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Hello  everyone!

Can soembody help me, how should I aim with 400-500m vertical gun convergence?
(I mean how should I use the revi)
Because I can easy shot with 300 m convergence in deflections, but with 400-500 I can't hit a turning fighter.

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I did, but sometimes I needed longer distance convergance. This is why i switched.

And I can aim with any convergance but without vertical convergance. But in this game I can't disable it. 😢

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Are you tying to aim the MK108 that far? 108 needs to be aimed noticeably more upwards for convergence at 500 meters (why do you need it so far anyway?) due to (s)low muzzle velocity - it's shell needs almost one whole second to travel that far. In one second an object in free fall covers 5 meters (so you need to aim your cannon that much higher!).

Edited by CrazyDuck

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Well, in the 109 u r not really going to need to shoot from far away ... plan ur attack in a way to engage with higher energy and get close to the enemy. Ur previous convergence is pretty good already (300m) and shooting from further distances will only decrease the power of the hit and ur accuracy. In the majority of scenarios you are going to be faster than the enemy so there is no real need for longer distances imho.

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400+m convergence for shooting?

 

I used to think 400 was a good distance for convergence and I learned that I couldn't hit a thing with that and firing so far out (Air or Ground).

 

Bring it back to under 200 and get up close on those targets.  Better chance of hitting them and directing the fire over areas of the aircraft that can bring it down.  If you are worried about bombers and their return fire, learn to side slip your plane using slight ailerons and reasonable amount of rudder keeping your horizon level but your path zig zagging.  Think of being a slippery eel so it is hard for the gunners to get a lead on you.

 

For fighter engagements, don't bother shooting until the fighter fills your sight.  If it is turning follow it, pull a little tighter bringing your nose to theirs and squeeze the trigger for a short burst.  Observe your hits, add correction if required and then another short burst.  Repeat until you feel there is enough damage on the plane to disengage and go for the next.

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For MK108 I prefer convergence of 400m, it is vertical convergence as well and it helps with leading on heavy turning enemies.

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Thanks I know how u do it!

4 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

For MK108 I prefer convergence of 400m, it is vertical convergence as well and it helps with leading on heavy turning enemies.

 

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On 1/20/2019 at 3:22 AM, AeroAce said:

Thanks I know how u do it!

 

Why do I smell sarcasm.

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I'm not really sure to get what you guys call "vertical convergence" as Il-2 BoX doesn't allow such a setting AFAIK, though IRL pilots were setting each part of their weaponry (again AFAIK), sometimes even leading to asymetrical convergence ; but I guess that you mean that the farthest the horizontal convergence, the higher the guns actually fire, on the vertical axis so ?

Edited by Solmyr

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As already pointed out by previous posters, shooting at maneuvering targets from 500m is a waste of ammo if you could get into a shooting position at close range. Typically, there are two situations in which I try: a) When one of my squaddies is in a desperate position and every second counts. b) A target is trying to extend. In both situations landing hits is a nice-to-have, but the main effect is psychological, putting the enemy under stress and eventually forcing him to start hard evasives, thus offering me a shot at close range.

 

MG151/20 bullets need around 1.5 seconds to reach a target at 500 m. A lot of things can happen during that time. You need to memorize gunsight pictures corresponding to a few standard situations at your most frequently used shooting distance. From these you can extrapolate many other situations. One example: a target at 30 degrees aspect flying with 350 kph TAS must have his spinner on the revi ring in order to be bit in the cockpit area. In other words I need 1r (one revi radius) of lead. This is true for 50-300 m, a zone in which we can regard bullet speed as constant. The same target at the same speed and aspect will require more lead at 500 m, since bullets have slowed significantly at that range. So I'd approximate a lead of 1.5r. If you both came out of a dive and he runs at 700 kph, you already need 3r of lead. If he runs with 700 kph and 30 degrees aspect you need 6r of lead.

 

Regarding gun harmonization in the 109 (all fuselage-mounted): I'd harmonize the guns for the difficult long-range shot (500 m). This eliminates one unknown from your difficult long-range shooting equation: the bullets will cross your sighting line at that range. Now you must find out the range at which the bullets will cross the sighting line for the first time. This will likely be between 100 and 200 m. Go into qmb, hit the level autopilot, switch to external view, pull the camera to 500 m distance from your plane and place it in the bullet stream. You are now on the gunsight's line of sight. Now move the camera closer and note the distance at which the bullets hit it again. This is the first crossing point. Your bullets are below the line of sight btwn your plane and the first crossing point, and again beyond the second crossing point (500 m). They are above the line of sight between the two crossing points.

 

I've requested realistic gun harmonization in the suggestion thread, because what we have now is extremely simplified. Please support the suggestion here:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/767-thread-to-gather-your-suggestions/?do=findComment&comment=686872

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I once did a test using AI aircraft to see how much damage my Spitfires guns did at particular ranges and get screenshots at the moment of impact. I used an offline quick mission against two 109s.   To do this properly and consistently I had to stop making deflection shots and snap shots and attack from six with the wings in the proper place on the gunsight.   

