Jump to content
zelil

Icon rework

Recommended Posts

I know I hate em but in VR I cant see any other option at the moment due to how crappy the headsets are at this time . With that I would like to see some changes to the icon system That would work better for the VR environment.

1: Icons need to be line of sight, right now I can see them through the plane instrument panel and its kinda unfair

2 : With the line of sight they need to be obscured by clouds 

3: I don't need so much info in the header let me decide what info I want 

4: They need to be much smaller they look like big box's in VR just a little speck to help you

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, it is not possible to hide them by clouds and too complex to reduce them.

 

Edited by lefuneste
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2019 at 7:11 PM, zelil said:

I know I hate em but in VR I cant see any other option at the moment due to how crappy the headsets are at this time . With that I would like to see some changes to the icon system That would work better for the VR environment.

1: Icons need to be line of sight, right now I can see them through the plane instrument panel and its kinda unfair

2 : With the line of sight they need to be obscured by clouds 

3: I don't need so much info in the header let me decide what info I want 

4: They need to be much smaller they look like big box's in VR just a little speck to help you

 

1: ofc. Also 1b: plz let us remove those terrible and so gamey arrows around the screen.

2: ofc. Also they need to be obscured by any other plane, and ground units labels need to be obscured by trees, buildings, etc, anything that is between the object and the player's virtual head.

3: ofc. But create a new "Normal" standard of settings with nothing else than the spotting help (see 1b in add), anything more is really for beginners, particularly shown exact distance.

 

I have absolutely nothing against gamey/arcadish settings players, but for now, a lot of players are jammed between a very gamey package of settings and a very optimistic package of settings regarding our FoV, resolution (screen or VR), FPS, V-Sync, Gamma etc etc combined to our screen width, sight acuteness, hardware ergonomy etc. So that for players like me "Expert" settings are a complete no go as I can't spot any light plane beyond 300-500m, which is ridiculously bad. Same goes for navigation, how could I handle a proper navigation when landscape details and distance draw are crappy ?

 

Why did I say "of course" to every iteration ? Because in my humble opinion all this is such an obvious quality of life features package that it should have been implemented since day 1 of the BoX series. I always got very bothered by how the things are untill now. To me it's really the main bottleneck of BoX since release, and even more now for VR users with its appearance.

Lefuneste' mod and the likes are very nice to help us in the meanwhile, but they can't solve all the problems for us : official aspect related to servers, clouds, buildings, trees etc.

Edited by Solmyr
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been asking for this kinda thing from day one and have never seen an official reply. I am starting to think there is a fundamental reason why it can't be done as a result of the lack of amy communication. 

 

@Jason_Williams is there any word from you guys about making more customisable icons?

 

Thank

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AeroAce said:

I am starting to think there is a fundamental reason why it can't be done as a result of the lack of amy communication.

 

I really hope that not. Would be terrible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

I have been asking for this kinda thing from day one and have never seen an official reply. I am starting to think there is a fundamental reason why it can't be done as a result of the lack of amy communication. 

 

@Jason_Williams is there any word from you guys about making more customisable icons?

 

Thank

No time, no resources, small team.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

No time, no resources, small team.

 

Such improvements, IMO, should be prior to even new titles, new planes.. They're generic improvements, for the whole BoX series. And some of the things we ask for are quick to do (f.e. custom label' infos). If some guys like lefuneste can do it on their own, I don't think it would be an abyss in terms of time and resources for the dev team.

 

On a side note, I'm not so sure that letting some BoX users not able to enjoy the MP as they would like to, leading to make them leave MP to focus more on SP is a very strategic thing. BoX needs and will always need more and more MP players.

Edited by Solmyr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Solmyr said:

If some guys like lefuneste can do it on their own, I don't think it would an abyss in terms of time and resources for the dev team.

 

We this is what makes me think there maybe a reason why it has not been done as if it was easywhy has it not been done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

No time, no resources, small team.

pretty much, in a nutshell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/14/2019 at 4:09 PM, Solmyr said:

If some guys like lefuneste can do it on their own, I don't think it would be an abyss in terms of time and resources for the dev team.

