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mayfly625

damage on the tiger

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With the latest update damage I took three shots of apcr shell to kill a t34.  But a T34 76 took one shot at 600yds through the trees to kill me !

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well... if this is a tank SIM as promised.. the AI (or the player) might have been lucky and hit a weakspot (a vision port left open, turret optics, commanders hatch ports, flat angle pen into ammunition...)
Theorycrafting.. ofc... no valid information about the current state of the damage model atm available (which might be more advanced than its visual representation).

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Read this thread as well Mayfly and it might help clarify this a bit better.DM It's a work in Progress.....  We are waiting for an update sometime in the future to correct this problem  For now, don't take the sim to seriously, but just have fun with what's currently available.  

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I regret having bought tank crew, now the t34 destroy you with a single blow from 7-800 meters. instead you have to shoot 3 at a minimum. playing online has become impossible and boring. 100 players on the red side and 3 on the German side. I hope they will remedy these problems.

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Guys,who play for the blue side!You should invite your old pals to join the server when its at its peak hours.Around 20 00 through 00 00  EU time sat. and sun.( and most of the week too).Its not the REDs fault that they sometimes have more players on the server).
As for the DM in game,i guess some of you havent found the T-34's G-spot yet.It exists!Have fun exploring!:gamer:

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On 1/14/2019 at 3:40 PM, mayfly625 said:

With the latest update damage I took three shots of apcr shell to kill a t34.  But a T34 76 took one shot at 600yds through the trees to kill me !

 

A bit like the original Russian planes then.

I wonder if the bias were the same if this had been developed by a German team.

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We need a fast German tank. The Tiger is a big target and slow and the Pz III is just as slow. T-wagons can just sprint round the Germans to the victory flags in the rear.

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I think the problem with the exagerrated effect of HE is not 'russian bias' as is claimed here a lot.

Yes, it gives the red side an advantage, T34 facing off to Tiger, front to front, relative to the real tanks, because T34 IRL wouldnt get through the front tiger armor. This is a modelling error, but I don't think it's selective.

When I hit T34s from various distances with the Tiger 8.8 HE, they are on average mostly taken out with the first hit, sometimes 2, sometimes 3.

This is still better than the effect of the T34s 7.6 HE against the Tiger, where a 1 hit kill can occur, but is rarer.

The tank most disadvantaged by the exagerration of the HE effect is the Pz3, with its smaller caliber gun, I think.

Funnily though, shooting at the Pz3 with the T34s HE is still relatively ineffective, maybe to do with the shape or how the armor thicknesses aren't varied as much? IDK...

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1 hour ago, stupor-mundi said:

 maybe to do with the shape or how the armor thicknesses aren't varied as much? IDK...

Good point there.
 Looks like the HE rounds work the same against all of the tanks, pretty much, as of now.Especially effective on the turret and the hull roofs

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Isn't the DM a WIP?

 

That said, I always thought this was a ridiculously interesting exception to the force on force ratios though. I know people like to refer to Wittmann and all, but unlike him Staudegger's run is backed up by hundreds of witnesses including Soviet corroboration of the events.

Quote

Over the course of the battle his tank was hit by Russian 76mm gunfire an astounding 67 times and yet was able to continue the fight and deliver its occupants to safety. Staudegger and his crew had not only destroyed 22 Russian tanks.

 

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/war-history-online-quiz-world-war-ii.html

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Speaking of the DM issue.

 

This is actually a really good discussion with pretty well researched information and then an in game demonstration.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Thad said:

A Single Tigers' Exploits During the Battle Of Kursk

 

It is obvious that there is something amiss in TC.


I wonder what the source is. I don't mean that as an attack just that I learned to be suspicious.

*edit
I mean, the first comment under the video claims that the two T-34 were destroyed by Panzergrenadiers and that Soviets only had 34 of T-34, 12 destroyed and 5 damaged that day include from air attack.