When flying this mission before,  I had taken a while to get both opponents and often only managed to kill one and merely damage the other before running out of ammo and part of the reason was that I wanted to kill the first one as quickly as possible before his wingman could latch onto me .  During the test it was no surprise that refusing to take snap shots stopped me using up my ammo so fast  but what did surprise me was that being patient, saving my shots and waiting until I was in the perfect position actually allowed me to consistently kill both aircraft quicker!   

So the moral of my story is that, at least in my experience,  you should forget about trying long range deflection shots and just concentrate on getting into the perfect position to kill in one short burst.

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Since the DM changed, getting kills while using machinegun fire of any calibre requires to get into 150m range. Before the change it was worth taking snaphots since even few long distance hits could cripple most airframes. So now only cannon rounds work up to 500m, and even that is not very effective. Using aircraft as Spitfire or Yak with limited ammo load is especially altered in a way you approach your enemy.

 

The problem is, getting close, really close requires piloting skill, arguably greater than skill required to land snaphots.

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I

10 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Since the DM changed, getting kills while using machinegun fire of any calibre requires to get into 150m range. Before the change it was worth taking snaphots since even few long distance hits could cripple most airframes. So now only cannon rounds work up to 500m, and even that is not very effective. Using aircraft as Spitfire or Yak with limited ammo load is especially altered in a way you approach your enemy.

 

The problem is, getting close, really close requires piloting skill, arguably greater than skill required to land snaphots.

 

I agree.  The one time I still take crossing snapshots with Mg is when the person I am chasing starts doing horizontal scissors and continually crossing my sights at under 200m. It is worth it then as there is a good chance of doing debilitating damage for little effort or ammo expenditure.   I have also had occasions when on a long tail chase with no real chance of getting into  effective gun range a quick well aimed Mg burst has been enough to make the enemy panic and start maneuvering violently and allow me to get into gun range.

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16 hours ago, Solmyr said:

I'm not really sure to get what you guys call "vertical convergence" as Il-2 BoX doesn't allow such a setting AFAIK, though IRL pilots were setting each part of their weaponry (again AFAIK), sometimes even leading to asymetrical convergence ; but I guess that you mean that the farthest the horizontal convergence, the higher the guns actually fire, on the vertical axis so ?

It doesnt allow for deliberate setting, but AFAIK setting your convergence slider also moves your vertical convergence. The best way to notice this is on mk108.

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20 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

It doesnt allow for deliberate setting, but AFAIK setting your convergence slider also moves your vertical convergence. The best way to notice this is on mk108. 

You're right. In reality quite often different horizontal and vertical gun harmonizations were used on one plane. This allowed the creation of complex hit patterns.

One example: Fw190A8

All 4 20mm were harmonized to 550 m vertically, as shown in following diagram (lateral view, y=0 is the sighting line).

Screenshot_2018-11-01-00-24-33-213.thumb.jpeg.9d2df33813d62c3919667b1ffc3191b4.jpeg

 

Horizontally, the outer 20ies were harmonized to 400m, and the inner 20ies to 600, as shown in the following diagram (top view). This created a pattern of limited spread at the vertical harmonization points ( 135 and 550 m, where the bullets crossed the sighting line). The machine guns were not harmonized horizontally, i.e. their bullet streams never crossed. 

Unfortunately we can't even set different convergences for the different guns in-game, let alone different vertical and horizontal convergences.

 

Screenshot_2018-11-01-00-25-14-915.thumb.jpeg.d3e0ee9cf2e563e92f00dbfb495a3eb4.jpeg

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Hi gents,

 

i am using also the historical convergence of the FW190D-9 with 550m. And it works perfect for long range shots up to 350m and also for close range shots under 100m in the FW190, even with the outer wing guns. But i shot most of the time with the weapons group 1 ( 2x 13mm + 2x 20mm inner wings ).  The outer wing guns i save till the inner 20mm are empty. So i have 2x ( 2x13mm + 2x 20mm ) till the 13mm are empty. Full guns only for hard deflection shots. As the outer wing guns will hit the target in the middle of the wings at close range, i aim a little bit left or right from the fuselage. So 1x 20mm will hit inner wings, fuselage or engine/pilot section and the other one will hit the middle wing section. Works as good as weapon group 1. For the 109 i use the same 550m as for the FW190 to hit.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

Edited by 1./JG2_Little_D

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I'm struggling to understand what some people mean when they say we can't set vertical convergence. 

 

Are we not doing this already as when you want the rounds to land correctly in your sight at a longer range the barrel must be adjusted in the vertical plane?

 

What am I missing? 

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why you need shoot soo far? remenber bullets loss energy and the damage is low, so try better start to shoot at 250 - 300 mtrs my convergence is 280 mtrs.

