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Badger343rd

Tank controls are ridiculous

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who ever came up with this control scheme for tanks need to give his head a shake. You need to add joystick turret control and not have the gun auto return to hull when pressing T. T press should stay at point you are looking until pressed  again  and then realign to the point you are looking at upon second press. A gunner slew to target command if you will. How about some dev feedback on these controls since there has been many posts about it.

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folks are using a joystick for tank crew? i find the keyboard and mouse works best.

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well we are trying to but its soooo bad its almost not worth it. a lack of common sense in its design makes it almost impossible. There is no reason that we shouldn't be able to set our HOTAS controls the way we want them to work.

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It’s even worse in VR.  I continue to submit that the use of a PC Xbox controller would be best.  That way someone in VR could sit in a chair and operate the tank fairly fluidly.  The keyboard is simply impossible and a joystick isn’t very realistic for most tank controls.

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If you use joytoKey it works intuitively on a hotas...in fact I got it working just like a real tank simulator(steelbeasts).The thing is I had to go find software...learn how to use it and reconfigure my controls. I should NOT of had to do that. The default set up is just plain stupid. (And broken IMO)

Edited by Badger343rd
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I  use one of these (purchased relatively cheaply off a well known auction channel), solely for TC, works great.  Particularly using the joystick (X,Y & Z axis when using JoytoKey) for steering. It can also supplement other switch panels when used with BoX. I use it in VR, and whilst the switches are not the most robust or  tactile they are easy to find and use.

 

https://www.logitechg.com/en-roeu/products/farm/farm-simulator-side-panel.html

Edited by Pajeka
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17 hours ago, Badger343rd said:

T press should stay at point you are looking until pressed  again  and then realign to the point you are looking at upon second press. A gunner slew to target command if you will.

 

Badger, I've been using JoytoKey with success except in solving the automatic slew to Target problem you mention above, in the Tiger....it's always worked somehow with the T34 since I first started using joytokey.   But not for the Tiger.   Hoping you or anyone else who has solved this issue can share the solution here.   Thad?

Edited by J5_Baeumer

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I haven't bothered with tanks yet because of the control mapping setup, but I'm looking forward to have the controls available to set up in the control setup options.  Thanks for the joy to key suggestion though.

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I have never had a issue with the controls, I have gas forward and reverse and steering the tank on my Hotas throttle gages. Moving the turret, fire and reload on the mouse and head movement on a hat switch on the joke... 

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4 hours ago, NETSCAPE said:

kb and mouse...this isn't a flight sim bois...

 

I know right? ...World of Tanks has been around for years with KB & mouse ....is there a reason this wouldn't be best? Thinking about giving it a whirl soon ...just waiting to see what the future holds for tanks in this sim...

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:59 AM, J5_Baeumer said:

 

Badger, I've been using JoytoKey with success except in solving the automatic slew to Target problem you mention above, in the Tiger....it's always worked somehow with the T34 since I first started using joytokey.   But not for the Tiger.   Hoping you or anyone else who has solved this issue can share the solution here.   Thad?

 

Sorry, GPU has crapped out on me. I haven't been able to do much of anything recently. 🙁

 

Just installed my new GTX 1070 8GB today. Getting back into the swing of things. :yahoo:

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14 hours ago, NETSCAPE said:

kb and mouse...this isn't a flight sim bois...

 

10 hours ago, HellCat_ said:

 

I know right? ...World of Tanks has been around for years with KB & mouse ....is there a reason this wouldn't be best? Thinking about giving it a whirl soon ...just waiting to see what the future holds for tanks in this sim...

 

Well now Gentlemen ... let's not go harsh'n on peoples desire to enjoy this "tank sim" reasonably in their own abodes ... there was no kb and mouse in the real German and Russian Tanks being modeled either ... so it's not unreasonable for users to provide feedback on the types of mappable commands that would be useful beyond the basic ability that exists to map controls natively in the sim for input devices without 3rd party kb mapping support (or needing to use J2K ... which is a good option...)  when they want to use modern day input devices they already own (besides a kb and mouse) to operate the various wheels, levers and switches that were in the tanks.

 

This would apply as much if a person were to say .. go wild... use a Bodnar Board or similar device .. build those wheels, levers, pedals, and switches and have a good old Tank'n time ! (Nope.. haven't done that.... yet … )

 

Another option to set controls could be to use Voice Attack or similar voice control software to manipulate controls ... which of course is helpful to VR users who can't see the kb easily.  In some ways that may be even more realistic feeling to some than working a keyboard key and mouse combo.