Edited by Fliegel

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   Near the village of Bobrik, Major Sauvant’s Tigers had finished a leisurely breakfast and re-supply while sitting in an overwatch position and awaiting orders to resume the attack. Sauvant was one of the most experienced junior Panzer commanders in the Heer, having risen from company commander in Poland in 1939 to battalion commander in 1942 and even being one of the lucky few from the old 14.Panzer-Division to survive Stalingrad. Now Sauvant was provided with the perfect killing machine in an optimal tactical position.

 

   Sauvant’s crews spotted the approaching mass of Soviet armor and had plenty of time to ram Panzergranate rounds into their breaches and select targets. Polkovnik Nikolai M. Teliakov, a veteran tanker himself, led the lead 107th Tank Brigade. Sauvant’s Tigers began the engagement at about 1,200 meters with the 8.8cm rounds ripping into the lead Soviet tank company. Although the Soviet tankers could clearly see the Tigers, return fire was completely ineffective at this range. Teliakov had difficulty controlling his brigade, which was being shot to pieces in just a few minutes, but finally managed to extract some survivors and beat a hasty retreat. In less than fifteen minutes, Teliakov’s brigade lost 46 of his tanks for no loss to Sauvant’s Tigers.

 

Reference: Forczyk, Robert. Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1943-1945: Red Steamroller . Pen and Sword. 

 

Edited by Thad
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I know this. Though that is another story like from memoir.

Even though I have no problem believe that 16 dug in Tigers would be able to do that to attacking T-34.
My point wasn't that Tiger is unable to destroy T-34 at long distance by one shot. They could. It was point just about stories.

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It sounds to me like maybe the HE rounds "area of effect" damage is maybe getting through the weaker parts of the tiger like the vision slits. This is obviously just speculation. Any ways I plan on picking up tank crew, but I'm in no rush until the damage model is sorted. Correct damage modelling for tanks seems much more important than it is for planes.

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i've just been using the 3 other tanks (yet to try the tiger) and they all are a lot of fun. haven't noticed any issues with their damage model. 

Edited by gad11

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I see LOT of them in Single Player mission. Yesterday a had a single T-34 take fifty - sixty hits from a mass of advancing axis tanks and it kept taking it, causing the AI to waste fire on it. It was ridiculous.

 

I've seen in another of my missions a heavy KV-1s tank strike a 38t German light tank multiple times and the 38t kept right on moving up the road past the Kv-1 all the while taking hits. That's just wrong in the extreme. Even if the Kv-1 rounds (any type) were going completely through the light tank.... it should cause a lot of damage and stop it.

 

Regardless, I'm sure the developers will get a handle on such anomalies eventually. :salute:

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On 1/19/2019 at 2:49 AM, DetCord12B said:

Speaking of the DM issue.

 

This is actually a really good discussion with pretty well researched information and then an in game demonstration.

 

 

*Sigh*. Why am I not feeling any suprise. :(

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Well I was in a T-34 last night and as i spawned into a base I got taken out with 2 hit's from tigers before I could even start the engine.....

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2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Devs Bias accusation...

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Yeah. The current state of the DM is deplorable ... I just hit @Navigator-IL62 in the back of his T34 from 100m and he stayed alive. He finally spotted me after taking the second hit (yup you read it right 2 hits from 100m to the back of his tank) and, guess what, 1 hit he destroyed the Tiger lol ... I'm totally fine with being killed with 1 hit from realistic ranges but I expect the same behavior when I hit the T34. I'm sure a T34 would not survive a 100m 88m round to the back of the tank but the crappy DM allows this kind of thing to happen. I'm starting to think the DM is more like a health bar than a component simulation at this point ...

A new patch just came out ... I doubt anything has changed regarding the T34 as they only mention corrections to the Tiger but let's see ...

Edited by SCG_Riksen

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52 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

A new patch just came out ... I doubt anything has changed regarding the T34 as they only mention corrections to the Tiger but let's see ...

