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Is TrackIR best choice?

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

^ NaturalPoint defending their intellectual property as they’re entitled to do. This is the only course they can take because I’m sure it’s unprofitable to take legal action against people with no money. That’s why this imitation software is free. If it made money then it would open them to being sued. 

The screenshot I provided showed Eagle Dynamics cancelling their interface at the request of NaturalPoint. Do you think they have no money? 

 

Companies can't take legal action just because they feel like shutting down a competitor and expect to win. They have to have some sort of grounds for it, which you seem unable to show. Again, where are these patents and copyright infringements? That said, free software is often very vulnerable as even the threat of legal action is enough to shut down or drive underground an entity that lacks sufficient money for lawyers.

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If the free products are legit why does NP ask ED to block them? That’s because this is the only course NP can take against unlawful competitors. There’s no profit is suing people who have no money.

Companies can ask anything, even if it has no legal value whatsoever. Unfortunately, de-facto monopolies often end up having great power as they can dictate draconian terms for using their products. This makes it very difficult for competitors to enter the market.

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If it was a free game “reverse engineered” from the Digital Nature engine?

Whatever you do for a living, hope someone else doesn’t just put it up free on the internet in order to cut into your business  

Distributing cracked copies or stealing the Digital Nature source code would be stealing someone's work. Making your own Second World War air combat game with similar features would be perfectly fine.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

The screenshot I provided showed Eagle Dynamics cancelling their interface at the request of NaturalPoint. 

 

Companies can't take legal action just because they feel like shutting down a competitor and expect to win. They have to have some sort of grounds for it, which you seem unable to show.

Well ED shut them down didn’t they? So there was probably grounds for it. You haven’t been able to show that this freeware is legit either. My assumption is that it’s not because it’s free and the example you just provided from ED above. 

12 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Unfortunately, de-facto monopolies often end up having great power as they can dictate draconian terms for using their products. This makes it very difficult for competitors to enter the market.

Actually if you wanted NaturalPoint to have competition, the thing that’s preventing other companies from getting into the head tracking market is probably the presence of all this freeware. 

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12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well ED shut them down didn’t they? So there was probably grounds for it.

Yes, possibly because the TrackIR SDK that ED used had a licence agreement that prohibited creating software with similar functionality. Or perhaps there was some other exclusive agreement. Had NaturalPoint not been a de-facto monopoly, nobody would have agreed to such terms.

It is irrelevant for developers that have no dealings or contracts with NaturalPoint.

 

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You haven’t been able to show that this freeware is legit either.

I don't have to show anything. The burden of proof is on you. You must produce the evidence that will prove your claims against Opentrack.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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Keep in mind when talking about Free Software: “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”. :friends:

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:48 AM, SharpeXB said:

If opentrack is legitimate why is it free?

Why would anyone make software and give it away free unless there were intellectual property or copywrite problems that prevent them from selling it commercially?

Overpriced compared to what? Free hackware? 

Many, many developers (myself included) release our code for free for multiple reasons:

  • Personal fulfillment - it is a great feeling to see a developer and user community organically evolve around something you created, and if you are lucky, you may get to see it evolve to something much, much greater than your initial expectations.  Just take the Linux kernel for example; originally it was just a personal hobby project - today it powers not only the majority of the Internet but also the majority of mobile devices.
  • We have been personally benefitted by using open-source code in our own projects and we are simply  "paying-back". Good karma indeed!
  • We might be using open-source code that explicitly requests in its licence  to release our source-code if we intend to exploit it commercialy.

Open source is here to stay. Big software houses like Microsoft initially loathed the idea of it, and now have gone full 180º and are fully embracing it, to the extent of opening big proprietary technologies (like .NET core) and recently opening its FULL patent portfolio. 

 

I don't know if Opentrack is infringing any patents or copyrights, what I do know is that giving it for free is NOT an indication that it does.

Cheers!

Edited by sgorozco37
spelling mistake
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3 minutes ago, sgorozco37 said:

Many, many developers (myself included) release our code for free for multiple reasons:

  • Personal fulfillment - it is a great feeling to see a developer and user community organically evolve around something you created, and if you are lucky, you may get to see it evolve to something much, much greater than your initial expectations.  Just take the Linux kernel for example; originally it was just a personal hobby project - today it powers not only the majority of the Internet but also the majority of mobile devices.
  • We have been personally benefitted by using open-source code in our own projects and we are simply  "paying-back". Good karma indeed!
  • We might be using open-source code that explicitly requests in its licence  to release our source-code if we intend to exploit it commercialy.

Open source is here to stay. Big software houses like Microsoft initially loathed the idea of it, and now have gone full 180º and are fully embracing it, to the extent of opening big proprietary technologies (like .NET core) and recently opening its FULL patent portfolio. 

 

I don't know if Opentrack is infringing any patents or copyrights, what I do know is that giving it for free is NOT an indication that it does.

Cheers!

Again though. If you wanted NatrualPoint to have a genuine competitor in the commercial market, the presence of freeware actually deters any other company from entering it. So freeware is actually accomplishing the opposite of what people might want it to. It also in effect drives up the price of the commercial product since their pricing has to make up for free competition. 