 

I'm happy you're both happy to use the kb and mouse.. enjoy !

 

The more people who can enjoy the sim.. the more you will have to hunt with or hunt for ...

 

You flush'em I'll crush'em.

Edited by AldoUSMC
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1 hour ago, AldoUSMC said:

Another option to set controls could be to use Voice Attack or similar voice control software to manipulate controls ... which of course is helpful to VR users who can't see the kb easily.  In some ways that may be even more realistic feeling to some than working a keyboard key and mouse combo.

 

Already did it and made a thread with a file for people to use... it "felt" more immersive and cool, but in reality would probably be a competitive disadvantage in multiplayer. I don't have VR and won't get one due to health issues. But your concern for voice commands is pretty valid there. An even easier alternative would be simple controller support, everyone uses xbox controller so that's that. 

 

EDIT: here https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/39261-tank-crew-voice-command/

 

 

1 hour ago, AldoUSMC said:

there was no kb and mouse in the real German and Russian Tanks being modeled either

 

Yeah sure but kb and mouse is standardized controls for first person shooters, tank games, basically aiming in general. WASD layout ect...everyone knows this. So if you're concerned about getting more people to play don't be, the vast majority of PC gamers all know these standardized KB mouse layouts. However, they do not know joystick stuff. 

 

And as for mapping other devices... I spent a fair amount of time researching tank controls and thought how to replicate them, reasonably, for a universal tank sim "controller". It could be done quite easily with a 3d printer. Mainly the focus is one traverse and elevation and trigger, so gunner. I think precise analog gunner control input combined with voice commands for driving would be awesome. But if you wanted a nice metal feel to the controls you would have to pay up and buy generic hardware. Initially I researched this stuff and came up with a budget to see if it would be possible to make and sell them. But it's not really viable as a business model I'm afraid. For a personal project, sure! 

Edited by NETSCAPE

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16 hours ago, HellCat_ said:

 

I know right? ...World of Tanks has been around for years with KB & mouse ....is there a reason this wouldn't be best? Thinking about giving it a whirl soon ...just waiting to see what the future holds for tanks in this sim...

 

It would work as it does in WoT and WT. Though those aren't exactly the same kind of game as IL-2.

Even in WT community some people suggested the mouse control of the turret became a mousejoystick (direction of cursor from the centre determine movement direction, distance from the center it's speed) or even keys to traverse. The later is what Hell let loose decided for.

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17 hours ago, HellCat_ said:

 

I know right? ...World of Tanks has been around for years with KB & mouse ....is there a reason this wouldn't be best? Thinking about giving it a whirl soon ...just waiting to see what the future holds for tanks in this sim...

 

Well.. ahem.. WoT (and WT) are round-based Arcade Arena Shooter Games with their own dynamic and ever shifting rules, metas, pacing, .. and while one of them may "look" like a tank game (the other one barely pretends), none of them even remotely have anything to do with "Tank Sim" or Tank gameplay at all... (and one of them even replaces the players very own mk1 eyeball by purchase based mechanics).
They are also barebones Arena Multiplayer-only games - and for IL2 the multiplayer population is a miniscule segment of their purchase-base (thankfully.. they could not exist off the comparably few of us), so the product has to cater pure PvE AND PvA in many loop designs.

The desire to use Stick Controls for IL2:TC (in my case, dualsticks... or HOTSAS to be precise) is just another element of immersion.. and to enhance the "sim" aspect - the unwieldiness of trying to aim and range a WW2 tank gun (also: drive, manage, multicrew) - again for a wide range of loop designs.

Moreso since we already have "that stuff" (sticks, headtracking, kb, gaming mouse.. and non VR players will still use MKB for many things within the loop)

If those mechanics (and the overall pacing) are done right.. there should be no advantage or disadvantage in using either - the "shooter" element of pixelprecise aim should be negated by how the asset behaves.

 

Unfortunately there already has been a little setback... in the old demos you used to move the gun.. and not an aimpoint.. so you actually aimed the gun.
In TC you now move an aimpoint.. aka your mouse aim defines a coordinate endset and the turret/gun - the sight -  moves to that pixel... albeit thankfully still and a second (maybe third) order motion (but so it does in WoT too... in theory).

Apart from finally separating turret controls from the pilot headcam and make them axis assignable - we should also hope that TC goes back to a turret aim translation - aka you can either use a first or second order INPUT peripheral.. but the asset mechanics and behavior result in the same third order loop experience with the asset (with the added trap of universal peripherals control access [good] versus unified controls [bad, very bad]).

