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4 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

Pretty unfair??? What kind of retard are you? Seams that you missed a lot of the real history. Not all real pilots were war criminals

or convinced nazis, but some of them were quite opportunists.

 

Anyway - to use the word fair in conjunction with war is not appropriate. Sorry.

 

>> Not all real pilots were war criminals or convinced nazis, but some of them were quite opportunists.

What? You get me wrong. This has nothing to do with Nazis and Hitler itself.

The Focus was Pilots and their duty and not Hitler!

 

okay guys - calm down. You dont understand what I mean. Wont answer further posts

 

Edited by RoteDreizehn
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1 minute ago, RoteDreizehn said:

you dont understand what my message was.... however...

 

... they would have been nuked

 thats true. but maybe both sides if there were enough time...

My apologies if I had misread you.

 

Reagarding the "nuked" comment, Germany never provided the means for Heisenberg, Weizsächer et.al. to ever come close to a bomb. Also here, those two very profilic persons claimed that they woudl never have made such a weapon, but this also should be taken with a grain of salt. we do know that Heisenberg was against nuclear weapons in the fifties, when it such arms were being discussed.

 

What remains is we have what we have, and this is in our case a somewhat combat ready fighter jet with impressive weapons. If I could forecast its future use, then I think it would be that it will be mainly used as a super fast IL-2, the mother of all vulchers and only a handful of very good and patient flyers will take her as an interceptor. Hitler will be right. ;)

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15 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

My apologies if I had misread you.

 

Reagarding the "nuked" comment, Germany never provided the means for Heisenberg, Weizsächer et.al. to ever come close to a bomb. Also here, those two very profilic persons claimed that they woudl never have made such a weapon, but this also should be taken with a grain of salt. we do know that Heisenberg was against nuclear weapons in the fifties, when it such arms were being discussed.

 

What remains is we have what we have, and this is in our case a somewhat combat ready fighter jet with impressive weapons. If I could forecast its future use, then I think it would be that it will be mainly used as a super fast IL-2, the mother of all vulchers and only a handful of very good and patient flyers will take her as an interceptor. Hitler will be right. ;)

 

maybe, but Hitler was absolutly wrong and prefers only big weapons. The ME 262 has been designed as a Fighter not as a Bomber. 

Galland was absolutly right to use is as a fighter. However, the JUMO 003/004 Engines were very

unstable and the malfunctions came unexpected what is a mess for each pilot.. 

 

 

 

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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Just now, RoteDreizehn said:

maybe, but Hitler was absolutly wrong and prefers only big weapons. The ME 262 has been design as a Fighter not as a Bomber. 

Galland was absolutly right to use is as a fighter. However, the JUMO 003/004 Engines were very

unstable and the malfunctions came unexpectedly what is a mess for each pilot..

All may be true, what I said is what I expect to see on WoL (and other servers). Just think of what it means in terms of winning a map if you can deliver a 500 kg bomb at twice the speed of the P-40. And would you expect the 262 surpassing the 109K in air to air kills? If so, then people start to have fun with fleeing Peshkas when you're using the R4M. But that would have hardly an effect on winning the map.

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33 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I think it would be that it will be mainly used as a super fast IL-2, the mother of all vulchers and only a handful of very good and patient flyers will take her as an interceptor

 

I don't quite agree, as attaching bombs will reduce its speed to interceptable and when that happens, it is just a Pe-2 without the rear gunner. Also flying fast reduces the accuracy of the bomb run and the MK108 is not really a ground attack cannon. Additionally the Me262 is relatively vulnerable to all sorts of small arms fire, something dedicated ground attack aircraft aren't to that degree.

 

Also don't forget that the 500kg of bombs also have a significant impact on the CoG and dropping them causes all sorts of funny behaviour. You shouldn't trim up or pull up while releasing them...

 

In Il-2 1946 I found Me262 fighter bombers difficult yet not impossible to deal with, but left alone they weren't much more than a nuisance. Typically they'd crash, miss their target or light up as they attacked, sometimes all of these. As a fighter, however, I found them to be extremely dangerous and that amplified with the use of proper tactics. To properly counter a well flown one coordinated team work was almost mandatory.