 

In in the final analysis, you generally get what you pay for. Commercial products perform better and are more supported and reliable than the free alternatives. 

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3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again though. If you wanted NatrualPoint to have a genuine competitor in the commercial market, the presence of freeware actually deters any other company from entering it. So freeware is actually accomplishing the opposite of what people might want it to. It also in effect drives up the price of the commercial product since their pricing has to make up for free competition. 

 

In in the final analysis, you generally get what you pay for. Commercial products perform better and are more supported and reliable than the free alternatives. 

Yes, I see your point and I do agree with your final analysis - the presence of a freeware competitor definitely is a dangerous commercial threat, especially in such a narrow market as these type of devices; and yes - I do agree that -at least in my experience-  a commercial product typically outperforms a freeware-one. 

 

I just didn't agree with the assertion that being freeware implied an existing patent or copyright violation.

 

Cheers!

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On 2/14/2019 at 5:48 AM, SharpeXB said:

If opentrack is legitimate why is it free?

Why would anyone make software and give it away free unless there were intellectual property or copywrite problems that prevent them from selling it commercially?

Overpriced compared to what? Free hackware? 

 

Are you ACTUALLY trolling?

 

There's this thing called "open source" where programmers fed up with corporate greed set out to make better versions of software. Most of the Internet runs on Linux, which is open-source.

 

More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software

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43 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

There's this thing called "open source" where programmers fed up with corporate greed set out to make better versions of software.

Corporate greed? 🙄 

Why would somebody work hard to create software like this and then forgo any income from it? This isn’t a simple app. 

I figure that makes them not very smart

either because they probably hacked it

Or not smart because they aren’t even aware if they violated any intellectual property or aren’t smart enough to figure that out or how to sell it. 

This software was described earlier as “reverse engineered” which sounds like it was probably hacked. 

 

And this freeware is accomplishing the opposite of whatever that anti corporate greed intent was. It discourages any other company from making this software and ends up eliminating competition for NaturalPoint. 

Edited by SharpeXB
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17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Corporate greed? 🙄 

Why would somebody work hard to create software like this and then forgo any income from it? This isn’t a simple app. 

I figure that makes them not very smart

either because they probably hacked it

Or not smart because they aren’t even aware if they violated any intellectual property or aren’t smart enough to figure that out or how to sell it. 

This software was described earlier as “reverse engineered” which sounds like it was probably hacked. 

 

And this freeware is accomplishing the opposite of whatever that anti corporate greed intent was. It discourages any other company from making this software and ends up eliminating competition for NaturalPoint. 

You are trolling us heavily. Sgorozco37 and alonzo already explained everything.

So basically you would say that OpenOffice is also a hackware. Amazing.

Im out of this discussion. This is sick.

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I just tuned in to this. Three pages of comments, wow.  I used the TrackIR 5.  Then the Delanclip with their modified PS3 camera and their GoPro headband (which works well) and OpenTrack.   I ended up finally with OpenTrack and the UTC II wireless tracker, which I have velcroed  to a Corsair wireless headset.

 

If price was a big consideration, I would have choose the Delanclip package (the wired version).  UTC is about the same price as Delanclip's new wireless clip but has been around a while longer.

 

I'm pretty happy with my setup now that I've created my own OpenTrack profile that works for me.  But I'm spoiled with wireless (no dragging the tracker off my head when the wires catch on the throttle or collective).

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7 hours ago, Alonzo said:

programmers fed up with corporate greed

 

With an axe to grind over a $149 headset... 🙄

Edited by SharpeXB

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I’m not sure this counts as an argument. A couple of us are stating facts and some nutjob is trolling. Either way I’m out of the thread.

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9 hours ago, czech693 said:

I just tuned in to this. Three pages of comments, wow.  I used the TrackIR 5.  Then the Delanclip with their modified PS3 camera and their GoPro headband (which works well) and OpenTrack.   I ended up finally with OpenTrack and the UTC II wireless tracker, which I have velcroed  to a Corsair wireless headset.

 

 

Thanks for adding some useful info to the debate. I had never heard of the UTC.  From the info I can find it is not clear whether this replaces TrackIr hardware & software completely or just replaces the hardware.   The info I found talks about using it with TrackIr but you are using it with Opentrack.  Why is that?  The TrackIr software is available for free.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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3 hours ago, sniperton said:

 

I watched the video as well and from what he says there this could even be worth an existing TrackIr user buying. He seems to think it is faster and almost impossible to lose tracking with even in a bright room. Add to that the wireless ability and very long battery life with short charging and I am very tempted.

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TBH I would buy the TiR 6 with new features and better peformance, right away. But Naturalpoint is very comfy.

Edited by blackram

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13 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

Thanks for adding some useful info to the debate. I had never heard of the UTC.  From the info I can find it is not clear whether this replaces TrackIr hardware & software completely or just replaces the hardware.   The info I found talks about using it with TrackIr but you are using it with Opentrack.  Why is that?  The TrackIr software is available for free.

