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-[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

Bf-109 Defensive fight

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Hi all!

I'm just curious what are others do, when they had a bad situation with BF.109.

I mean: Bf-109 is a BnZ fighter, but what if: somebody is in your 6 and u already dived down to deck and u cant lose him, and there is no friendly forces.
Then what?!

Because In turnfight the Bf-109 is so f*cking useless. I mean against Yak,Spits.

 

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1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Spiral climb.

 

1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

Left hand climbing turn?

 

Yeah..exactly my taste. 😁 Do this and I will use the initial climb rate of my Yak and snipe you from 200-300m right in your fragile cooling system. Then I only have too wait untill your Bf-109 looses power to finish you off. So many 109er pilots fellt to my guns with this simple tactic,over and over again..

 

Best advice to the OP: NEVER let a Yak,La-5 or a Spitfire come so close to your 6. NEVER bring yourself in such a helpless situation. Period! Always fly the Bf-109 to its strenght, or you will quickly end as a burning torch in the sky.

 

Cheers from a Yak/La-5 pilot.

Edited by Semor76
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If you get the spiral climb "just" right you will see that little Yak desperately trying to keep up with you and at the last moment has his nose drops  you dive on and fill him full of cannon rounds.

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8 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

If you get the spiral climb "just" right you will see that little Yak desperately trying to keep up with you and at the last moment has his nose drops  you dive on and fill him full of cannon rounds.

I started doing this and can finally manage to shot down Yak1b's and La5FN's in my G-6... Against AI.

 

I guess against humans will be a completely entire different world

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11 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

 

I guess against humans will be a completely entire different world

It does work against human opponents "if" they tend to follow you into the manoeuvre, of course the problem is  experienced "human" pilots get wise to it. It doesn't matter how good AI gets you can't beat unpredictable human pilots.

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2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Left hand climbing turn?

 

Why left ? is it tighter because of engine torque ? 

I've had some success with right hand spiral climbs in a spit on berloga. I just naturally seem to want to pull the stick to the right. 

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2 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Hi all!

I'm just curious what are others do, when they had a bad situation with BF.109.

I mean: Bf-109 is a BnZ fighter, but what if: somebody is in your 6 and u already dived down to deck and u cant lose him, and there is no friendly forces.
Then what?!

Because In turnfight the Bf-109 is so f*cking useless. I mean against Yak,Spits.

 

 

Well, you are in deep trouble. Use your advantages never to come to this point you describe. This is like asking: an elite SWAT member disarmed me, tied my hands behind my back and made me kneel infront of him at gunpoint - what can I do now?

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Scenario 1 : I can't lose pursuer, which is either a Yak-1, Yak-1B, Yak-7B or spitfire, I'm on deck, and he's so close so I cannot escape through spiral climb or just by running away in straight line, then I do the following : 

Cut throttle (not to 0%), start doing rolls and maneuvers* , make yourself a hard target, sudden negative G inputs (109 handles those well). The idea is to make target either overshoot (best-case scenario) or go vertical to come back on you at low speeds. The "low speed part" means that Power to Weight becomes a crucial part in the fight. So use your better power to weight ratio (Feel free to abuse engine) to force a knife fight where there is a major VERTICAL component (aka, don't just flat turn). Don't make maneuvers to the right but make sure to guide the dogfight so you're always maneuvering to the left as it goes better with engine torque (which is major component in slow fight with high throttle). In the fight itself, seek for moments where you can disengage and use your Power to Weight ratio to just pick up speed and leave your opponent asap. If possible, kill opponent of course.

 

Scenario 2 :  I can't lose pursuer, which is either a Lagg-3 or La-5, I'm on deck, and he's so close so I cannot escape through spiral climb or just by running away in straight line, then I do the following

Needs some maneuvers to first throw off aim of opponent, then proceed in left hand flat turn and outturn opponent. 109's flat turn better than LaGG's and La-5's, and has better vertical maneuvering. The issue becomes then to deny your pursuer the 1 or 2 or 3 (depends on speed, position, etcetc) firing solutions he'll try to get before you get in your turns where you're out of his gunsight.