 

Agreed... let's see. :o:

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[edited]

 

 

On a side note slow your roll, brah. Everyone needs to slow their roll. The DM is still a WIP on the Tiger and KV. The PzIII and T-34 of old still need to be overhauled, which will happen. At present, they're more concerned with executing the expansion and its current selection of vehicles before moving on to what was ( PzIII/T-34) a mod of sorts done in the developers free time several years ago.

 

Do you guys have any idea how intricate and difficult it is to simulate ballistics for kinetic weapons? It's hard. Like really, really ridiculously hard. You need to take into account distance, charge, angle, round, slope, trajectory, gun type and caliber, and a myriad of other facets. To put this into perspective, the guys behind Steel Beasts, you know that sim the US Military and others across the globe use? Well they spent almost a decade researching and creating their DM for the vehicles depicted for their product. Hopefully it won't take that long....

 

But TC in in early access. Just give them some time.  

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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Hi all,

 

Accusations of bias by the devs wont be tolerated at all.

 

2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

 

Haash

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Directly after 3.010c update I made some quick testing and short MP gameplay.

 

The "special" vulnerabilty of the tiger against T34 HE shells seem to be fixed. Can others confirm this?

 

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1 hour ago, Fisheye said:

Directly after 3.010c update I made some quick testing and short MP gameplay.

 

The "special" vulnerabilty of the tiger against T34 HE shells seem to be fixed. Can others confirm this?

 

I confirm.It is fixed.

10 hours ago, 1./JG42flesch said:

 

What in the world did you write this time?Accusations?:banned:

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Tested the game today:
T-34 and KV-1 can still take out the Tiger tank frontally with one shot, no problem but most of us german players had to hit the T-34 several times before it got taken out.

I shot a T-34 in the ass from 100 meters with my tiger: The shot bounces, not until the 3 shot I penetrate and it is blown up, all gun statistics and data shows that would never happen in real life.

 

Then I played with panzer III: Got attacked by 2 T-34s but they couldnt penetrate my armour, I think I shrug of around 40 shots before my tank was fully taken out, so a panzer III has better armour than a tiger, who knew? And this was from 800 meters distance.

 

If the game keeps being like this then I will come to the conclusion: its not a simulator game as the tank data and behaviour is just like in warthunder and I better play that, as I dont find the realism I seek from a tank simulator here.

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9 hours ago, judgedeath3 said:

Tested the game today:
T-34 and KV-1 can still take out the Tiger tank frontally with one shot, no problem but most of us german players had to hit the T-34 several times before it got taken out.

I shot a T-34 in the ass from 100 meters with my tiger: The shot bounces, not until the 3 shot I penetrate and it is blown up, all gun statistics and data shows that would never happen in real life.

 

Then I played with panzer III: Got attacked by 2 T-34s but they couldnt penetrate my armour, I think I shrug of around 40 shots before my tank was fully taken out, so a panzer III has better armour than a tiger, who knew? And this was from 800 meters distance.

 

If the game keeps being like this then I will come to the conclusion: its not a simulator game as the tank data and behaviour is just like in warthunder and I better play that, as I dont find the realism I seek from a tank simulator here.

 

Please provide a track record - it's hard to determine what have happened using only words.

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I have provided proof as you requested in the other topic but it was deleted Han (admittedly it was not the best place to post them). Thank you for replying to us and considering the DM issue Han, we appreciate it. Here are some videos showing the problems we have:

 

 

 

 

 

Hope you can see that at the angles shown, the rounds should not ricochet on the surface of the T34 and result in an instant kill.

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to look at the issue.

 

Cheers

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Guys, the developers can't help you by just reading your descriptions or watching a video.You need to share your record files in order to see what's going on. 

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17 hours ago, Fisheye said:

The "special" vulnerabilty of the tiger against T34 HE shells seem to be fixed. Can others confirm this?

Confirm.

But there are another tiger's vulnerabilty issues (in MP game). For exaple - imho too often penetration of frontal armor and player's death at range > 500 m.

Also unrealistic death of all crew member except tank commander.