 

UTC II is just the wireless 3-led head tracker, you have to provide a camera and tracking software.   I use the PS3 camera I got with the DelanClip and Opentrack.  Here's a thread on SimHQ with pictures and details:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4332181/all/utc-mk-ii-professional-wireless-trackclip-pro-alternative

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Ok... well i ordered a Delanclip in the end and going to modify ps3 camera today. All up cost me $115 AUD. Thanks for the help...

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I’ve been using the UTC II for the last month and am really impressed. Ordering was simple with Bartek (owner). He gave me lots of information on the product to help make an informed purchasing decision. He also was clear on shipping options. 

 

The small, sturdy package took 11 days from Poland to Connecticut US. It was  logically packed wasting no space or material. The actual product is very solid but light, nicely designed and has a simple matte black finish. Three “invisible” LED’s, on/off switch and charging port are in clear view. Attaching it to my headphones with supplied Velcro was a no-brainer. 

 

I had been using TrackIR5 with a hat clip. I was satisfied with the results...until I tried the UTC II. I noticed it was much smoother, offered me a wider field-of-view and seemed never to be out of camera range no matter how I twisted and bobbed my head. It was a definite improvement for me when using TrackIR camera and software. I imagine results may vary using different software and cameras but I am completely satisfied with my setup. 

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13 hours ago, DragonDaddy said:

 

 

I had been using TrackIR5 with a hat clip. I was satisfied with the results...until I tried the UTC II. I noticed it was much smoother, offered me a wider field-of-view and seemed never to be out of camera range no matter how I twisted and bobbed my head. It was a definite improvement for me when using TrackIR camera and software. I imagine results may vary using different software and cameras but I am completely satisfied with my setup. 

This is what Im talking about. TiR is fine but its not the best tracker and is by far the most expensive. I also had that issue with loosing tracking at extreme angles no matter how I tuned the tir units angle or settings and curves in software...Natural point is comfy, version 5 is like 10yrs old, they didnt make any improved versions and the market is still there because not everyone can use VR (or have money for it and the rig needed for it).

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I got my edtracker pro yesterday. I've been tinkering the curves and testing it. So far it has been quite good, but I'm not sure if I want to replace my Tir5 yet.

 

While the pseudo 6DOF works nicely there are still moments where you miss the real 6DOF. Like when you want move head forward without pitching to see past cockpit frame.

 

With Trackir I agree with Blackram. Trackir could need couple of new features, but there has been none for a long time. I really liked the neck displacement option in Opentrack. They should implement this to trackir too. Otherwise the Trackir is a solid performer.

 

I think both devices are good with their own pros and cons. 

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:05 PM, DragonDaddy said:

I’ve been using the UTC II for the last month and am really impressed. Ordering was simple with Bartek (owner). He gave me lots of information on the product to help make an informed purchasing decision. He also was clear on shipping options. 

 

The small, sturdy package took 11 days from Poland to Connecticut US. It was  logically packed wasting no space or material. The actual product is very solid but light, nicely designed and has a simple matte black finish. Three “invisible” LED’s, on/off switch and charging port are in clear view. Attaching it to my headphones with supplied Velcro was a no-brainer. 

 

I had been using TrackIR5 with a hat clip. I was satisfied with the results...until I tried the UTC II. I noticed it was much smoother, offered me a wider field-of-view and seemed never to be out of camera range no matter how I twisted and bobbed my head. It was a definite improvement for me when using TrackIR camera and software. I imagine results may vary using different software and cameras but I am completely satisfied with my setup. 

 

I also ordered UTC 2 and also had a great buying experience.

However, I sit close to the monitor and for me a basic TrackIR clip works better so now UTC 2 gathers dust. 

 

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18 hours ago, blackram said:

This is what Im talking about. TiR is fine but its not the best tracker and is by far the most expensive. I also had that issue with loosing tracking at extreme angles no matter how I tuned the tir units angle or settings and curves in software...Natural point is comfy, version 5 is like 10yrs old, they didnt make any improved versions and the market is still there because not everyone can use VR (or have money for it and the rig needed for it).

I’m not sure TrackIR could be improved from v5. What else would you want from it? I suppose the pro clip could be stronger. It does what it does well enough. That’s probably why it hasn’t needed a new version. 

If you’re losing tracking just change the sensitivity. You won’t lose tracking then unless you completely look away from the monitor. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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Although TrackIR 5 works well, it could be improved substantially. The ideal solution would allow the user to completely forget about camera FoV, line of sight to markers, etc.

 

Precision is sacrificed by increasing the gain to allow sufficient viewing arc without loss of tracking.

 

VR devices show that head tracking can be much better.

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TiR can be improved in many ways.

1) less distraction from light sources in the room

2) better tracking at extreme angles/more erratic movements

3) less impact on PC (Edtracker pro is much lighter in that regard also)

4) better solution (more quality) for tracking teh camera, more durable Trackclip pro....etc

5) more features in TiR software (to match those in Opentrack)....

6) PRICE REDUCE (its heavily overpriced, if we take in mind the technology which is based on). Do I need to say this again....for the price of the TiR5 you can buy Gladiator Mk2 and Edtracker Pro...

Edited by blackram
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