 

If 1C has the ressources... and the self and product conscious stamina to pull this off - or "stay on pitch" - with the ressources available to them.. we will see (and can only hope) .

PS: WoT.. o.m.g...really?

Edited by RogoRogo
the typos.. almost as much my most intimate friends as are 72K AA guns...

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2 hours ago, RogoRogo said:

 

Well.. ahem.. WoT (and WT) are round-based Arcade Arena Shooter Games with their own dynamic and ever shifting rules, metas, pacing, .. and while one of them may "look" like a tank game (the other one barely pretends), none of them even remotely have anything to do with "Tank Sim" or Tank gameplay at all... .

PS: WoT.. o.m.g...really?

 

O.M.G really....I'm a gamer as well as a simmer........My point wasn't to debate the validity of WOT to be a tank sim ....I've been gaming for 28 year's I know the difference but thanks for the lesson  ......I was merely referring to the KB and mouse mechanic to move a vehicle on the ground .....

 

That being said after driving around last night I can see why people want the duel sticks for "immersion"  I was blown away once again in VR although I use my rudder pedals to turn the tank same way I moved Dozers and loaders back in the day .....

 

 

4 hours ago, Fliegel said:

 

It would work as it does in WoT and WT. Though those aren't exactly the same kind of game as IL-2.

Even in WT community some people suggested the mouse control of the turret became a mousejoystick (direction of cursor from the centre determine movement direction, distance from the center it's speed) or even keys to traverse. The later is what Hell let loose decided for.

 

Looking forward to Hell let loose !

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You don't control tank turrets by pointing with the Mouse and the "turret AI" automatically pointing to where you want like in arcade games.

You should have to give actual inputs. Best way to represent this is mouse joy like in steel beasts, where the center of the screen is a deadzone and, for example, you move the mouse to the left, the turret will continue rotating left until you move it back to the center
 

 

 

And add inputs that dont conflict with aircraft of course

Edited by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal
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Using a Logitech G13 (keybinded) and mouse.  Which is what I use for Steel Beast too.

 

But I agree that the default key combos are way to much if you plan on playing with a keyboard.

 

Don´t even know which key combo is used to get to the gunner position!  I have to cycle views via the LCtl+C which isn´t too practical.

 

Red

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On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:23 PM, ZeBest-GunnyHighway said:

Where can I find the Keyboard Tank command?...thanks guys

Salutations,

 

May be a bit dated but look below.

 

TankDefault.PNG

Edited by Thad

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3 hours ago, ZeBest-GunnyHighway said:

Where can I find the Keyboard Tank command?...thanks guys

 

There's a tab right inside the game with all of them.

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17 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There's a tab right inside the game with all of them.

Thanks, Luke and Thad. 
My 10 cents is that those commands somewhat unusual and classical are good. It is a matter of adaptation. I played Red Orchestra, Operation Flashpoint,  Steel armor, Panzer elite, steel fury, Panzer commander, SBProPE, Tiger vs. T34, etc...
They all have their differences yet their advantages. In the end, it is a matter of how much one is motivated to adapt to the new commands.
 

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Important note for this latest update: there are a couple of new commands which allow the Sherman commander to rotate his periscope. 

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new patch.. and STILL no separated turret controls...

This is very very disappointing.. since even a completely unsound product (codewise) like "Post Scriptum" (which is a FPS shooter fore and foremost.. and where you cannot even range the gunsight.. and the tanks "soapglide" in a wheeled vehicle drivemodel) manages to adress tank/turret gameplay by actually aiming the gun.. and not moving the zero-order aimpoint to a pixelprecise destination.

Edited by =RFBS=RogoRogo
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45 minutes ago, =RFBS=RogoRogo said:

new patch.. and STILL no separated turret controls...

This is very very disappointing.. since even a completely unsound product (codewise) like "Post Scriptum" (which is a FPS shooter fore and foremost.. and where you cannot even range the gunsight.. and the tanks "soapglide" in a wheeled vehicle drivemodel) manages to adress tank/turret gameplay by actually aiming the gun.. and not moving the zero-order aimpoint to a pixelprecise destination.

 

C'mon, mate, give us a brake, will you? It is still Early Access - so there is room for improvement, yes. But, it's not bad at all for a start. And most important to me,

with this dev team we are pretty sure to get a finished product at the end - remember "Tiger vs. T34"? Now, that was a disappointment in a whole.

 

And btw. the gunsight range can be adjusted for sure! Check your key mapping, mate.