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35 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

All may be true, what I said is what I expect to see on WoL (and other servers). Just think of what it means in terms of winning a map if you can deliver a 500 kg bomb at twice the speed of the P-40. And would you expect the 262 surpassing the 109K in air to air kills? If so, then people start to have fun with fleeing Peshkas when you're using the R4M. But that would have hardly an effect on winning the map.

 

>>if you can deliver a 500 kg bomb at twice the speed of the P-40

this wont happend because if the me262 carry two 250 kg bombs, the speed comes down to the allies planes.

The me262 was designed as fighter.... As Bomber vulnerable..

 

>>And would you expect the 262 surpassing the 109K in air to air kills?

i think in boom and zoom tactics without bombs it could be happend.

 

We will see how the dev´s will implement the me262. Will be interesting the complaints of each side which will come... 🙂

 

 

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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3 minutes ago, JtD said:

In Il-2 1946 I found Me262 fighter bombers difficult yet not impossible to deal with, but left alone they weren't much more than a nuisance. Typically they'd crash, miss their target or light up as they attacked, sometimes all of these. As a fighter, however, I found them to be extremely dangerous and that amplified with the use of proper tactics. To properly counter a well flown one coordinated team work was almost mandatory.

Interesting. I never (well, almost never) flew the 262 online in '46, so I can't tell from that prespective.

 

2 minutes ago, RoteDreizehn said:

this wont happend because if the me262 carry two 250 kg bombs, the speed comes down to the allies planes.

The me262 was designed as fighter.... As Bomber vulnerable..

I can think of one strategy. On WoL, targets are reasonably close from "home", so what I'd be doing is climb to ~6 k meters and then take a shallow dive toward the target as soon as I enter nasty airspace. As long as I can maintain ~750 km/h in that dive toward the target, I'm reasonably safe. You basically have one chance to hit and you strike at a shallow angle to be able to pull up. two 250 kg bombs deliver a lot of punch. Maintain your speed and just leave the area at full bore.

 

If you are doing 700 km/h on the deck you require the Yak to go at "I'm about to lose my control surfaces speed". Mustans and Thunderbolts will be more of a nuisance then (anyone said Tempest?). Also back then, the 262a1 had a habit of doing such shallow dives on allied airfields, usually dropping canister bombs (devs, can we have them?? :)), so I guess it should be doable in the game as well.

 

But this

9 minutes ago, JtD said:

Also don't forget that the 500kg of bombs also have a significant impact on the CoG and dropping them causes all sorts of funny behaviour. You shouldn't trim up or pull up while releasing them...

really makes me eager to try it. I don't doubt that the devs will deliver a nice product.

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A good video from Military History Visualized about the Me 262 development. It wasn't really delayed, but more like rushed into service.

 

 

As for how slowed down by bombs it would be. What are the exact numbers? Because for a plane that makes around 800 km/h at sea level, if its dragged down to 700 km/h it would still be pretty hard to intercept.

 

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8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I can think of one strategy. On WoL, targets are reasonably close from "home", so what I'd be doing is climb to ~6 k meters and then take a shallow dive toward the target as soon as I enter nasty airspace. As long as I can maintain ~750 km/h in that dive toward the target, I'm reasonably safe. You basically have one chance to hit and you strike at a shallow angle to be able to pull up. two 250 kg bombs deliver a lot of punch. Maintain your speed and just leave the area at full bore.

 

If you are doing 700 km/h on the deck you require the Yak to go at "I'm about to lose my control surfaces speed". Mustans and Thunderbolts will be more of a nuisance then (anyone said Tempest?). Also back then, the 262a1 had a habit of doing such shallow dives on allied airfields, usually dropping canister bombs (devs, can we have them?? :)), so I guess it should be doable in the game as well.

 

 

is worth a try  😎 Hopefully the engines are working 🙂

 

But I think the Dev´s will maybe temper the me262 that the Allies are not frustrated  

Otherwise the complains are - the me262 is too superior 😉

We will see...

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If I use my experience in '46 as some kind of predictor, which is really a difficult thing to do as the two sims are very different, I think it will go down like this...

 

When used as a hit and run bomber it will be an effective annoyance to the Allied side.  Will it turn the tables in the tactical battle on any online server, I doubt it, especially if it has properly limited numbers.  The mission profiles will suit those pilots who enjoy surviving their sortie and who have the patience to not run many of them as you will have to be very cagey in your exfil from the combat area, which will take time, even at 500mph.

