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jimmyjam

Is TrackIR best choice?

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3 hours ago, jimmyjam said:

Ok, so I haven't had time to buy it yet but I will be buying a ps3 camera for $4 at EB games and then am either going to decide between TrackHat Clip Plus or the Delanclip Fusion??? Has anyone seen both of them? Are they same quality? 

I had TrackHat Clip Plus couple of years ago. The charging port lasted about three months. It couldn't handle the daily plug in for charging the battery. I don't know how's the quality at the moment.

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Yes, TrackIR5 is the best choice out there. It is quite expensive but if you want to buy once and never worry about it again, then go TrackIR5.

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1 hour ago, ACG_Woop said:

Yes, TrackIR5 is the best choice out there. It is quite expensive but if you want to buy once and never worry about it again, then go TrackIR5.

you dont sound like you tried every other head tracking device on the market..

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24 minutes ago, blackram said:

you dont sound like you tried every other head tracking device on the market..

 

Everyone's a critic.

 

Always used joystick hat for simming. I then got more seriously involved in simming, playing online etc. so I needed a better way to look around. I tried OpenTrack eye tracking which was crap, and then started using a mouse in the left hand to look around. Also crap. Must've played like that for more than a year. Then tried making my own headtracking headphone clip thing, wires, LEDs, masking tape etc. combined with a modified PS3 EYE camera. This didn't work properly. Then ordered the Delan Clip, which also didn't work very well. My nerves being done in by this point, with OpenTrack crashing and not starting and ucking up settings etc. I purged the cancer that is OpenTrack from my PC. I decided to do my nerves a favour and stop being a cheap git and ordered TrackIR5 with the HatClip.

 

Since then it has worked flawlessly and I haven't thought about it since. Apart from the fact I have to wear a hat indoors at the computer, which my girlfriend has immense fun teasing me about. 🤣

 

I recommend OP does the same, if he doesn't want VR. I can't recommend ED Tracker as I haven't tried it. It works well for some people I know, but from my experience with OpenTrack I would steer clear.

Edited by ACG_Woop

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18 minutes ago, ACG_Woop said:

with OpenTrack crashing and not starting and ucking up settings etc.

 

Odd.  I have being using Opentrack for about 18 months and never seen these problems or any others.   It loses center far less often than TrackIr ever did (I used TrackIr for about 6 years before deciding to use EdTracker instead) and when it does lose center it is rarely more than about 5 degrees.   

As alluded to above, I used TrackIr for a long time and it still works but I don't use it any more because I find EdTracker more responsive and reliable. Trackir is wonderful with normal looking around and if all I was doing was flying bombers or cross countries I would still use it but I found it was capable of lagging or getting lost if I moved my head violently in intense combat, the worst time to glitch, while EdTracker never does.  That being said,  many people are very happy with TrackIr and it is probably still the most popular.  Perhaps in my case it was just that my PC does not quite have enough power to run IL2 on high settings and leave enough power for TrackIr to follow big violent moves smoothly while EdTracker uses less CPU and keeps up better.   EdTracker does glitch sometimes but then so did TrackIr and with both I find it necessary to have a reset view button somewhere easy to reach fast.    I would also say that TrackIr works better out of the box (unless I am just not remembering my first experience of TrackIr way back when)   With EdTracker I did have to play around for a few days before I had it how I wanted.  The support is very fast and helpful. None of these canned FAQs responses that I find so annoying because they seem to show the support team has not even read your message.

 

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Perhaps in my case it was just that my PC does not quite have enough power to run IL2 on high settings and leave enough power for TrackIr to follow big violent moves smoothly while EdTracker uses less CPU and keeps up better.   

TrackIR doesn’t use any significant CPU reselurces at all to run. It’s possible that these devices lose tracking when your game drops frames, maybe the difference I see between games is how well the games themselves run vs each other. 

 

A significant difference between between TrackIR and the DIY solutions is 6DOF. This is a big deal, beyond just allowing head turning it means you can lean and look around canopy frames etc. that’s as big an advantage as the free look function. I’m not sure if any of the DIY solutions do this. 

 

I depends on on your budget and tolerance for making things and dealing with setup and problems. TrackIR is the best performing and only commercial product and the easiest  to set up. The cost is relative because in the US at least it’s pretty cheap whereas in other countries it’s quite outrageously priced. 

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5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

TrackIR doesn’t use any significant CPU reselurces at all to run. It’s possible that these devices lose tracking when your game drops frames, maybe the difference I see between games is how well the games themselves run vs each other. 