If anyone else can do it why should we bother about it, ehh? ;)

(Just playing Devil's Advocate. There are many such small things that the devs leave to others, we like it or not.)

Edited by sniperton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope to eventually have more icon options, but some of what you want do affect performance.

 

Jason

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

I hope to eventually have more icon options, but some of what you want do affect performance.

 

Jason

 

Thank you for giving encouraging input, Jason. I personally could live with some a bit less beautifull trees, roads or anything if we could have icons masked by clouds and objects when they should be. As I guess it's that icon masking you're refering to as affecting performance ?

Edited by Solmyr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Solmyr said:

As I guess it's that icon masking you're refering to as affecting performance ?

I guess it's the icons obscured by clouds that could and would be an issue (due to complicated calculations and the technological limits of anti-aliasing as have been explained by Jason in relation to clouds). I'm running Lefuneste's mod and I find that icons simply masked by the airframe has little to zero impact on performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

I hope to eventually have more icon options, but some of what you want do affect performance.

 

Jason

Thanks for that information, it would be great to have more icon options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

I hope to eventually have more icon options, but some of what you want do affect performance.

 

Jason

 

Having the option to remove the object ID / Name line and reduce the object icons to a simple colored shape icon would be huge for VR users. That would dramatically reduce screen clutter in large battles. 

 

Thanks for the reply.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The high priority lowest/most simple things for me are size, colour(option to have friends and foe the same), removal of text ,to be able to reduce the range at which they appear and to make them more transparent.

 

The other more complicated things like having cloud or the cockpit block them are important to me but I would not mind waiting.

 

I forget the removal of arrows. 

Edited by AeroAce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having more options in this area is a pretty good example of one of the "game play" improvements this sim desperately need.

I, personally, don't use these things (icons/arrows, etc) but, being able to have settings so that they behave more in line with the end user's desires would make more people have a more enjoyable experience.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to @lefuneste mod.  I am using it and it is great.  Icons are down to a single triangle.  No text.  

 

I can still see the icon through my plane but I think mods handle that too if you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I can still see the icon through my plane but I think mods handle that too if you want.

Sure, here's a setting for "icon masked by airframe", "no waypoint marker", "icons drawn in medium grey", "no icon text".

\bin\game\users_settings\user_var_initialization.ini

; Label/icon
;----------------
; masking by airframe : 1 = masking on, 0 = masking off
w7 = 1
; icon limitation
; waypoint display : 1 = waypoint, 0 = no waypoint
z7 = 0
; color: 1 = color, 0 = no color (gray)
x2 = 0
; gray replacement strenght (0=black, 1=white)
x4 = 0.5
; text : 0= no text, 1 = text
x3 = 0

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I can still see the icon through my plane but I think mods handle that too if you want.

 

There is something wrong in your settings then, but what is weird is that it should be masked by airframe by default, as far as I recall.

Edited by Solmyr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if all of this can be done in a mod with a couple of lines of code I guess the reason we don't have this officially is because of how to implement it, like GUI, menu settings.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

+1 to @lefuneste mod.  I am using it and it is great.  Icons are down to a single triangle.  No text.  

 

I can still see the icon through my plane but I think mods handle that too if you want.

 

@PatrickAWlson   : That should not be the case if you use default option. By default icons must be masked by airframe. Of course you can disabled it, but I think that you do not set the mod for that...

Which version are you using ?

Edited by lefuneste

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/15/2019 at 7:33 PM, Solmyr said:

 I personally could live with some a bit less beautifull trees, roads or anything if we could have icons masked by clouds and objects when they should be.

Most players would probably disagree. I wouldn’t want the graphics of the game stunted in order to have icon choices. The majority of players, judging by multiplayer, have them switched off. 

Mods can provide this feature so there’s no need for the game to add it. Custom icons could only work in single player with mods on because there aren’t enough players online to give everyone their choice of settings. And again, hardly anyone plays with them online. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have to remember that MP players make up only 5% of the player base. Most people play SP and it would be great to have different options for different skills. I am in a similar position. If you play in VR or do not have high performance PC and good monitor running everything is super high res, these intermediate options are really needed. Leaving everything to mods is just a bad idea as most players don't even know mods exist. I have been on this forum for few months now and this is the first time I hear about these mods (will try them for sure). Most players are not even in the forums. 