 

In the fighter role it will only be successful in the hands of a very very disciplined pilot that is careful with his engine management and absolutely refuses the turn fight, and I mean NEVER turn with an Allied fighter.  Playing a very careful BnZ game the 262 will be untouchable, but on the same token it's kill numbers will be low because of the already mentioned closure rate and gunnery issues.  Again, satisfying for the very good pilot, but it wont' affect the outcome of a dedicated Allied team playing the tactical game of "winning the map".   And woe to the 262 pilot that wants to "mix it up" with the Allied prop jobs. It will be a short, fiery experience.  As I have related before, the first time I saw a 262 online in Forgotten Battles, the over confident pilot of said aircraft met his demise to the guns of my Brewster B239.

 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the new sim.

 

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7 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

If I use my experience in '46 as some kind of predictor, which is really a difficult thing to do as the two sims are very different, I think it will go down like this...

 

When used as a hit and run bomber it will be an effective annoyance to the Allied side.  Will it turn the tables in the tactical battle on any online server, I doubt it, especially if it has properly limited numbers.  The mission profiles will suit those pilots who enjoy surviving their sortie and who have the patience to not run many of them as you will have to be very cagey in your exfil from the combat area, which will take time, even at 500mph.

 

In the fighter role it will only be successful in the hands of a very very disciplined pilot that is careful with his engine management and absolutely refuses the turn fight, and I mean NEVER turn with an Allied fighter.  Playing a very careful BnZ game the 262 will be untouchable, but on the same token it's kill numbers will be low because of the already mentioned closure rate and gunnery issues.  Again, satisfying for the very good pilot, but it wont' affect the outcome of a dedicated Allied team playing the tactical game of "winning the map".   And woe to the 262 pilot that wants to "mix it up" with the Allied prop jobs. It will be a short, fiery experience.  As I have related before, the first time I saw a 262 online in Forgotten Battles, the over confident pilot of said aircraft met his demise to the guns of my Brewster B239.

 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the new sim.

 

 

>> Will it turn the tables in the tactical battle on any online server, I doubt it, especially if it has properly limited numbers.

limited numbers in Multiplayer Mission is the key. You are right

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

When used as a hit and run bomber it will be an effective annoyance to the Allied side.  Will it turn the tables in the tactical battle on any online server, I doubt it, especially if it has properly limited numbers.  The mission profiles will suit those pilots who enjoy surviving their sortie and who have the patience to not run many of them as you will have to be very cagey in your exfil from the combat area, which will take time, even at 500mph.

 

You can do already something like that flying the Airacobra with 250kg bomb. Climb and then run on a combat (thus easy on timer) power in shallow dive toward the target. Then WEP on reduced settings for 5-6m to the safety.

It works but... is tedious and boring. To have a significant effect you would need to do such attacks repeatably for whole match. I had tried few times and had enough.

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Germany didn't defeat the allies when they had both superior numbers as well as matarial, no matter how hard of a time they gave them. Then it got worse for the Germans. Much worse. In the end, the Allies beat them at literally everything. And remember, if the Germans would have held out just some month longer, they would have been nuked. Totally unfair! Yeah. But that is what happens if you are beaten at litterally everything. "Real pilots might have done their best", but if one of those "real pilots" was in a position where his decisions mattered to some extent, he might try to cover his behind, especially since he's been working "doing his best" for the worst crime syndicate in history. So, nobody is offending anyone here.

Uhm... The second Germany declared war on Britain they were outnumbered haha!
Indeed the allies beat them at pretty much everything, you'd damn well hope so consindering the resources they had compared to the germans. 
   German pilots were no different from american pilots, they had a job to do and they did it. That is war, the common soldier is not a war criminal, neither is the common pilot. 

Edited by EAF_Sunde

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9 minutes ago, EAF_Sunde said:

Germany declared war on Britain

 

Never happened in this universe.

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4 hours ago, RoteDreizehn said:

 

>> Not all real pilots were war criminals or convinced nazis, but some of them were quite opportunists.

What? You get me wrong. This has nothing to do with Nazis and Hitler itself.

The Focus was Pilots and their duty and not Hitler!