 

Servus

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15 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

C'mon, mate, give us a brake, will you? It is still Early Access - so there is room for improvement, yes. But, it's not bad at all for a start. And most important to me,

with this dev team we are pretty sure to get a finished product at the end - remember "Tiger vs. T34"? Now, that was a disappointment in a whole.

 

And btw. the gunsight range can be adjusted for sure! Check your key mapping, mate.

 

Servus

 

woha... do not put me in a wrong light here.. I did not mean to "diss" IL2 or 1C.. it is pretty much the only "sim" product for "our preferred" scenario out there (unless DCS suddenly decides to clean up its "all over the place".. but then DCS is planes only.. the armored module is not really worth mentioning)...

The remark with the gunsight was for "Post Scriptum" (where it cannot be ranged, but the gun is aimed instead of an aimpoint) - not for IL2 (where it can be ranged.. and the ranging is bound the right joystick I cannot natively use for turret controls.. but we do not aim a gun but a zero-order aimpoint).

Ofc it is early access.. but certain things when going forward with a product have to be adressed early... by intent for the design and planning phase.. and by early codestate if you want to have sound foundational mechanics - unless you want to end up in an endless "rapid prototyping" stage.

Thus unbinding the tank-turret controls from the "pilot headcam's mouse controls" (trackIR or opentrack protocols use a different set of codelines)... is something that should not be considered "out of place" or "too much" to ask for... now.. as damage models, mechanics and controls are expanded and become more layered, as the map is published, as assets are coming off the pipeline.

 

Moreso.. as only native controls (and possible server admin settings) drag a tail of follow-up scenarios - especially for multiplayer - with them.

Grüezi (and is the "zum Gupf" at the Bodensee still as exceptional as I remember it?)

Edited by =RFBS=RogoRogo
yes, "Tiger vs T-34" --- ouch
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2 hours ago, =RFBS=RogoRogo said:

Grüezi (and is the "zum Gupf" at the Bodensee still as exceptional as I remember it?)

 

Sorry, never heard of this restaurant - but there are plenty of other great restaurants here in CH, but as in A too.

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21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Important note for this latest update: there are a couple of new commands which allow the Sherman commander to rotate his periscope. 

How does this work eactly? These the ones labeled "Visor horizontal adjustment" or some such? They didn't seem to do anything for me yesterday, do I need to select the pariscope somehow? Also, can the driver adjust his? 

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I really hope they figure out a way to make the gunner and commander views in VR hooked to the turret turning.  Right now it is absolutely jarring.

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1 hour ago, thenorm said:

How does this work eactly? These the ones labeled "Visor horizontal adjustment" or some such? They didn't seem to do anything for me yesterday, do I need to select the pariscope somehow? Also, can the driver adjust his? 

 

As I wrote in my post, it's for the commander - no one else. 

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But those are the correct key commands to be trying, and doesn't require some way to select the periscope for control?

 

Checked again, turns out I was just being dumb and hitting Ralt rather than Rshift, and I have to correct you there luke, those key commands do apply to the driver and assistant driver's hatch mounted pariscopes. If you swap to the secondary/backup pariscopes mounted in the hull (with Lwindows C) then you cannot traverse/elevate the pariscope as it is a solid mount. 

Edited by thenorm
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On 3/18/2019 at 6:23 PM, LukeFF said:

Important note for this latest update: there are a couple of new commands which allow the Sherman commander to rotate his periscope. 

 

not only for the commander ;) all crew position have adjustable periscopes except the gunner in the Sherman...Good visibility in this tank...:good:

Edited by Swing

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On 2/1/2019 at 10:55 AM, JG51_Beazil said:

I haven't bothered with tanks yet because of the control mapping setup, but I'm looking forward to have the controls available to set up in the control setup options.  Thanks for the joy to key suggestion though.

 

It's the same for me.  Loving the aircraft and fly the hell out of this sim but the inability to use my joystick for turret control is a no go for me on the tank DLC.

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On 3/19/2019 at 5:25 PM, LukeFF said:

As I wrote in my post, it's for the commander - no one else. 

In the Sherman the 1st visor for the driver and mg gunner can be turned and tilted and also you can remove the visor and use the fixad 2nd visor. The commander's visor can only turn by the same controls.

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On 3/27/2019 at 9:37 AM, KARAYA1 said:

In the Sherman the 1st visor for the driver and mg gunner can be turned and tilted and also you can remove the visor and use the fixad 2nd visor. The commander's visor can only turn by the same controls.

How do you change the visor for the driver/mg gunner?

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Since we're here... how do I get to the .50 on top of the Sherman? Please.

 

Thanks.

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