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3.IAP_Vasilij

Strong cannons now weak?

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Hi all, 

 

after last updates (I guess where the correction was made about gun efficiency considering the angles of hits...) I noticed HUGE, but really HUGE degradation of efficiency of such guns like: vYa-23 in Lagg3 and BS12,7 for Mig-3.

 

Those guns were used to be pretty nice. Now they are practically useless. 

I noticed direct hits in 90° to the BF109 (was hit from the top. I saw direct hits on the wings, and body and the plane without damage were continuing in flight. I expected complete breaking of wings, but nothing happened.

 

Was such decreasing of damage of these guns really intended in such big difference?

Just question to the devs. Thanks.

 

 

 

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wings are much harder to take off. I usually go for control surfaces, those still drop if hit hard enough. I guess the Jug easy De-wing stirred the pot up enough to result in this change going through.

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23 minutes ago, E4GLEyE said:

wings are much harder to take off. I usually go for control surfaces, those still drop if hit hard enough. I guess the Jug easy De-wing stirred the pot up enough to result in this change going through.

You must be one hell of a shot.

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TBH, at first I liked the new DM. Now I think its really a bit too much compared to the old one. The perfect would be something between. It used to be to easy to take a plane down now you cant even make an surprise pass and kill a plane with full cannons blazing even in well armed fighters.

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It feels pretty inconsistant now, ub 12.7s are much worse, breddas and m2 brownings seem untouched, 37mms are trash now and 20mms are weird.  I've had 1 20mm remove the vert stab from and il2 and othertimes it takes half your ammo load.  I know my oberservations are not scientific and im not saying the old model was perfect but i think somewhere in the middle would feel right.

 

 

Edited by Joeasyrida
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Yeah my kill ratio has definitely gone down in the Spit since last update, used to be I could take one down with a couple or three short cannon bursts, now not so much.

Also at times you may have inflicted enough damage for a kill, but the enemy plane continues for a bit then goes down.

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Imho, 0.50" cals seem to match historic gun cameras and pilot encounter notes, now. A good connected burst will shot down a plane; might not be instantaneous, thought. The 37mm M4 cannon in the P-39 is way too unreliable - you need 3 (2 if you are lucky, 1 is like winning a lottery) hits to guarantee a shot down fighter, really? In practice it's much worse then other 30-37mm cannons because of M4 slow (2.5 per s) cyclic rate. 3 hits from 30 rounds magazine would be 10% of hit-ratio - just getting 1 hit is 3% and that's what you can expect per sortie. Well, the M4 is still useful against bombers where you can land few hits and strafing.

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7 minutes ago, Ehret said:

Imho, 0.50" cals seem to match historic gun cameras and pilot encounter notes, now. A good connected burst will shot down a plane; might not be instantaneous, thought. The 37mm M4 cannon in the P-39 is way too unreliable - you need 3 (2 if you are lucky, 1 is like winning a lottery) hits to guarantee a shot down fighter, really? In practice it's much worse then other 30-37mm cannons because of M4 slow (2.5 per s) cyclic rate. 3 hits from 30 rounds magazine would be 10% of hit-ratio - just getting 1 hit is 3% and that's what you can expect per sortie. Well, the M4 is still useful against bombers where you can land few hits and strafing.

Yeah it sucks, feels like the wing .30s are necessary now. I know the mk108 has more power on paper but a m4 hit seems less than half as effective which cant be right

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1 hour ago, Rjel said:

You must be one hell of a shot.

 

I think he shoots the nut that secures the cable to the control surface.

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15 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I think he shoots the nut

I usually aim for the pilot's left nut. Most distracting when attempting to evade.

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One thing is instant shooting down as before (arcade) and shooting them down now.

Dont wait for tail to come off or wing.

Get a good pass and leave, if you get good hits its done, might not be instant as before.

Definitely better now than what it used to be.

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I like the new DM, it seems closer to many accounts from both victors and victims across different air forces.

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I've nailed several AI fighters with the P-47 that at first glance weren't hit hard but within a few seconds the pilot has bailed. When watching the replay the target is peppered from nose to tail or wing tip to wing tip. I find it most realistic.

Edited by Rjel
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3 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

One thing is instant shooting down as before (arcade) and shooting them down now.

Dont wait for tail to come off or wing.

Get a good pass and leave, if you get good hits its done, might not be instant as before.