 

If this sim is to attract more players beyond the hardcore sim fans, it really needs to have more options to be user friendly and better SP campaign. If you expect new players to browse through forums to find options that should be available from day one, I don't see how this sim will survive. We all know it barely survives with only the current player base. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sevsterino said:

We have to remember that MP players make up only 5% of the player base.

Yes most people are SP. but the only purpose to including icon modification officially would be so it could be a setting online among players. The trouble  is that hardly any players online use icons to begin with. Players all gravitate to the populated servers which are always “Expert”. That’s just how MP is. 

1 hour ago, sevsterino said:

 

If this sim is to attract more players beyond the hardcore sim fans, 

Hardcore sim fans are the only player base for sims like this. The players who want icons and such are over on War Thunder. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Hardcore sim fans are the only player base for sims like this. The players who want icons and such are over on War Thunder. 

 

Good points. Wouldn't be worth trying to get some of those players over to il2?    I must say right now Il2 is a bit 'intimidating', but i am sure a good SP campaign and some more options to adjust what is 'comfortable' and what is not for new players in SP would be welcome.

 

I can speak for myself, I used to play what at that time was considered realistic simulations (1942 PAW from 1994 for example) which is now laughable in terms of 'realism'. After a long break, players like myself have a hard time getting back without tweaking the options. What Solmyr is asking is exactly what I would feel comfortable with in SP, a sweet medium  between arcadey dash board and arrows and target labels and 'hardcore' simulation option of spotting enemy plane of a size of 1 pixel. Of course I will try the mods provided by Sniperton in this thread (thank you!!!), but I think this should be available in options from the start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sevsterino said:

 

Good points. Wouldn't be worth trying to get some of those players over to il2?   

Certainly. I’m sure many people go that route. But if they move to IL-2 they’re looking for something different and more challenging. Not a repeat of the same. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Most players would probably disagree. I wouldn’t want the graphics of the game stunted in order to have icon choices. The majority of players, judging by multiplayer, have them switched off. 

Mods can provide this feature so there’s no need for the game to add it. Custom icons could only work in single player with mods on because there aren’t enough players online to give everyone their choice of settings. And again, hardly anyone plays with them online. 

 

Sorry but you are pretty off the road to me..

 

1) It wouldn't be to "have icon choice" but have "icons masked when there is absolutely no sense to see them". Icons configuration options to let the player decide if he/she wants to have distance lenght and aircraft type can't be an FPS killer.

2) Did you read the thread ? Mods can't fix all. We thank modders for what they achieved, but they can't replace game developpers.

3) As said above and stated by devs, MP player base is by far in minority. And even MP speaking, you talk about something like 1/4 of MP player base. It's not completely negligeable IMO. And above all, depending on your hardware rig, ergonomy, sight (with glasses), etc, some of us can't hope fighting without icons on even nearly equal terms with others. Once again, on my end, I can't hope spotting > differentiate at more than a few hundreds meters, or 1 or 2 kms at best. (Then divide by 2 or 3 for differentiating..) 😥

 

So, is that game purpose, about "competitive" MP, to spend easily 3000 euros or even more for computer + screen, in order to fight in about equal terms ?  My actual rig is pretty decent, but I can't spend 600-800 more euros now to change my GC, and add a 400-600 euros screen also..

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Hardcore sim fans are the only player base for sims like this. The players who want icons and such are over on War Thunder.

 

4) That is pretty of a condescending statement IMHO. By the way if Il-2 is far above War Thunder realistically speaking (what I think of course), it's not mainly due to game ergonomy like icons nor thanks to possibly better graphics, but because of better physics.

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

but the only purpose to including icon modification officially would be so it could be a setting online among players.

 

5) No.

Edited by Solmyr
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/14/2019 at 3:23 PM, AeroAce said:

I have been asking for this

Same here ... :)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Solmyr said:

 

3) As said above and stated by devs, MP player base is by far in minority. And even MP speaking, you talk about something like 1/4 of MP player base. It's not completely negligeable IMO. And above all, depending on your hardware rig, ergonomy, sight (with glasses), etc, some of us can't hope fighting without icons on even nearly equal terms with others. Once again, on my end, I can't hope spotting > differentiate at more than a few hundreds meters, or 1 or 2 kms at best. (Then divide by 2 or 3 for differentiating..) 😥

 

Then those people - if they want to - need to play on servers that have icons enabled, they are around after all.