 

A significant difference between between TrackIR and the DIY solutions is 6DOF. This is a big deal, beyond just allowing head turning it means you can lean and look around canopy frames etc. that’s as big an advantage as the free look function. I’m not sure if any of the DIY solutions do this. 

 

I depends on on your budget and tolerance for making things and dealing with setup and problems. TrackIR is the best performing and only commercial product and the easiest  to set up. The cost is relative because in the US at least it’s pretty cheap whereas in other countries it’s quite outrageously priced. 

Again somebody is talking without even knowing what DIY solutions can do. It was already explained that Edtracker Pro can do pseudo 6DOF which means when I roll my head I can lean over the nose or lean over my back to check 6. It is evene more natural (more to RL) than actualy rolling your head to see the whole screen rolling. I can even tune my 3DOF to duck if I lower my head, on example. Its a matter of fine tuning in Opentrack software.

The problem with TiR (I had TiR 3, TiR 4pro and TiR 5) I had is sometimes If I was in an intense dogfight and Im looking around in more dynamic way I sometimes lost my tracking no matter how the sensitivity was set or in which angle my camera was set on my monitor. Not to mention problems with backlight even when I used all the filters for that.

Edited by blackram
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1 minute ago, blackram said:

Again somebody is talking without even knowing what DIY solutions can do. It was already explained that Edtracker Pro can do pseudo 6DOF which means when I roll my head I can lean over the nose or lean over my back ot check 6. I can even tune my 3DOF to duck if I lowerr my view, one example.

The problem with TiR (I had TiR 3, TiR 4pro and TiR 5) I had is sometimes If I was in an intense dogfight and Im looking around in more dynamic way I sometimes lost my trcking no matter how the sensitivity was set or in which angle my camera was set on my monitor.

Well I did read up on ED tracker before posting that. I suppose anyone interested can do the same. Not sure how “pseudo 6DOF” compares to actual 6DOF. Hey if it works that’s great. What gets old is people bashing TrackIR as “expensive” because you can seemingly make your own. I don’t think the home brews work as well from what I’ve read. For the price you pay (in the US) TrackIR is certainly worth every penny. If you are losing tracking, check the setting and camera view to make sure that it always stays in range. There are several ways to set this. You should be able to set it so it never loses view of the reflectors. 

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6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well I did read up on ED tracker before posting that. I suppose anyone interested can do the same. Not sure how “pseudo 6DOF” compares to actual 6DOF. Hey if it works that’s great. What gets old is people bashing TrackIR as “expensive” because you can seemingly make your own. I don’t think the home brews work as well from what I’ve read. For the price you pay (in the US) TrackIR is certainly worth every penny. If you are losing tracking, check the setting and camera view to make sure that it always stays in range. There are several ways to set this. You should be able to set it so it never loses view of the reflectors. 

Well, I actually invested in THREE TiR units and now I have Edtracker Pro and if we talk pure tracking I find Edtracker more reliable. Native 6DOF si definitely a plus for TiR but for me the most important thing is the actual 3DOF which I use the most to funtion better than it used to with IR solution. But even if we take that aside the Edtracker Pro is way more best buy item. The problem is right now it isnt in the stock. And for a long time now.

Edited by blackram

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TrackIR 5 is the golden standard. DIY sollutions and clones work, too... usually, eventually,  in game like IL-2 where large part of playerbase uses them and devs bother to keep the game compatibile with all devices. But further you look to use it outside flight sims,  the bigger chance of needing the latest update to trackir 5 software that does not exist for your device. Lots of "TrackIR not working" threads out there where ansewr is "update the software to version that recognizes our game" and it turns out the not working TrackIR is older version 3 or a DIY.

 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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For Edtracker pro (gyro/magnetometer version) everything which supports TiR works with Edtracker Pro. No problems there. Fine tuning of curvs is possible with Opentrack software and that is an feature DIY solutions never had before (or didnt have properly). BTW, Edtracker is DiY and Edtracker Pro isnt. Well it is, kinda, but the guy sells them in the webstore and you have some warranty. There is also an Edtracker pro WiFi version so ppl who want wireless solutions have their choice.

 

Edited by blackram

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21 minutes ago, blackram said:

Again somebody is talking without even knowing what DIY solutions can do.

 

DIY solutions can do a lot. They can be a lifesaver for people on a low budget or other issues that TrackIR brings, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

 

But DIY solutions can also be a huge pain in the arse.

https://aircombatgroup.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10497

 

 

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Since when does opentrack not do 6dof? Lot of misinformation going around in this thread, but sure shell out 150 bucks for something that can be had for 40. Delan clip, open track and the ps3 eyecam work just as well if not better than trackir. FULL 6dof too, I know shocking. Opentrack software has never caused any issues ever and is super easy to use. Unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket than just get that setup. Flight sim community is so weird with stuff, grandpas stuck in their old ways never to change and come to the forums to preach and spread misinfo. Kind of why I just barely post here anymore. Everyone knows everything and that's that. Never change flight sim community never change.

