Jump to content
SeaW0lf

Skins - dirt or no dirt?

Recommended Posts

What do you guys think? From the skin that I'm making for the Sopwith Camel, the layer "dirt" is sort of a watershed. With no dirt it looks clearer, new, as it should be when you first get the plane - if you are high ranked in the squadron I suppose. 

 

From the skins I've been seeing, people are either going for the more clean approach or the more grinded / worn approach. And even with no dirt there is still the worn out metals and other worn out layers for different parts. It is just that dirt gives a darker look.

 

Right now I'm not clear which approach should I use. Or I might work with the dirt layer and apply it just in some areas.

 

What do you artists think?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any approach is correct. But the addition of a dirt layer gives you more work.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, 4driano said:

Any approach is correct. But the addition of a dirt layer gives you more work.

 

The template skin already comes with a dirt layer. I was playing around with them and at least for the Camel, the dirt layer (or no dirt layer) will give a different look. Not that people will note the difference in flight (I suppose not), but I see two different approaches. I think ROF had cleaner skins in general. The template did not have much dirt or worn out parts. So I'm split in between the two styles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

Here's clean version. 

 

Larner made all of ours. He is our resident expert for sure.

 

It is funny because one day I like the clean one, on the other, the dirty one 😂 hence the question 😄 And thanks for showing the two versions. It is one more reference to compare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I requested that mine be the most absolute dirtiest of the squadron and it is by far. If you download our newest skin pack there are around 20 planes in it all with varying degrees of dirtiness. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, US103_Talbot said:

I requested that mine be the most absolute dirtiest of the squadron and it is by far. If you download our newest skin pack there are around 20 planes in it all with varying degrees of dirtiness. 

 

Cool, I'll do that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's your plane. Both approaches have appeal.

Back in RoF, I've made variants of the same skin personal for Fokker D.VII and D.VIIF. D.VII is pristine new, no dirt. D.VIIF has dirt, top wing replaced (and replacement has different lozenge than rest of the plane) and engine cowling cutout. I hope to bring both to FC as early and late variant of same plane :D.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the RoF skins were generally too clean. 

 

Operating from a grass field, with engines that spewed castor oil and dirty exhaust fumes, I think the canvas would get very grubby, very quickly. Most period photographs give me the impression that paint chipped and peeled quickly - this isn't modern 2 pack paint. Roundels often look quite faded. The whole endless argument about 'what colour was PC10' is directly related to the fact that the dope faded quickly and changed colour as a result of exposure to the elements and general grime. These machines were, if not exactly disposable, not designed to last twenty or thirty years in service in the way a modern jet is intended to last. Compare a working vehicle to a concourse queen that gets trailered to a car show - and these were working vehicles.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like dirty skins, much more to say about themselves. When making skins in cliffs I'd add tiny details of weathering so as to make each pilot's aircraft unique. I usually switch to a 'clean' skin when I get shot down in persistent campaign 😛

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have yet to work out the best way of making a realistic looking 'patch'. I've tried adding a bit of shadow and I have tried adding an outline border, but it never looks quite good enough to me. 

 

I often use a very little of the watercolour filter to 'soften' insignia and stencils to give them a less clean edge, and I usually add a bit of monochromatic noise to solid colours.

 

The exception to this is, obviously, lozenge, which was printed onto the fabric, not painted on ( in most cases ) so the edges would not blur - but it does appear that lozenge faded very quickly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SeaWolf, you can set the "opacity" of each layer with PHOTOSHOP. 
So you could have "inbetween statuses" of dirt.

 

From what I have read, the German mechanics kept the aircraft very tidy and cleaned them, painted them, fixed bullet holes etc.
I guess the Entente did it similar, but don't know.
I have read about planes being dirty or mud-covered, when they had quick advances in wet weather and landed on conquered
enemy airfields with no own workshops, tools, brushes and brooms. But generally, they were quite aware, that they were given
the latest and most advanced weapons for the time, and they treated them carefully.

 

Also, there was often a lot of time at their hands, and from my own army time I remember only too well what would be on the schedule
for such days: cleaning and maintenance. The pilots went to the hangars or tents and talked with the chief mechanic about the planes,
about repairs, about bracing the wires, about attachments for flares or rear mirrors etc., about personal paint jobs.
I guess they handled their kites a bit like many people today handle their new car. Keep it neat and good-looking.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

From what I have read, the German mechanics kept the aircraft very tidy and cleaned them, painted them, fixed bullet holes etc.
I guess the Entente did it similar, but don't know.

 

Yeah, I would imagine so. Especially because a clean tidy plane flew faster than a dirty one. It influenced the drag. I think that they could not get rid of stains of oil, but dirt overall I imagine they cleaned every day.

Edited by SeaW0lf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the logical thing is to do this: Get a piece of old linen. Paint it with a cellulose paint. Leave it outside in wind and rain for a week or so, then spray oil over it, dip it in mud, then tie it to the radio ariel of your car for a week. Then try and sponge it clean, with ordinary soap and a bit of cold water. See if it looks like a 'Persil' advert. I bet it doesn't.

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, SP1969 said:

I think the logical thing is to do this: Get a piece of old linen. Paint it with a cellulose paint. Leave it outside in wind and rain for a week or so, then spray oil over it, dip it in mud, then tie it to the radio ariel of your car for a week. Then try and sponge it clean, with ordinary soap and a bit of cold water. See if it looks like a 'Persil' advert. I bet it doesn't.