 

okay guys - calm down. You dont understand what I mean. Wont answer further posts

 

 

Sorry mate, for being rude to you - I apologise. Now I know what you meant. Sorry again.

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1 hour ago, JtD said:

 

Never happened in this universe.

Well technically no, but they knew it would happen eventually. So if you attack Poland, knowing that eventually Britain will respond, you are the one pushing for the war, no? 
Britain declared war quicker than expected... But it was EXPECTED. 
Anything else? 😃

Edited by EAF_Sunde
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14 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

Let's get back on topic, please.
Me 262! Beautiful! 

 

Beautiful and interesting! I really like the period of WW2 in 44/45

Continuous battle, when all is lost. The last man standing.

Edited by Voidhunger

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5 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

 

Beautiful and interesting! I really like the period of WW2 in 44/45

Continuous battle, when all is lost. The last man standing.

I like the 44/45 as well, thats why I want a BoB(erlin) after BoBP.  But we are getting the ME262... I'm happy enough!

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On 2/7/2019 at 12:50 PM, Blitzen said:

As I play VRwe don’t see these screens .Could you take a moment and shoot a screenie of same? Thanks!😍

Finally, I saw it again today. Its just too beautiful that I would make a poster of it and paste it in my room wall

 

 

Screenshot_2019-02-09-20-31-43.png

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A Spitfire is beautiful.  

 

The 262 is merely purposeful.

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It will be interesting to see how the online community accepts and handles the 262.  In my experience with the old Il-2 series, it was either banned entirely or locked in as a bomber, with very distant takeoff airfields provided and just enough fuel to reach the target and return on empty to the nearest frontline airbase.

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

A Spitfire is beautiful.  

 

Agreed on that. Most sexy fighter design of WW-II. IMHO, of course 😉

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On 2/6/2019 at 12:29 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Just watch out for the Doras flying cover ... just like real life.

 

They won’t need cover.  Unlike real life, there will be so many people in Dora’s and K’s that the Allied pilots won’t get near German airfields.

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Agreed on that. Most sexy fighter design of WW-II. IMHO, of course 😉

well we all have different "tastes". I find the spitfire totally awful visually, while I find the FW 190 (A version) the sexiest. Followed close ME262, 410, and La5.

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11 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

well we all have different "tastes". I find the spitfire totally awful visually, while I find the FW 190 (A version) the sexiest. Followed close ME262, 410, and La5.

 

Heretic! Burn him at the stake! 🙂

Edited by sevenless
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3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

They won’t need cover.  Unlike real life, there will be so many people in Dora’s and K’s that the Allied pilots won’t get near German airfields.

If mission designers limit the numbers of K-4 and D-9s we wont have a problem.

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20 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

If mission designers limit the numbers of K-4 and D-9s we wont have a problem.

Since D9's and K4's are more contemporary competition I dont see a reason to limit those. You seem to be wanting to head the direction of semi-historical accuracy for online fighting, which doesnt work.

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I fail to see why people care about limitations in MP, its not like a super immersive experience like in a career. The chaos of air quake has always been a crazy and fun time for me as it always eventually seems to turn into that. 

Edited by -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor

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57 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

Since D9's and K4's are more contemporary competition I dont see a reason to limit those. You seem to be wanting to head the direction of semi-historical accuracy for online fighting, which doesnt work.

K-4s and D-9s were limited irl so I dont see why we should see as many K-4s and D-9s as A-8s or G-14/G-6s.

 

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18 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

K-4s and D-9s were limited irl so I dont see why we should see as many K-4s and D-9s as A-8s or G-14/G-6s.

 

And effectively neuter the german side of competition with misguided attempts at leveling the playing field. I knew that was your way of thinking. I used to think that way myself, I no longer do and want asymmetrical gameplay opportunities. 

 

All throughout the war and especially into the later half Germany had a sever numbers advantage.... its not fun when translated into online play. Period. Unless its coop where your opponent is AI. If you go online to dogfight you shouldn't expect servers that limit D9 and K4 to be populated. 

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4 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

And effectively neuter the german side of competition with misguided attempts at leveling the playing field. I knew that was your way of thinking. I used to think that way myself, I no longer do and want asymmetrical gameplay opportunities. 