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On 2/13/2019 at 9:11 AM, ACG_Woop said:

But DIY solutions can also be a huge pain in the arse.

This

 

I’m not knocking the DIY concept. Again it just depends on your budget vs tolerance for pages of instructions and troubleshooting. 

For a mere $150 (in the US that’s really cheap compared to all our other hardware) the ability to plug play and game on has its value. There’s nothing wrong with DIY just don’t make it sound like TrackIR has no value. It’s a very good product. I can’t imagine a device like it selling for much less. 

And realize TrackIR is a commercial software product. Opentrack is IMO probably hacked. Keep that in mind comparing prices. 

If I recall correctly there is always a question for TIR officially supported games to block the pirated imitators. The only reason it didn’t happen here was the sheer popularity of freeware and the effect of that on sales. But it was a factor at one point early on when BoS was launched

Edited by SharpeXB

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4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Opentrack afaik is basically pirated.

 

No, it's a very different software with its own code.

 

There is a significant difference between piracy and reverse engineering for interoperability.

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On 2/13/2019 at 6:36 PM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

No, it's a very different software with its own code.

 

There is a significant difference between piracy and reverse engineering for interoperability.

Ok “reverse engineered” whatever. It’s not a commercial product. It’s probably hackware. That’s why it’s free. 

So don’t say TrackIR is overpriced when you’re comparing it to likely “reverse engineered hacked” software. It’s not the hat clip you’re buying. It’s the legitimate company and software. And NaturalPoint is playing nice. If they wanted to, in exchange for official support they could ask the game to block these freeware imitators. It almost happened to IL-2 BoS when official TrackIR support was added. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Ok “reverse engineered” whatever. It’s not a commercial product. It’s basically hackware. That’s why it’s free. 

 

Opentrack is a fully-featured piece of software with very wide compatibility. It's maintained quite well. In fact, it has many features that TrackIR lacks. 

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So don’t say TrackIR is overpriced when you’re comparing it to “reverse engineered hacked” software.

 

Never said that.

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s the legitimate company and software.

 

So free software is illegitimate?

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And NaturalPoint is playing nice. If they wanted to, in exchange for official support they could ask the game to block these freeware imitators. It almost happened to IL-2 BoS when official TrackIR support was added. 

 

Are you aware of the allegations of anticompetitive practices made against NaturalPoint involving various attempts to shut down alternative head tracking solutions starting over a decade ago?

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
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Now Im starting to believe somebody from this topic is Naturalpoint´s employee. Here is my message to you. I invested in 3 of your overpriced units. Never again.

You wanted  to be the only one one the market. For how long your having version 5 on the market without improving anything further?

Bye.

Edited by blackram
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I would never say TrackIr is a bad choice. What I would say is that some people have found that systems relying on cameras *can* have issues during intense combat and this is why many people who have used TrackIr for years and were happy to pay the cost have moved to EdTracker.   

 

As for "Not sure how “pseudo 6DOF” compares to actual 6DOF.",   take a look at this 60 second video of how my own EdTracker & Opentrack setup does it.  


EdTracker & OpenTRack 6DoF demo

 

The movements shown are quite big but obviously in the air the game itself won't let you lean out or raise up so far.   You can also fine tune all those movements to amounts you feel comfortable with as you do with TrackIr.   One advantage over TrackIr though is that you can combine movements eg in something like the I16 the top part of the instrument panel is hidden and you need to duck down to look at it which even with 6DoF is not easy to achieve.    Opentrack allows you to say "When I look down,  lower my head position as well" or even "...lower my head position and move it forward a few inches to see the instruments better."

 

I would hesitate to tell every TrackIr user to change to EdTracker because it can be tricky to get set up exactly how you want the first time but on the other hand I also see posts from TrackIr users who are struggling to set it up properly.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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Anecdote, as always.

Out of our group of regular fliers, the only players who have never had an issue with head-tracking are those using TrackIR. The other guys have all tried various homebrew methods and cheaper set-ups, they have all periodically vented frustration at the equipment failing at some point during flight-time. This isn't to say that TrackIR is clearly the best, I think the hardware is pretty shite for what you pay (plastic headclips, etc etc) but it works.

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I've had TIR for a year, and once I'd figured out that there was a metal stud on my hat causing interference, it's worked like a complete dream. Not felt the need for the proclip or anything like that either. An absolute game changer - if you'll pardon the expression - and a godsend for immersion. A superior option for those of us who wear glasses also over VR.

