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stupor-mundi

Concerns about future UI, playability, in view of the Tiger

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I usually drive a T34, one of the 'first generation' or maybe zero'st generation of tanks in the sim.

Now that on multiplayer there's often a lack of blue tankers, certainly because of the current DM, and also I like to believe because they get pissed off at being blown up by AC, I sometimes feel compelled to drive a Tiger. It almost feels like a chore. (it feels the same way driving a KV, which few people ever do)

 

Not so much because of the DM, but a combination of 3 things:

A) the way movement/propulsion is modelled

B) the slow turret traverse

C) the UI

 

A:

Sure, the T34 was in reality a faster tank, but beyond that there's something viscerally unpleasant about the sluggishness of getting Tiger (and KV) to go in the direction you desire. Most likely, the way Tiger and KV are modeled is more realistic, and the way the (pre-TC) T34 was modeled will have been, overly generous/optimistic. Nonetheless, the new, assumed-more-realistic way takes away a lot of the fun. The tiger can eventually get somewhat quick, but the vibrations are modeled so excessively that you loose a lot of situational awareness when looking out the cupola. I find this unjustified because the head, and more so the eye, compensate, even if the commander's body is rattled about.

 

B:

 

Is probably realistic. In itself, isn't a problem, but the issue arises in combination with:

 

C :

Much of the joy of piloting the T34 (as a single operator) lies in, driving around (for instance through a forest, dodging the trees), looking around as the commander (hatch open), seeing a target, having the turret already pointing in the correct direction, with one button press jumping into the gunner's position, and being able to visually pick up exactly where one was looking at.

A number of things screw this up in the Tiger. Closing the hatch is another button press (you could skip that, but is more risky). More stations mean you don't have 1 toggle button to jump between commander and gunner. You have the button for cycling between stations, but frankly I don't give a F*** about the other stations, 99.9% of the time.

The turret doesn't follow the 'looking around' (mouse or head-tracking) of the commander. I understand you might not want that all of the time, but being able to toggle this behaviour would be a HUGE plus. The lack of this wouldn't be such a killer if the turret traverse weren't so slow. Missing this ability in the T34 wouldn't hurt you so much because you'd still get the turret pointing where you want fairly quickly...

When you jump into the gunner position, even if you had the mouse (neutral) for the position you were looking at (as commander), it's now in some 'off' position as the gunner, and you have to yank the mouse around until you find neutral.

Keep in mind, the situation to imagine here is that you're driving through a forest, having the turret pointed sideways in the direction of a potential/suspected target. Every couple of seconds you are jumping between cupola and gunner, so that you keep situational awareness and dont bump into trees. The clunky interface in the Tiger makes, what was fun to do in the T34, difficult and unpleasant in the Tiger.

 

As more new generation tanks are rolled out, no doubt the 0 generation T34 and Pz3 will be retired eventually. If the way the tiger was done is a prototype of what the T34/85 will be, I'm quite afraid tanking in TC might not be very much fun in the future.

 

Edited by stupor-mundi
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With the exception of the hoping into the different crew positions, which could have been implemented a little better (like a separate hotkey for each position), I like the more realistic features. The slow turret rotation, the vibrations, and all ... the only thing that currently turns me off is the DM. I know it will get sorted soon but it is kind of shitty when u spot the enemy first and hit him first and u still end up being killed because your 2-3 hits before he even shots back don't do anything. Once that is sorted, you can be sure TC will be more populated by blue tankers.

 

Cheers!

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I look forward to a MP tank battle where we have tanks crewed 100% by human players (although perhaps locking the commander position if you do not own the game as this might encourage more players to buy the game).  This franchise side of IL2 could be really good if it works out well, however, perhaps all of the things above and more that have been discussed by numerous players, perhaps needs to be resolved! 

 

I concur with SCG_Riksen, that until something is done, being a blue player has no advantages and the turkey shoot will continue!

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

Edited by Haza
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I look forward to a MP tank battle where we have tanks crewed 100% by human plyers.Especially paying all that money to be a radioman!Yay!What a joy it will be!
 

 

Spoiler

radio.thumb.jpg.70b991a0d2f47a9cf11f20a0b947bd05.jpg

 

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Just now, RIVALDO said:

I look forward to a MP tank battle where we have tanks crewed 100% by human plyers.Especially paying all that money to be a radioman!Yay!What a joy it will be!
 

 

  Hide contents

radio.thumb.jpg.70b991a0d2f47a9cf11f20a0b947bd05.jpg

 

 

Isn't the radio operator the LMG gunner as well?

