, magnetos, fuel systems

Second round: Radios, Nav radios

Third round: Weapons related switches & settings

Fourth round: Other auxilliary systems, oxygen, etc.

 

 

No, no, no, and no

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13 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, no, no, and no

aw c'mon luke...stop sitting on the fence

Edited by SCG_BOO
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4 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 I would even go so far as to say that when VR gloves become commonplace, flight sims without clickable cockpits might find themselves falling behind.

Then again, VR might not become commonplace...

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, no, no, and no

 

...and also ‘no’

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13 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I also remember in IL2-1946 that you had to spend ages manually winding up the undercarriage in the Wildcat 🙂

 

Wasn't that simply repeatedly tapping the gear key? 

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The sheer fact that there are moe than 3 pages of replys should be an indication of the dedication of players to this sim. Personally, I'd - I think - love the startup sequence to be modelled with  X cockpit. BUT....!

 

I remember in FS2004 I bought an ATR-72-500 from "Flight One". Every single switch was modelled. The many-manu-page manual for the sim aircraft was set up to print in - I think - 50% grey: to save on simmers' printer ink! I printed the bugger out. I hole-punched the pages and put them in a binder. I started up the ATR 72 following the exhaustive (of course) checklist from cold and dark exactly once. 

 

Every other time I  flew the ATR 72 in FS2004, it was from an already-running aircraft at a gate or on the runway threshold.

 

In other words:....[Personally I liked the CloD approach to clickable cockpits - a slightly strange halfway house. But it became a routine tapping of key-strokes in a preset order to start up engines. In other words, Clod cockpits were not at all more "realistic" than your BoS Ctrl-E startups!]

Edited by No601_Swallow

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I like the clickable cockpits and full systems in sims that they are appropriate for. I’ve digested the flight manuals for a few airliners in X-Plane. 

But this isn’t that type of sim. And that’s fine. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Then again, VR might not become commonplace...

There he is!!! You just couldn't resist could you! LMAO It's like you have VR radar that as soon as anyone brings it up you jet on over [edited] It's actually hilarious at this point.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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 Maybe it could be added as a payed dlc?

 

I would love to have it :)

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32 minutes ago, Dark_P said:

 Maybe it could be added as a payed dlc?

 

 

Nope

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IF this was a sim that had terrible looking terrain, extremely long development cycle and little content besides individual aircraft i would say you should probably have a manual startup of engines. But fortunately we don't have any of that. 

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1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

There he is!!! You just couldn't resist could you! LMAO It's like you have VR radar that as soon as anyone brings it up you jet on over and shit all over it. It's actually hilarious at this point.

Let’s not suggest a scope altering change to the game in order to accommodate VR, which is just an embryonic technology at this stage. 

 

And it’s a completely dead issue. This sim is not getting clickable cockpits. Not for VR or any other reason. 

 

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I would like manual spec removal from my canopy glass please.

 

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5 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

Wasn't that simply repeatedly tapping the gear key? 

 

But the immersion though... /s

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10 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

Wasn't that simply repeatedly tapping the gear key? 

It was, and same for the Rata. 

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I used to find all that key pressing a pain in the arse... it's not as if it made it 'real to life'.  

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11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Let’s not suggest a scope altering change to the game in order to accommodate VR, which is just an embryonic technology at this stage. 

 

And it’s a completely dead issue. This sim is not getting clickable cockpits. Not for VR or any other reason. 

 

🤣

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As if it was sufficient just to have the buttons to click in the cockpit. As long as you don't simulate the entire system and their state behind your actions, you're missing out on the main purpose on why having the manual thingy. And that is what turns me off with the DCS warbirds. No matter what I do (wrong) the basic state of the systems are always such that the "process" will fail as soon as you skip one step of the "official" drill, be that one just having the cockpit door open. I could never start the Spitfire with the door open. Or with brakes not set. Anyone managed to do so? It is also indifferent to overpriming. Even if the engine just ran, I need to use the manual fuel pump to get it going after a start. If the engine is just run and the right amount fuel is in there, I always have to do the procedure of a cold start. I like DCS WW2 birds for allowing me to the cockpit drill. But it is pretty far from giving me the idea of actually handling a real engine.

 

Getting the systems really right is tremendous work, something that few publishers do. And if they do, planes come at a steep price compared to out 10$ planes in BoX. It would also be totally out of scope for this combat sim and it would definitely preclude having a good number of AC in time. It's for good reason that the devs here chose not to tackle this can of worms.

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12 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

As if it was sufficient just to have the buttons to click in the cockpit. As long as you don't simulate the entire system and their state behind your actions, you're missing out on the main purpose on why having the manual thingy. And that is what turns me off with the DCS warbirds. No matter what I do (wrong) the basic state of the systems are always such that the "process" will fail as soon as you skip one step of the "official" drill, be that one just having the cockpit door open. I could never start the Spitfire with the door open. Or with brakes not set. Anyone managed to do so? It is also indifferent to overpriming. Even if the engine just ran, I need to use the manual fuel pump to get it going after a start. If the engine is just run and the right amount fuel is in there, I always have to do the procedure of a cold start. I like DCS WW2 birds for allowing me to the cockpit drill. But it is pretty far from giving me the idea of actually handling a real engine.

 

 

I don't want to get into a heated discussion about DCS on an IL-2 forum, so I'm going against my better judgement in responding to this, but it feels like you are making a vast overgeneralization here.  Now, I don't have the Spitfire, so maybe what you say is some kind of bugginess with that particular module, but for all the aircraft that I do have, I've never encountered anything like you describe.  I've done -many- half-baked, shoddy start ups, with them all...forgetting certain things, doing things out of sequence, forgetting to close doors, forgetting to lower collective on helicopters, not disengaging the brakes, etc...I've never seen a situation where you needed to needed to follow a rote method of startup in which missing some unnessential step throws it all out of kilter.   All the planes I have appear to have very good systems modelling where things happen based on the state that the systems are in.

 

I don't need or want a clickable cockpit in IL-2.  I'd rather see development time spent on more important things, and that is exactly what it's going to be.  I agree that it won't happen and so the request is dead on arrival.  All I'm saying is that you're making what I consider an incorrect generalization about another game as an argument against it.

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2 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I've never seen a situation where you needed to needed to follow a rote method of startup in which missing some unnessential step throws it all out of kilter. 

I should try it again then.

 

But it was never something that really caught my enthusiasm as it is done in other places. That said, I like the DCS modules for what they can deliver (just bought the Mig-19 and installing it now). But it's just my perception. The amount of work needed to get it right is tremendous, and if yoo do it, it can still feel a bit "meh". I'm glad they don't do it in BoX.

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