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1 hour ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

Hi gents,

 

i am using also the historical convergence of the FW190D-9 with 550m. And it works perfect for long range shots up to 350m and also for close range shots under 100m in the FW190, even with the outer wing guns. But i shot most of the time with the weapons group 1 ( 2x 13mm + 2x 20mm inner wings ).  The outer wing guns i save till the inner 20mm are empty. So i have 2x ( 2x13mm + 2x 20mm ) till the 13mm are empty. Full guns only for hard deflection shots. As the outer wing guns will hit the target in the middle of the wings at close range, i aim a little bit left or right from the fuselage. So 1x 20mm will hit inner wings, fuselage or engine/pilot section and the other one will hit the middle wing section. Works as good as weapon group 1. For the 109 i use the same 550m as for the FW190 to hit.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

Wait what? D9 is out? For how long? I MUST GET ON ASAP!

 

1 hour ago, -=PHX=-Geo- said:

why you need shoot soo far? remenber bullets loss energy and the damage is low, so try better start to shoot at 250 - 300 mtrs my convergence is 280 mtrs.

Technically HE(most importantly Minengeschoss) shouldnt depend on kinetic energy of the projectile so much, since their damage potential is comming from it's chemical energy contained in the filler. AP(I) on the other hand need high velocity to do some damage.

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52 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Wait what? D9 is out? For how long? I MUST GET ON ASAP!

 

Technically HE(most importantly Minengeschoss) shouldnt depend on kinetic energy of the projectile so much, since their damage potential is comming from it's chemical energy contained in the filler. AP(I) on the other hand need high velocity to do some damage.

 

Are u sure? AFAIK the shell needs to have at least some degree of penetration into the AC skin in order to cause any significant damage.

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Hi gents

 

@Geo:

that i have the long distance convergence don`t  mean that i am shooting at long range. Normal fire range is for me about 200m down to 80m.

But under some conditions a short burst at 350m is enough to bring a fighter down in seconds. Also is it my impression that set the convergence to the

historical distance makes more damage than some non historical. All late 109 are also set to an convergence from 550m. With this high convergence

you can kill a bomber from long distance and a fighter at close range. As the 20mm will cross the sight line first at about 130m and the second time at 550m.

The 30mm should cross first time at 80m and second at 550m. Also when a enemy fighter is close to full in the sight it is about 130m away so you will hit.

 

@D3adCZE:

 

No it is not out and as i don`t had the convergence pig from the FW190A-8 i used the one from FW190D-9., Also in DCS they had the historical convergence set

at 550m and with the auto lead from the gun sight that is also coviguratet for 550m it makes sence to use it.

 

@all:

 

what i learned about deflection shooting is, that the distance doesen`t matters, only speed and angle, do get the right leed to hit the target.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

Edited by 1./JG2_Little_D

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Interesting that CLoD models vertical as well as horizontal convergence.

You can go into settings and vary it for each MG.

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2 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Technically HE(most importantly Minengeschoss) shouldnt depend on kinetic energy of the projectile so much, since their damage potential is comming from it's chemical energy contained in the filler. AP(I) on the other hand need high velocity to do some damage.

yes, high distance equal to low accurate, maybe if you are a tanks gunner you wanna shoot too far but by one figther this is just waste of precious anmunition

 

1 hour ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

that i have the long distance convergence don`t  mean that i am shooting at long range.

so why you set long convergence?

 

1 hour ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

With this high convergence

you can kill a bomber from long distance

 its a very  waste of time and anmunition, one bomber too far  just move on from your burst, maybe work whit IA but one human sure move it. You need stay close enough to make all damage posible, in the minor time and with the minor anmunition posible, taking care obviously whit the gunner enemy.

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Hi Geo,

 

as it would take to long to explain it all the way, i try the short way.

 

1.) there is a reason why every air force had a standard convergence for there planes, guns and tactical use, LW was: 1. Bomber, 2. fighter 3. what they found.

So no need make a new wheel and thrust there science and reasons.  As i wrote before 550m for bomber has the same leed than a fighter at 130m. And this makes

you much more flexible in air combat. And as you try to kill a fighter over 350m is a wast of ammo, but when you can aim it is no problem to kill a fighter at 350m

with a 2 sec. burst with gun group 1 or all guns 109 ( speed and angle is important not distance). And for bomber it is also no waste of ammo bigger target, but for

all this you need to know the leed and where to aim. Open fire at 250m with gun group 1 and at 150m all guns, all in all 2 sec. burst, even with this new DM a fighter

is in one dive down, fire, pilot kill, wing off, back off, etc.

 

2.) If you have gimp or something like this you could take the chart, make a pic from your plane from above, cut it out. Make it small so it fit`s to the gun line`s at the chart.

Do the same for an average enemy fighter and than look where your guns hit and for the damaged could be done at different distances, with all guns or gun group 1.

 

3. Ground pounding, extreme good for killing AAA from 600m with 0,5 - 1 sec burst with all guns 109 or gun group 1 for FW.

 

4. I only fire 2 sec. burst`s on my enemy, this is enough for all fighters in game. All guns or gun group1 depends on situation and speed and angle in MP,  so no waste of ammo

and no AI.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1./JG2_Little_D

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2 sec burst seems quite big to me. 🙄 They're rare here mostly flying the MiG-3 with UBS weaponry. (Only 2 x 12,7 so). Ammo speaking, you guys are rich.. 😁

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