If I recall, I did mentioned that the commander position would be locked as if I'm correct, you don't have to own TC to actually get into a tank to play if somebody else owns it in game! Therefore, only paying TC customers should be able to perhaps either drive or be the commander in MP servers and as such limit the accessibility to those who don't own it!

Therefore, it would be a great way of getting guys interested by letting them become part of the crew, without taking over your tank when you move positions!

 

It was only an idea to get more players interested, but if you want to mock me then carry on, but at least read and understand what was written and what I was eluding to.

 

 

Regards

Edited by Haza
A lot of money? LM**O

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No intent to mock you at all.Wow.

Edited by RIVALDO

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I haven' tried the Tiger yet but I have had some experience in armored vehicles over the years.  Some, like the old M113 that I rode it had a fair amount of vibration, especially at speed.

 

What may not be modeled is the human's ability to compensate for that vibration.  The eyes can adjust and maintain visual control under most cases of vibration.  Probably this should be modeled so that while the vehicle is vibrating a person should be able to maintain the ability to view without excessive interference.  Using any kind of sights would be different but the Mark 1 eyeball should be able to compensate for the vibration.

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Just now, WklinkTomCofield said:

I haven' tried the Tiger yet but I have had some experience in armored vehicles over the years.  Some, like the old M113 that I rode it had a fair amount of vibration, especially at speed.

 

What may not be modeled is the human's ability to compensate for that vibration.  The eyes can adjust and maintain visual control under most cases of vibration.  Probably this should be modeled so that while the vehicle is vibrating a person should be able to maintain the ability to view without excessive interference.  Using any kind of sights would be different but the Mark 1 eyeball should be able to compensate for the vibration.

 

Tom,

 

To be honest, TC Cap is still in early access, so there are lots of things that hopefully the team will address!  However, I would encourage you to try the Tiger and all of the other stuff and if you have Real life experience that could help these developers, then I would encourage you to raise those issues in the suggestions area!

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

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A lot of it is time.  I have bought all of these modules over the years thinking, 'Ok, after this (insert time consuming event) I will have time to play around more with this game.'  Of course right after that is another time consuming event which takes up my time.  I want to, it is just getting the time.

 

And all of my time was spent in modern AFVs, like I'm sure some of us here.  The oldest thing I drove was an M113A2, a Vietnam war piece that the US Army kept around until the mid 90's.  Armor was M60s and M1s, not exactly antiques like the Tiger, or T-34.

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:13 PM, SCG_Riksen said:

With the exception of the hoping into the different crew positions, which could have been implemented a little better (like a separate hotkey for each position), I like the more realistic features. The slow turret rotation, the vibrations, and all ... the only thing that currently turns me off is the DM. I know it will get sorted soon but it is kind of shitty when u spot the enemy first and hit him first and u still end up being killed because your 2-3 hits before he even shots back don't do anything. Once that is sorted, you can be sure TC will be more populated by blue tankers.

 

Cheers!

 

I'll preface this by saying I have not tested with tanks, but the multi-crew planes have hotkeys for each position since a few patches ago.

Are you guys sure this isn't doable in tanks?

 

 

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You are correct, Jade.  It is in fact doable, as I have done it myself.

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The Panther Ausf. D and Tiger I Ausf. H featured a hydraulic turret traverse system that could perform a 360-degree rotation in 60 seconds (6°/sec.), independent of engine speed, or a 360-degree rotation in 19 seconds (19°/sec.) with the engine at 2,000 rpm.


That was the reason why Tiger's drivers were always ready to increase engine RPM even standing still to increase turret traverse speed for the gunner.

 

Quote

 

Later the Boehringer-Sturm L4S hydraulic motor saw service on the Panther Ausf. A and G and the Tiger II, and featured a hydraulic traverse that varied with engine speed. The motor was linked to the main engine via a secondary drive shaft. In the gunner’s station, a “high” and “low” range switch allowed the gunner some control over the turret traverse speed. Here are the 360-degree traverse times for the Tiger II:

low gear, independent of engine speed: 60 seconds
high gear, engine at 1,000 rpm: 36 seconds (46 seconds for the Panther)
high gear, engine at 1,500 rpm: 25 seconds
high gear, engine at 2,000 rpm: 19 seconds
high gear, engine at redline 3,000 rpm: 10 seconds (15 seconds for Panther)

 

 

(Remember all manual, electric and hydraulic treverse mechanisms depended on tank's tilt angle on uneven terrain; i.e. KV-2 tank tilted more than ~20° was not able to rotate it's turret at all from the lowest position to the tilted side of the tank due to the mass ot the turret in relation to the force of mechanism.)

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