Definitely better now than what it used to be.

 

Precisely. Damage isn't a catastrophic anymore, as you need to actually hit the wing spar and such to take it off, but very often what looks like moderate damage (to our eyes accustomed to the old damage model) is fatal.

 

The nice part is those catastrophic hits STILL can happen, you just have to hit it just right. I've taken wings off 190s in my trusty Yak-1 (NOT the 1b), it's definitely possible.

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Yes is a great move away from arcadish shoot and see the plane destroyed and wings or tail come apart as before.

Possible for sure 5 kills in Berloga with a 109 no wing pods, 6 kills in quick mission.

Killed a Pe2 in Knights in one pass too. (In this case did a good pass and just left it).

You dont have to see it break apart, take the challenge , its more rewarding and more realistic now.

 

Developers are moving away from just shoot and kill, which is great.

Edited by II./JG77_motoadve
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Yeap - definitely not shot boom like it was in the past.  My goto guns are a set of .50cals on the US planes.  P40 and P47.  They just tear aircraft apart.  The 37mm feels like a spud gun and takes a couple well placed hits to bring down larger planes.  Not tested the 30mm German version yet.

 

I think the 12.7 on the mig would be ok if it was loaded with armor piercing rounds like the US planes did.

 

Anyway, makes for a more intense fight in a furball and I usually will peal off a target fighter if I get them black smoking.  Seem to be coming up against more planes in missions now days like 2 to 3 flights against 1

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8 hours ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

Hi all, 

 

after last updates (I guess where the correction was made about gun efficiency considering the angles of hits...) I noticed HUGE, but really HUGE degradation of efficiency of such guns like: vYa-23 in Lagg3 and BS12,7 for Mig-3.

 

Those guns were used to be pretty nice. Now they are practically useless. 

I noticed direct hits in 90° to the BF109 (was hit from the top. I saw direct hits on the wings, and body and the plane without damage were continuing in flight. I expected complete breaking of wings, but nothing happened.

 

Was such decreasing of damage of these guns really intended in such big difference?

Just question to the devs. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Just what makes you think a 12.7mm should saw off an entire wing? 

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I've flown the Lagg a bit more often recently and I feel like the 23mm in the Lagg is just as good as it always was. Planes just don't fall apart as easily anymore, but you still can set them on fire or cause critical damage in a short burst.

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9 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

One thing is instant shooting down as before (arcade) and shooting them down now.

Dont wait for tail to come off or wing.

Get a good pass and leave, if you get good hits its done, might not be instant as before.

Definitely better now than what it used to be.

 

This is my observation as well. Make a pass and leave, 9/10 he will go down before making it home.

 

There is room for improvement though, yesterday it took three 109s to down a yak. The yak must of took 10 or more 20mm hits.

That yak was crazy tough, it was giving the Jug a run for it's money.

Edited by Legioneod

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17 hours ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

Hi all, 

 

after last updates (I guess where the correction was made about gun efficiency considering the angles of hits...) I noticed HUGE, but really HUGE degradation of efficiency of such guns like: vYa-23 in Lagg3 and BS12,7 for Mig-3.

 

Picking BS in my MiG-3 career (700 rounds) I regularly shoot 4 planes down. Regular Min is 2. Max was 6. Doesn't seem to be that poor for a pair of .50cals...

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Machine guns are the star of the show right now. Their performance is nearly spot on and seem reliable enough. Even the smaller caliber stuff can do what you expect them to do, cause leaks and such. The cannons on the other hand are iffy, especially 30mm and up. 20mm is passable but feels underwhelming at times. 

 

I know that lots of planes were mentioned to have been too buffed with the DM update by the Devs and they said they are working on it. Those fixes are likely going into the upcoming update.

Edited by Field-Ops

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I’ve been using this DM for a while now and prefer it. It definitely seems more realistic that after hitting an ac that it flies on and gradually deteriorates. Smoke from the engine becoming thicker until the pilot bales etc. I find this very immersive. 

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I tend to fly attackers so my air-air gunnery isn’t brilliant, but I’ve increasingly had times where shooting up an aircraft doesn’t cause it to go down instantly, but it will crash a short while after and I’ll be notified of the kill. 

 

Cannons maybe still need some tweaking, but a change I would really like to see is to remove the instant, gamey notification of a kill that pops up on screen.