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1 minute ago, Diggun said:

I've had TIR for a year, and once I'd figured out that there was a metal stud on my hat causing interference, it's worked like a complete dream. Not felt the need for the proclip or anything like that either. An absolute game changer - if you'll pardon the expression - and a godsend for immersion. A superior option for those of us who wear glasses also over VR.

I had to buy the pro clip, because hat clip reacted to reflections from my glasses.
Found out when I switched to camera view...
Pro clip - no prob.

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Personal feedback : I have a TrackIR 3 bought in 2004, regularly used and I never had any problem with it. There are some basic precautions with it (no sunlight reflections behind the player, IR reflectors always visible for the TIR...) but nothing impossible.

I am not a Natural Point employee or whatever you think... Just pointing out that I am well satisfied of those 120€ spent 15 years ago. My brother is in the same situation with a TIR4 bought in the early 2010's.

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On 2/13/2019 at 9:47 PM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

So free software is illegitimate?

If opentrack is legitimate why is it free?

Why would anyone make software and give it away free? I am assuming there were intellectual property or copywrite problems that prevent them from selling it commercially. 

On 2/14/2019 at 1:51 AM, blackram said:

Here is my message to you. I invested in 3 of your overpriced units..

Overpriced compared to what? Free hackware? 

Edited by SharpeXB

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4 hours ago, Leifr said:

Anecdote, as always.

Out of our group of regular fliers, the only players who have never had an issue with head-tracking are those using TrackIR. The other guys have all tried various homebrew methods and cheaper set-ups, they have all periodically vented frustration at the equipment failing at some point during flight-time. This isn't to say that TrackIR is clearly the best, I think the hardware is pretty shite for what you pay (plastic headclips, etc etc) but it works.

Its the opposite with me. Never had issues with Edtracker Pro. The issues with TiR though, were minor. Sometimes (not often) I lost tracking when I look at extreme axis along the pitch (up and down view). Didnt help repositioning and reangling of the TiR unit. With that said, it would be fair to say that TiR is a great unit just like the Edtracker Pro, its just that I prefer the Edtracker Pro (already explained why). I dont know about other tracker alternatives (delanclip etc) but I personally, never had serious issues with TiR or EdtrackerPro. Ofcourse, if the "true 6DOF" is a must then TiR is the only option. Dont forget that Edtracker pro costed me 56 EUR (including shipping and VAT for EU) and the cheapest I could get TrackIR 5 is 150 EUR (including shipping from the USA but without the VAT). Its even more expensive if you order from EU and you pay VAT also. Thats like 3-4 times more. Its cheaper in the USA.

Heck, TODAY if you want to invest money into tracker, better is the cheaper solution or just go straight ahead and pick VR.

And to put the things into perspective. For the money you must cash for new TrackIR 5, you can buy Edtracker Pro and regular Gladiator MK2 and you will have some cash left to spend.

Edited by blackram

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Yup, I managed to buy my TIR set quite cheaply from the USA several years back. If I was looking for a head tracking clip today, I would probably buy an alternative - especially when one considers the construction materials used.

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1 hour ago, Leifr said:

Yup, I managed to buy my TIR set quite cheaply from the USA several years back. If I was looking for a head tracking clip today, I would probably buy an alternative - especially when one considers the construction materials used.

After I broke my first track clip pro I'm more cautious now ;) 

Edited by ST_ami7b5

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3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If opentrack is legitimate why is it free?

Why would anyone make software and give it away free unless there were intellectual property or copywrite problems that prevent them from selling it commercially?

 

There are many reasons to release free software, including hobbies and altruism. Most entities (both commercial and noncommercial) use some elements of free software in their products. There is nothing sinister about it. Releasing software for free doesn't make it exempt from copyright problems.

 

Copyright law is much more nuanced than "TrackIR functionality = infringement".

 

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The only criticisms I've had about TrackIR is the durability of the headphone clip and no wireless option. I received my wireless DelanClip yesterday, and my first tests with it indicate it's a great piece of equipment (using it with the TrackIR 5 camera). 

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On 2/14/2019 at 10:59 AM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

There are many reasons to release free software, including hobbies and altruism. Most entities (both commercial and noncommercial) use some elements of free software in their products. There is nothing sinister about it. Releasing software for free doesn't make it exempt from copyright problems.

I assume if it was possible to legitimately sell Opentrack then it would be payware. This optical tracking stuff not simple to develop I’m sure. Anything worth doing is worth doing for money. Perusing infringement against free hack-ware is probably not worth the money. Like getting blood from a stone. And you can’t prevent it from being shared all over anyways. The most NatrualPoint could do was require to block this freeware from their officially compatable products. Again if memory serves me, this did happen for a short time with BoS.  