 

 

 

It goes without saying that success is definitely not guaranteed. Against a player of my skill level, I'd estimate I have a 25%-30% chance to survive a fight in an F-4 against a Yak-1B in the case of scenario 1. Especially the first part is dangerous, once the close quarter combat starts, there are often moments where you can just break off the combat and just run away.

 

*  "roll and maneuvers" is a rather vague description i know, but it's matter of practice and experience. Being able to pull the good maneuvers correctly, on time as to avoid the shots of an enemy in your 6 while trying to make said enemy overshoot, is a skill that cannot be explained imho. It can only be learned through practice and getting blasted out of the skies multiple times

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

[...]

anelite SWAT member disarmed me, tied my hands behind my back and made me kneel infront of him at gunpoint - what can I do now?

Nice description of what having a Yak on your 6 is like

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First thing: 109 can be VERY good in dogfight (scissors and barrel rolls, not flat turn fights). Especially if you manage your elevator trim and flaps.

 

You can find a lot of video (BFM Requiem's tutorials, look for bfm requiem on youtube) to explain some defensive manouvers. 

Especially flat scissors and rolling scissors/barrel rolls (109 is very good at tight barrel rolls). I've never watched those ones but I'm sure they are good, knowing how he work. 

 

In my case, when ennemy is already in range, I use this kind of manouver (alternativity of positive, negative barrel rolls and scissors). It's the old IL2 but still work of course. Just keep in mind that in IL2 BOX, with the same pilot level, the Spitfire is a lethal trap... in other words, you're dead. You're only chance is if his pilot is not that good. 

 

 

If the ennemy is closing but not yet in range, very hard turn (while setting trim to +1°/0° and ~10/20° flaps) by left or right. As he was not in range, you have the time to make at least 90° of turn, so he'll have a hard deflexion shot to try (you can level wings and push at the moment he would shoot to increase chances to avoid his shot). At that moment, just before yours trajectories cross, renverse turn and engage him in barrel rolls. As he was coming in with more speed, he'll overshoot, most of the time. Here is an example (still with the old IL2), but it only show the manouver from the reverse turn

 

 

 

 

At the end, the best is to focus on SA to avoid this kind of situation (if you care about your aircraft).

Edited by F/JG300_Faucon
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If you fly a 190 or 109(except G6, that is slow as hell) having somebody on your 6 in gunrange means you f***ed up pretty bad. Stay high, stay fast and do not let enemy get on your in gunrange. Utilise your shallow climb rate and you should be OK. 

 

Now, if you are already in this situation, learning how to properly execute scissors is crucial to surviving this encounter. Working with flaps, throttle, elevator trim and most importantly, utilizing your P:W ratio is crucial as well. My advice is: Go to Berloga, hop into the G6, prepare to be handed your ass on silver plate and enjoy close quarter knife fights. Be careful, since most reds can helicopter on you like AH-64D. I will post few tips below.

 

Rule of the thumb is: The later 109, the less turning you want to do and the more vertical you want to fight. Later 109s require a lot more discipline as well. Lose discipline, you die, stay disciplined, club every enemy in sight. Utilise your power:weight ratio. Dont forget that speed is your friend. Heavy engine torque as well, it can be used to do some sick maneuvers that enemy cannot follow. Tail slip for example.

109 F-4: 

  • Stab trim:
    • For dive use -85% to -95%
    • For cruise use -75%
    • For maneuver fights around 450kph IAS use -55%
    • For stallfight use -10%, that thing turns like crazy
  • Flaps:
    • 5% for light turning
    • 10% for continuous turning
    • 15% up to 25% for slow speed maneuver fight - care, here you are really slow and even though flaps generate some lift, they are draggy as hell
    • 35% up to 55% for hammerheads etc. basically for any maneuver that consists of prophang

109 G-2:

basically the same as with F-4. However I recommend staying as fast as possible, because this plane is not that nimble and lacks automatic WEP. It has manual WEP where you can overrev your engine to maximum of 2800RPM using manual pitch and it will last you around 3 minutes. It gives really great power boost. It has better E retention though. I personally like it more.