+ there are some problems with 88-mm tiger's gun. I'd say its shells are pretty weak. Or maybe T-34's armor too thick, I don't know.. Very often just can't knock out T-34 even after 5-10 shots..

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9 hours ago, Han said:

 

Please provide a track record - it's hard to determine what have happened using only words.

Pretty clear from all info from users on the forum, but shall try to: Where do I find the track records, as I dont record my games, and didnt see any such option in the game?

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On 2/15/2019 at 7:24 AM, SCG_Riksen said:

I have provided proof as you requested in the other topic but it was deleted Han (admittedly it was not the best place to post them). Thank you for replying to us and considering the DM issue Han, we appreciate it. Here are some videos showing the problems we have:

 

Hope you can see that at the angles shown, the rounds should not ricochet on the surface of the T34 and result in an instant kill.

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to look at the issue.

 

Cheers

 

I wish I had a better understanding of how the ballistics simulation works in IL-2 because I honestly have no idea. Not being able to run into a ArmA3 like real-time editor, load up the terminal ballistics sim, and see an actual projectile is a bit of a bummer. Coupled with the fact that all the tanks visual DM is the same as the aircraft in IL-2. That being that it's abstract, and points of impact do not render damage according.     

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After a few hours playing on the red side against player controlled tigers :

 

T34 with APCR

Facing straight front, shooting through the front plate : 1 shot fairly consistently (dead crew)

Facing sideways, shooting at the side armour under the middle of the turret : ammo detonation every single time.

 

KV1 with same APCR ammo :

Facing front, but tiger angled correctly : not much effect, sometimes a lucky hit through the gunner optics.

Facing sideways, same sweet spot as with the T34. Tiger blows off at the first hit.

 

All shot takens from under 500m (probably 200-300 in average), at longer ranges the ammo don't do much against the front armor of the big cat, but his 88mm just ruins your day.

For some reasons it feels like I got one shoted more often at long ranges (1+km) by the 88 than at close range, KV1 and T34 alike, but that may only be feelings.

 

So all in all, nothing blatantly wrong with the Tiger armor, just don't underestimated the soviet APCR at close range, because it does the job against the super flat armor (APCR card says 130mm of pen at point blank). Angle correctly, keep your distances and communicate to avoid getting flanked. What might be worth to look upon though is why the 88mm seems less effective at short ranges, if proved that it really is.

 

 

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber
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Agree with the post above. Tiger is being destroyed easily at ranges that it should be but the 88mm is severely underpowered at close ranges for some reason. Sometimes it takes more than 4 hits to destroy a t34 at close ranges but at far distances, the guns seems more effective ...

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On 2/17/2019 at 7:00 PM, F/JG300_Gruber said:

After a few hours playing on the red side against player controlled tigers :

 

T34 with APCR

Facing straight front, shooting through the front plate : 1 shot fairly consistently (dead crew)

Facing sideways, shooting at the side armour under the middle of the turret : ammo detonation every single time.

 

KV1 with same APCR ammo :

Facing front, but tiger angled correctly : not much effect, sometimes a lucky hit through the gunner optics.

Facing sideways, same sweet spot as with the T34. Tiger blows off at the first hit.

 

All shot takens from under 500m (probably 200-300 in average), at longer ranges the ammo don't do much against the front armor of the big cat, but his 88mm just ruins your day.

For some reasons it feels like I got one shoted more often at long ranges (1+km) by the 88 than at close range, KV1 and T34 alike, but that may only be feelings.

 

So all in all, nothing blatantly wrong with the Tiger armor, just don't underestimated the soviet APCR at close range, because it does the job against the super flat armor (APCR card says 130mm of pen at point blank). Angle correctly, keep your distances and communicate to avoid getting flanked. What might be worth to look upon though is why the 88mm seems less effective at short ranges, if proved that it really is.

 

 

but it is 130mm 100m !

                92mm 500m !

100Meter130mmT34STZ.jpg

Edited by 7./SchG2_v*Athlon
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