Edited by SharpeXB

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41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If it was possible to legitimately sell Opentrack then it would be payware. This optical tracking stuff not simple to develop I’m sure. Anything worth doing is worth doing for money. Perusing infringement against free hack-ware is probably not worth the money. Like getting blood from a stone. And you can’t prevent it from being shared all over anyways. The most NatrualPoint could do was require to block this freeware from their officially compatable products. Again if memory serves me, this did happen for a short time with BoS.  

 

What evidence of infringement do you have? 

 

They appear to be quite thorough with listing 3rd party notices, etc. Perhaps you can look at the code and point out a part that is improper?

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On 2/14/2019 at 2:22 PM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

What evidence of infringement do you have? 

 

They appear to be quite thorough with listing 3rd party notices, etc. Perhaps you can look at the code and point out a part that is improper?

Freeware like that actually hurts customers because it hinders the development of legitimate products. Let’s say ED tracker wanted to develop its own software for “RF Tracker” as an example. Who can get into the market if there’s a free alternative? 

Would it help us all if someone made a free hackware WWII flight sim game?

Thats why there are patents and copywrites to protect innovators. I figure Opentrack has violeted something or it wouldn’t be free. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Who can get into the market if there’s a free alternative? 

Everyone that wants to, because everyone can use the free software either directly with their own hardware or as a starting point for their own improved projects.

 

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Freeware like that actually hurts customers because it hinders the development of legitimate products.

LOL. De-facto monopolies and anticompetitive practices are what actually hurt customers. 

Capture.thumb.PNG.dd0c44a448243d5068ced1913af7776b.PNG

 

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Would it help us all if someone made a free hackware WWII flight sim game?

If someone made their own game that happened to be fun, there would be absolutely no harm (I still don't know what you mean by "hackware". Is it some sort of attempt to equate freeware with piracy without actually calling it piracy?).

 

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Thats why there are patents and copywrites to protect innovators. Guarantee Opentrack has violeted something or it wouldn’t be free.

Yet you present no evidence. NaturalPoint has no patent for controlling game cameras with head movement. Copyright does not cover accessing certain locations in a computer's memory. APIs aren't covered either in much of the world.

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^ Again if it was a legitimate product someone would be selling it and supporting it. 

5 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Capture.thumb.PNG.dd0c44a448243d5068ced1913af7776b.PNG

 

^ NaturalPoint defending their intellectual property as they’re entitled to do. This is the only course they can take because I’m sure it’s unprofitable to take legal action against people with no money. That’s why this imitation software is free. If it made money then it would open them to being sued. 

Competition helps consumers but only legitimate competition. If you want NaturalPoint to have competition in this market, they won’t. Because likely no other company will develope a product for a use that’s fulfilled by hacked freeware. So the freeware just assures NP a “monopoly” because now no other company will develop opical head tracking software. See how that works. 

 

5 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

If someone made their own game that happened to be fun, there would be absolutely no harm 

If it was a free game “reverse engineered” from the Digital Nature engine?

Whatever you do for a living, hope someone else doesn’t just put it up free on the internet in order to cut into your business  

Edited by SharpeXB

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19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

^ Again if it was a legitimate product someone would be selling it and supporting it. 

 

^ NaturalPoint defending their intellectual property as they’re entitled to do.

 

Legitimate? What are you talking about? There are tons of free and legit software around. Opentrack is on of them. If it wasnt it would be forbidden long ago.

What is intellectual property of Naturalpoint? IR tracking? Software which helps tracking devices? I dont understand.

BTW, at first, Naturalpoint developed TiR for disabled people. Then they realized they could cash the thing. So the "gaming device" was to be sold.

Plese dont defend them.

 

 

 

Edited by blackram

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10 hours ago, blackram said:

 

Legitimate? What are you talking about? There are tons of free and legit software around. Opentrack is on of them. If it wasnt it would be forbidden long ago.

What is intellectual property of Naturalpoint? IR tracking? Software which helps tracking devices? I dont understand.

BTW, at first, Naturalpoint developed TiR for disabled people. Then they realized they could cash the thing. So the "gaming device" was to be sold.

Plese dont defend them.

 

 

 

If the free products are legit why does NP ask ED to block them? I assume because this is the only course NP can take against unlawful competitors. There’s no profit is suing people who have no money. That’s why this hackware is given away for free. 

If you’re trying to make “evil” purpose out of having a business and making money, you need to go back to school or something. Spare us the hacker culture diatribe. Selling products and making money is not wrong. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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