 

109 G-4:

Dont own, dont know, I guess similar to earlier, except it has WEP so it can do tighter turn when in close quarter knife fight.

 

109 G-6:

The ultimate teacher of E fighting. Do you want to know how to conserve your energy? Fly this plane. Do you want to know how to work with drag of your airframe? Use this plane. Do you want to be frustrated as hell and emerge victorious? Use this plane. It is slower than G2, climbs a tad worse, maneuvers a tad worse. But man, when you start consistently shooting down LA5FNs and Mk IXs, man that feeling is addictive. After you master G6. You will be unbeatable in any other 109. You do not want to use that much flaps, because of the drag and it's weak engine. Learn how to fight in G6 and you will learn how to fight in every energy fighter, including 190s, Ponys, Jugs etc.

 

109 G-14: 

G6 on steroids. More nimble, faster, better climber. Stay below 5km, your engine chokes above that quickly.

 

109 K-4:

The ultimate high alt 109. It is heavy as hell, but that power! Use left hand turns to use that heavy torque, roll counterclockwise, abuse your insane power:weight ratio. After flying G6 that plane feels like a homesick angel who wants to get home. Care though, Spitfire Mk. IX can and will outclimb you in low IAS climbs. Stay fast, use your status of fastest aircraft ingame. That mk108 is deadly as well. Hard to aim, but man, when you hit, they evaporate. I love that plane. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

It has manual WEP where you can overrev your engine to maximum of 2800RPM using manual pitch and it will last you around 3 minutes.

 

It's only about 10km/h more, so imo it's quite useless. If the engine could stand 5min like this why not, but 3min... 

In hard dogfight, it's not possible to handle 2800 rpms correctly while flying. 

 

But it get interesting with K4: 

1.8 ATA 2800rpm (auto), it's 593km/h during ~13min
1.8 ATA 2600rpm, it's 599 during ~25min (so means you can use all your MW50 continously)

Edited by F/JG300_Faucon

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20 hours ago, =11=Herne said:

 

Why left ? is it tighter because of engine torque ? 

 

 

To quote myself from a different thread:

 

The OPPOSITE of whichever way you have to step on the rudder to center the Slip Ball indicates which way the plane's best/most stable turn tendencies are.  Russian planes that have strong right turn tendencies vs. 109's that have strong left turn tendencies LOVE it when they can force a 109 into a right-turn game and vice versa.  It helps to also know which way your prop spins to figure out which way it turns better too. 

 

Knowing an opponent plane's turn tendencies can also be very useful in forcing an overshoot during an emergency break turn.  If at all possible, break opposite of their turn tendency and try to force a fight that favors your plane's turning tendency and disfavors theirs.  If you happen to be flying a plane with an identical turn tendency, when possible, break opposite of the opponent's tendency, then once clear, (and again, if possible) turn into your plane's best turn tendency as quickly as you can.  Be sure take a moment to assess the opponent's position after the break turn before you do though.  It's not guaranteed, but you might buy extra time to gain the advantage.     

 

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51 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

It's only about 10km/h more, so imo it's quite useless. If the engine could stand 5min like this why not, but 3min... 

In hard dogfight, it's not possible to handle 2800 rpms correctly while flying. 

 

But it get interesting with K4: 

1.8 ATA 2800rpm (auto), it's 593km/h during ~13min
1.8 ATA 2600rpm, it's 599 during ~25min (so means you can use all your MW50 continously)

Except that extra RPM translates into roughly 3 meters per second better climbrate, which is the difference between doing a hammerhead on a stalling Yak1b or stalling into it's gunfire. It saved my ass more often than I'd like to admit.

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6 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Except that extra RPM translates into roughly 3 meters per second better climbrate, which is the difference between doing a hammerhead on a stalling Yak1b or stalling into it's gunfire. It saved my ass more often than I'd like to admit.

 

So, may be interesting ok... But, must be really hard to manage the dogfight and sight RPMs to keep 2800. Especially with G2 where engine does exacly the same sound at and over 2600.

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Faucon: it is hard, but it pays off. Most of the time I engage it in steep climbs where there is no chance to overrev the engine. However the very moment you nose down, you must enable auto pitch.

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