 

It gifts you bonus situational awareness as you know an aircraft is out of the fight even if you can’t see it, so you know it’s no longer a threat. And it can give away relative dispositions of each side over a target. 

 

Also the instant gratification of the notification (which everyone else can also see in MP) is probably a big factor in people chasing a crippled opponent trying to get the kill, or having people go for one-way kamikaze runs deep into enemy territory.

If the instant notification was removed and kills were credited at the end of a softie there would be less incentive to fly for points like that and it would go well with this current DM where kills don’t always happen in the first pass. 

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Just now, Royal_Flight said:

Also the instant gratification of the notification (which everyone else can also see in MP) is probably a big factor in people chasing a crippled opponent trying to get the kill, or having people go for one-way kamikaze runs deep into enemy territory.

If the instant notification was removed and kills were credited at the end of a softie there would be less incentive to fly for points like that and it would go well with this current DM where kills don’t always happen in the first pass. 

 

I'd prefer something different like scoring based on the damage inflicted. Hits, any hits should be rewarded - if you landed  a burst you should get something like 0.3 of "a full kill". It wouldn't be precise but so what? Neither were historic claims. However, it would help to facilitate teamwork and would reduce perceived KS by great amount.

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23 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

I'd prefer something different like scoring based on the damage inflicted. Hits, any hits should be rewarded - if you landed  a burst you should get something like 0.3 of "a full kill". It wouldn't be precise but so what? Neither were historic claims. However, it would help to facilitate teamwork and would reduce perceived KS by great amount.

Historically, if you'd been in the USAAF at least, unless the plane was seen to crash or be uncontrollable without hope of recovery the best you could hope for would be a damage claim or probable. Just getting hits on the target wouldn't garner a confirmed kill generally.

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11 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Historically, if you'd been in the USAAF at least, unless the plane was seen to crash or be uncontrollable without hope of recovery the best you could hope for would be a damage claim or probable. Just getting hits on the target wouldn't garner a confirmed kill generally.

 

Exactly - we lack damage claims and probables. They could be counted as distinct variables, too.

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11 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Historically, if you'd been in the USAAF at least, unless the plane was seen to crash or be uncontrollable without hope of recovery the best you could hope for would be a damage claim or probable. Just getting hits on the target wouldn't garner a confirmed kill generally.

 

Understood; but this is a video game. It would be easy to implement - all you’re doing is deferring the kill notification until after each payer hits the ‘end flight’ button on the menu. 

 

Personally, I would prefer a system where kills are awarded after landing at a friendly airfield and no landing = no credit, but I can imagine that being divisive so I wouldn’t advocate for it. 

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1 hour ago, Royal_Flight said:

I tend to fly attackers so my air-air gunnery isn’t brilliant, but I’ve increasingly had times where shooting up an aircraft doesn’t cause it to go down instantly, but it will crash a short while after and I’ll be notified of the kill. 

 

Cannons maybe still need some tweaking, but a change I would really like to see is to remove the instant, gamey notification of a kill that pops up on screen.

 

It gifts you bonus situational awareness as you know an aircraft is out of the fight even if you can’t see it, so you know it’s no longer a threat. And it can give away relative dispositions of each side over a target. 

 

Also the instant gratification of the notification (which everyone else can also see in MP) is probably a big factor in people chasing a crippled opponent trying to get the kill, or having people go for one-way kamikaze runs deep into enemy territory.

If the instant notification was removed and kills were credited at the end of a softie there would be less incentive to fly for points like that and it would go well with this current DM where kills don’t always happen in the first pass. 

 

This. You should only get credit for the kill if you make it back to your airfield or friendly territory and survive. Dead pilots can't claim kills irl, they shouldn't be able to do it in-game.

 

This would promote more realistic flying and fighting and would limit the suicide players who stick with a target even when being shot from behind.

 

If the Devs would implement this or make it an option for server owners it would be a great improvement to gameplay.

Edited by Legioneod
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15 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

This. You should only get credit for the kill if you make it back to your airfield or friendly territory and survive. Dead pilots can't claim kills irl, they shouldn't be able to do it in-game.

 

This would promote more realistic flying and fighting and would limit the suicide players who stick with a target even when being shot from behind.

 

If the Devs would implement this or make it an option for server owners it would be a great improvement to gameplay.

In TAW any kills that one gets before getting killed during a sortie are not added to your overall statistics.