Giving custom icons to VR users or users with outdated computers so they can "stay on par" with higher end systems or non-VR users on servers set to "Expert" (or a custom variant close to that like places like WoL are running with the horrible map GPS turned on) is the shortest way to mire the entire online experience in even more endless flame wars than it already is every now and then. "Waaa waaa, he was cheating with X settings when he shot me down" and so on and so forth.

 

Note I am not saying 'no' to custom icons on a per player basis, I can see a definite use for that and the inclusion would be a good quality of life improvement even for more experienced players playing around with tactics, familiarisation or testing or whatnot. But it has absolutely 100% no place online outside of what the server host decides to set it to*. 

 

 

 

*yes obviously excluding a theoretical world where a server host would set it to an as of yet non-existent "player custom" mode.

Edited by wellenbrecher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The players who want icons and such are over on War Thunder. 

No Sir. Those who want icons are the newbies or veterans of Il-2 who have myopic eyes, who can't have a monitor bigger than 24 or so inches, who don't want to sit at a one feet distance from their display, or who fly in VR.

Now they only have the option to fly on an "expert" server (intimidated by not seeing sh.t), or to fly on one of the few "normal" servers, where they can't switch off the annoying speedbar without switching off the vital icons, and where those vital icons are irrealistically visible even when they should be blocked by the airframe.

What we need is not less realism, but a "hard" difficulty level, where you can have icons blocked by the airframe and disappearing in close distances, while the arcadish options are all switched off like in "expert".

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Hardcore sim fans are the only player base for sims like this. The players who want icons and such are over on War Thunder. 

Says who?

Everyone has different tastes and preferences.

 

Lots of people I know who have been flying online sims since the days of Air Warrior or Warbirds wouldn't touch WT with a ten foot pole - but they still would like to have some sort of icons.

 

Besides: Unlike AW, WB or AH, we're not talking about one "main arena" with one set of rules/settings that everyone has to accept. We're talking about a decentralized game where you can choose the server with the settings that suit you best - or run your own server and decide what settings you want. So all people like the OP or myself are asking for are more options - NOT wanting to force icons on players who don't want/need them.

 

Besides, besides: In a game where I can zoom in on objects as if I had bionic eyes, I never quite understood the "realism"-argument. Short-range, minimum-info icons done right are no more unrealistic than flying around with a zoom-lens built into your virtual eyeballs.

 

S.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

We're talking about a decentralized game where you can choose the server with the settings that suit you best - or run your own server and decide what settings you want.

There aren’t enough players online to make that work. Currently there is really no “choice of server”. There are only one or two populated servers. And those run without icons.

1 hour ago, sniperton said:

No Sir. Those who want icons are the newbies or veterans of Il-2 who have myopic eyes, who can't have a monitor bigger than 24 or so inches, who don't want to sit at a one feet distance from their display, or who fly in VR.

Now they only have the option to fly on an "expert" server (intimidated by not seeing sh.t), or to fly on one of the few "normal" servers, where they can't switch off the annoying speedbar without switching off the vital icons, and where those vital icons are irrealistically visible even when they should be blocked by the airframe.

What we need is not less realism, but a "hard" difficulty level, where you can have icons blocked by the airframe and disappearing in close distances, while the arcadish options are all switched off like in "expert".

I mention War Thunder not to be condescending. I am only stating what I see online because I of course don’t know what everyone’s setting are. It would be possible to run easy game-like arcade servers in IL-2. This game has those options, for icons, external views, mouse control etc. If new players who maybe preferred that to the “full real” style were in this game then you’d see that type of server. But you don’t. The only setting you see anyone play online is Expert. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I mention War Thunder not to be condescending.

 

You *kinda* sounded that way though... ;)

 

Have you ever considered that statements like "this place is for the *real* sim-pilots, everyone else is playing  Warthunder" is exactly why there aren't enough people in this game to have servers busting at the seams with players? If you want to attract new people to your product/hobby, it's probably not a good idea to deny potential customers certain options/features they've come to expect from a sim.