 

But the historic replicas we have nowadays are all clean and tidy. Not the same strain on them, but some are flying for years now, and they look new. The dirt effect could replicate the condition of a campaign during a rainy season or such, but I suppose the machines looked clean whenever possible. At least the top linen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you just pay attention to where the exhaust is on the planes in historical pics, you can tell some were "clean" and others sometimes dirty just based on the exhaust residue on insignias or numbers there at the exhaust opening.

 

I was also reading an article in cross and cockade the other day written by a pilot giving advice to new guys which specifically mentioned keeping a plane clean of mud as it affected performance or something.

 

At the end of the day SOME weathering should be on there, if you like that, as opposed to crisp colors. It's all a matter of taste I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

At the end of the day SOME weathering should be on there, if you like that, as opposed to crisp colors.

 

I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, SP1969 said:

 Then try and sponge it clean, with ordinary soap and a bit of cold water. See if it looks like a 'Persil' advert. I bet it doesn't.

 

With PERSIL, all the fabric would be sheer WHITE, SP1969:crazy:

 

That's why I fly the Albatros. Wooden fuselage, varnished. :dance:

 

Before the Lozenge, the wing surfaces were painted with real paint. They cleaned them, and they painted them over.

Aircraft which were mostly covered with fabric, showed more "aging". I read that the outspitted Castor oil "ate" the color.

 

Here is more than enough "inspiration" for all who like to add "weathering".

 

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7cf7e9f7dec91b2f23fadccf4ee1df0d&topic=2015.msg32720#msg32720


Obviously, the guys at Peter Jackson's "Vintage Aviator" are not as tidy and disciplined as any officers and mechanics of the Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte.
Mmuahahahahaaa!!! 

 

 

nov272011009.jpg

 

 

 

Okay - before the Brits start another war against me: here is some oil staining on an Albatros... :russian_ru:

 

Albatros Oil Stains.jpg

Edited by Wolfram-Harms
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

French did not use real paint but coatings.

There is not a lot of photo's showing the underwings but it seems it was not very dirt.

 

My two cents.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Damn it Carruthers, you washed the Strutter at 60 degrees and now we have a Pup!'

 

In all seriousness, a rotary engine does not scavenge oil at all, it is a total loss system. 

 

All of the coolant blows directly into the slipstream, over the pilot, over the fuselage and over the wings.

 

Total loss system.

 

4 gallons of burnt oil squirted over everything each time it flew.

 

Pilots were... regular, to the point where alcohol was drunk sometimes to seize things up a bit - Yeates refers to this in 'Winged Victory' somewhere, if I recall correctly.

Edited by SP1969

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dirt definately. Makes it look like it’s actually seen flying time. Visual immersion level.

Edited by BornToBattle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even the most modern planes are pretty filthy after just one flight. We make a fair bit of money cleaning them up so the "filthy" rich owners think they have a spotless plane.

Citations, Lears, Phenoms... they all have oil streaks from the gang drains at least. All turboprops are sooted up from the exhaust.

 

WWI planes should be especially nasty as noted above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/18/2019 at 12:45 PM, SP1969 said:

'Damn it Carruthers, you washed the Strutter at 60 degrees and now we have a Pup!'

 

Muahahahahaaa!!! 
The Pup was a fine aircraft! Only just not a very dangerous warcraft with one "Pop-pop-pop!" slow machine gun.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly wasn't dangerous in RoF, post 2014, I'll grant you that....

 

On another note, SeaWolf has posted a lovely bit of porn over on another thread, they're absolutely filthy, those birds, a must see.....

Edited by SP1969

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2019 at 5:26 AM, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

With PERSIL, all the fabric would be sheer WHITE, SP1969:crazy:

 

That's why I fly the Albatros. Wooden fuselage, varnished. :dance:

 

Before the Lozenge, the wing surfaces were painted with real paint. They cleaned them, and they painted them over.

Aircraft which were mostly covered with fabric, showed more "aging". I read that the outspitted Castor oil "ate" the color.

 

Here is more than enough "inspiration" for all who like to add "weathering".

 

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7cf7e9f7dec91b2f23fadccf4ee1df0d&topic=2015.msg32720#msg32720


Obviously, the guys at Peter Jackson's "Vintage Aviator" are not as tidy and disciplined as any officers and mechanics of the Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte.
Mmuahahahahaaa!!! 

 

 

nov272011009.jpg

 

 

 

Okay - before the Brits start another war against me: here is some oil staining on an Albatros... :russian_ru:

 

Albatros Oil Stains.jpg

This looks great...and real.

On 2/24/2019 at 11:46 PM, II./JG1_Vonrd said:

Even the most modern planes are pretty filthy after just one flight. We make a fair bit of money cleaning them up so the "filthy" rich owners think they have a spotless plane.

Citations, Lears, Phenoms... they all have oil streaks from the gang drains at least. All turboprops are sooted up from the exhaust.

 

WWI planes should be especially nasty as noted above.

+1 to this!

 

I spent many hours on my back on the creepy-crawly thinking “Damn. It’s a know wonder these things can even fly at all with all these fluid leaks everywhere”. But all it takes is a small amount of fluid spreading to make it look far more than it actually is quantity- wise. I think the only planes I’ve ever seen that were pretty pristine have been in museums. I would also think that given the fact we are talking about a combat enviroment and particularly seeing what the skins were made of during WW1 this would only lend itself to dirt, smoke and fluid debris to accumulate at a much faster rate than a civilian counterpart.

 

The planes I used to be around were the civilian models, both heavy and light and I don’t care how well cared for and clean it looked to the casual observer, get close enough and start looking around and you’ll see signs of what we are talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×