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1 hour ago, =AVG77=Garven said:

In TAW any kills that one gets before getting killed during a sortie are not added to your overall statistics.

I'd rather it be a forced thing server wide or something. I like TAW but I don't really feel like registering on an external site just so I can fly.

I'd rather it just be forced that way I can hop on any server to get it.

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15 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I'd rather it be a forced thing server wide or something. I like TAW but I don't really feel like registering on an external site just so I can fly.

I'd rather it just be forced that way I can hop on any server to get it.

That would be bad for MP part of game, servers need to be able to decide if they will have it like that or not and thats how its now.

I play on server like WoL, fast food not serious server where nothing you do mather to anyone, and i play to get kill if posible and also stay alive if posible, but forcing it by game on all servers that if you get killed you dont get kills, would be death to MP realy fast, there is many ways ppl like to play in MP and all are ok ( aslong its in server rules ) and not all wont to be bathered with staying alive or planing flight or so they wont to fined fast fight get 5-6 kills fast and go on, ppl who need more play on servers that offer that.

 

Also I dont understand how spending 2-5min to register on TAW (server that is for something more then just fast food) once in a half of year is so big problem. But forcing all 30000ppl that played MP to play the same way TAW is played is good solution even though only ~10-15% of them wont to play like that if you look at numbers of ppl that participate in TAW campaigns.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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1 minute ago, 77.CountZero said:

That would be bad for MP part of game, servers need to be able to decide if they will have it like that or not and thats how its now.

I play on server like WoL, fast food not serious server where nothing you do mather to anyone, and i play to get kill if posible and also stay alive if posible, but forcing it by game on all servers that if you get killed you dont get kills, would be death to MP realy fast, there is many ways ppl like to play and not all wont to be bathered with staying alive or planing flight or so they wont to fined fast fight get 5-6 kills fast and go on, ppl who need more play on servers that offer that.

 

Also I dont understand how spening 2-5min to register on TAW (server that is for something more then just fast food) once in a half of year is so big problem. But forcing all 30000ppl that played MP to play the same way TAW is layed is good solution.

The new kill mechanic system is forced server wide. This should be no different and it would greatly improve multiplayer. You can still get it kill it just wont give you credit unless you land or make it to friendly territory alive.

Only reason people want instant kills and kill scoring is so they can boast and pretend that they are really good. It causes them to be suicidal and stick with a target no matter what.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind removing stats altogether, stats only promote bad flying and ego boosting.

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The problem that I have is that 1CG's own testing showed you get some kind of fragmentation effect from large caliber cannons, similar to what you'd probably have with late war USN antiaircraft shells. However, the actual effect of a Mk108 on a plane is known because it was recorded in testing, and what we have doesn't look like that:

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

The new kill mechanic system is forced server wide. This should be no different and it would greatly improve multiplayer. You can still get it kill it just wont give you credit unless you land or make it to friendly territory alive.

Only reason people want instant kills and kill scoring is so they can boast and pretend that they are really good. It causes them to be suicidal and stick with a target no matter what.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind removing stats altogether, stats only promote bad flying and ego boosting.

 

 

and this system we have now alows all kineds of ppl who wont differant stuff to pretend that they are good players in diff things, one can do it by chasing most kills in month no mather how many time they get killed, other can go for most kills in one flight, some can go for most kills in hours, kills per deths, most wins of maps most ground targets destroyed per life and so on... and no one has to play same way, on servers that are for fun only. For campaigns ppl play more serious, leve rest to be relaxed as same ppl who play campaigns play also on not so serious servers and chase diff things there. It would be boring MP enviroment if all is same.

 

also stats in MP are important as it brings ppl to play day after day, have for test all MP servers without stats and youll not have any number of players playing for long, even SP campaigns ppl play because of their stats, remove stats and logs and its just quick or single missions and ppl would not be playing as long as they can when they chase that carrot of geting 25-50 or what not number of kills or ground kills. 

 

Edit:

just check and you have TAW df server now (betwen TAW campaign) and no ppl no stats no point as there is no win to chase so server is not full like it is when there is war and stats and goal to chase.

 

 

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Only reason I don't play TAW is even when I register the server fails to load for me. So I just WoL. If the kill mechanics were not dependent on an external site I think they would be better off.

 

Also +1 for option of removing kill messages all together. 

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