 

All throughout the war and especially into the later half Germany had a sever numbers advantage.... its not fun when translated into online play. Period. Unless its coop where your opponent is AI. If you go online to dogfight you shouldn't expect servers that limit D9 and K4 to be populated. 

 

On actual mission focused servers I expect the D9 and K4 to be limited simple as that. G-14 and A8 are good aircraft and they can do well if the pilot is competent. How would you feel if the allied side had P-47M or Spitfire XIV in unlimited numbers? Wouldn't be very realistic and would be poor game-play.

 

I don't feel like fighting late war aircraft in unlimited numbers when the allies don't even get late war power settings. K-4s and D-9s were a rarity so I expect them to be the same way online.

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I doubt the whole server would be flying k4's and d9's though, and if that's the case that's obviously what people want to fly so why kill your server by limiting them?

 

In the end it's a flight Sim, not an actual competitive game and if you are looking for immersion multiplayer is probably the furthest thing from reality you can get. 

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33 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

And effectively neuter the german side of competition with misguided attempts at leveling the playing field. 

 

What are you talking about?  In the real war the German side was neutered by crappy pilots, limited fuel, and overwhelming allied numerical superiority.  The idea that MP servers should have unlimited uber Luftwaffe aircraft, thus stacking the side with people flying Luftwaffe, is assinine.  MP servers should absolutely try to balance the sides.  Giving one side access to all the uber planes is what results in empty servers.

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16 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

What are you talking about?  In the real war the German side was neutered by crappy pilots, limited fuel, and overwhelming allied numerical superiority.  The idea that MP servers should have unlimited uber Luftwaffe aircraft, thus stacking the side with people flying Luftwaffe, is assinine.  MP servers should absolutely try to balance the sides.  Giving one side access to all the uber planes is what results in empty servers.

Great, americans/brits get 5 planes to choose from while germans get two. GG, wont play

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The Arado Ar 234? Geez, is that thing homely looking. Hopefully it would fly better than it looks.

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Servers always balaced sides for good missions. You can do this by restricting aircraft and loadout options as well as by the kind of mission you have to succeed „to win the map“. The BoBP planes just make this more obvious, especially since we‘re getting aircraft that always perform to their theoretical limits. In case of the latest German toys, this gives even more disparity than they enjoyed in real life where the innate dangers of these toys plus the bad state of the facilities capped a lot of theoretical potential. Having everything available is actually the least realistic setting you can go for (but there is also purpose for that).

 

A good mission on a server is designed such that it makes it equally hard to win the map for both sides.

 

 

5 minutes ago, BornToBattle said:

The Arado Ar 234? Geez, is that thing homely looking. Hopefully it would fly better than it looks.

It does. It is a fine aircraft that handles very well. Eric Brown was full of praise about it.

Edited by ZachariasX

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33 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

Great, americans/brits get 5 planes to choose from while germans get two. GG, wont play

I agree but that's just a consequence of the Bodenplatte lineup. Allies get their aircraft for the whole timeframe while the Germans only get a few at the start.

 

What they should do is add a modification for the G-6 to get it's late power settings and add another German aircraft to fill in the earlier timeframe (A9 or A7 for example)

 

You shouldn't expect to see K-4s (or D9s for the most part) on a September 44 mission.

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1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

K-4s and D-9s were limited irl

 

All aircraft were limited in real life.

 

There were more K-4's and D-9's than there were G-6's. That aircraft is anachronistic for a large part of the battle.

 

Given that the G-14 is mismodelled in game, the G-10 is missing as is the DB605AS engine, the K-4 is the only stand in for about 50% of the Luftwaffe fighters at the end of the war.

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5 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

All aircraft were limited in real life.

 

There were more K-4's and D-9's than there were G-6's. That aircraft is anachronistic for a large part of the battle.

 

Given that the G-14 is mismodelled in game, the G-10 is missing as is the DB605AS engine, the K-4 is the only stand in for about 50% of the Luftwaffe fighters at the end of the war.

 

Read my post above. Point is k4 and d9 were rare compared to the A8 or G14.

And if you really want to talk about mismodeled aircraft look at the P-47, it can out-turn everything and does what it shouldnt.

 

Also, the G-6 was the most produced variant of the 109 iirc so I dont see what you mean by the K4 and d9 were more common.

Edited by Legioneod

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