 

I'll repeat myself by saying that nobody is talking about taking options away from existing players. It's quite the contrary, actually, since we're arguing for more options and further customization.

 

Besides: Icons are in the game already anyway .... it's just that, in their current state, they are far from perfect and could use some tweaking and customizing options to become useful.

 

S.

Edited by 1Sascha
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like the topics going a little sideways on pros vs joes. I personally have a high end computer but play the game in VR and I love it. Games like this are perfect for VR because they are seated, cockpit etc. The issue is not the game but the low res VR headsets at this times. With no ability to discern screen door affect and a plane pixel speck past 600m in VR  it's a big problem if you want to play on expert servers. If in the future we have headsets that can out perform 1440p and 4K sharpness I'll never use them again but for now I don't see an option since I cant roll over at 3K spot a target on the hard deck zoom down take it out.

My Vr in game specs

High

4 AA

Sharp on

Distance 100k

HDR on

Dynamic REZ max

Average FPS 45

Motion sickness 0%

Joy factor Il2 plays in VR 1000%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to fly on Warbirds, around 2000-ish. While the 'main arena' there, was with icons, there were others without icons.

 

Even without icons, plane visibility (if memory serves) was much better then than it is in IL-2 BoX. I believe they must have resorted to, let's say, rendering tricks to achieve that. At the time I wasn't aware that that was the case, I only conclude it now, when comparing it.

 

Since displays usually had a lower resolution, people didn't object to such subtle visual aids at all. The view back then would have been, that people recognized that the imperfect displays are worse than viewing IRL, therefore some rendering help to offset this disadvantage was called for.

 

Whereas today, regarding naturalism, the general view seems to be, that the displays are so good that a plane should be rendered no larger or more contrasty than it would appear IRL.

 

Personally, I would prefer it if there were options (let's say, 'servers' or 'maps'), where there'd be, some subtle visual reinforcement of planes, to make them easier to spot. Obviously this kind of thing couldn't be up to the player to choose for the 'expert' servers, for the sake of fairness.

 

I currently mostly fly 'normal', with icons, because I constantly loose track of planes on expert servers, but I'd prefer a more subtle solution over icons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

Have you ever considered that statements like "this place is for the *real* sim-pilots, everyone else is playing  Warthunder" is exactly why there aren't enough people in this game to have servers busting at the seams with players? If you want to attract new people to your product/hobby, it's probably not a good idea to deny potential customers certain options/features they've come to expect from a sim.

 

I'll repeat myself by saying that nobody is talking about taking options away from existing players. It's quite the contrary, actually, since we're arguing for more options and further customization.

 

Besides: Icons are in the game already anyway .... it's just that, in their current state, they are far from perfect and could use some tweaking and customizing options to become useful.

That’s just the reality of what flight sims have become. Divided between low and higher fidelity. And the higher fidelity sim like this one is too expensive to make and also try to be everything to everyone. War Thunder has 1,000 different planes and vehicles and 80 maps. It’s appeal is quantity over quality. So a player who isn’t looking for accuracy in flight models etc is going to go that direction and not towards a game with only 30 aircraft despite that those are done with a much higher level of authenticity. People who want authenticity tend to not also use game aids like icons. I’m sure the devs are reluctant to spend the time and money adding features that probably won’t end up being used. 

1 hour ago, stupor-mundi said:

Since displays usually had a lower resolution, people didn't object to such subtle visual aids at all. The view back then would have been, that people recognized that the imperfect displays are worse than viewing IRL, therefore some rendering help to offset this disadvantage was called for.

 

Whereas today, regarding naturalism, the general view seems to be, that the displays are so good that a plane should be rendered no larger or more contrasty than it would appear IRL.

Certainly true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

I used to fly on Warbirds, around 2000-ish. While the 'main arena' there, was with icons, there were others without icons. 

Interesting. What was your handle? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so from a server side perspective, how much configuration is available for the icons? Can the pop-in distance be set? Friendly only, or different pop in ranges for friend and foe? 

 

Have some mad ideas for an unrealistic server }:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×