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KBKriechbaum

Effects of Inertia on pilots head

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Good day dear development team and virtual pilots, 

 

 

This post is about how the physiology of pilots limits performance of the system "combat aircraft" and why it should be part of Il2 Sturmovik.

 

My observation:

 

The head of the pilot (= the camera) is not affected by aircraft movent nor by the boundaries of a pilots body.

 

My suggestion:

 

1. Implement tighter boundaries to camera position in the cockpit.

2. Implement forced (slight) camera movement within the cockpit depending on aircraft movement.

 

Why do i suggest this?

 

When reading about real stories of real pilots, you often come across statements like "I exclusively attacked aircraft in level flight" or "never get involved in turn fights", or that pilots would disengage when their foe was aware of their approach. 

 

Also real gun cam footage often displays situations that would result in a very easy kill in il2. 

 

The point is, it seems like it was way harder to score hits when a high amount of lead was necessary or a lot of crazy turns were involved compared how to it is in the game.

So we have a magnificent flight model in il2, the planes are modelled with incredible detail and the implemented physics create an amazing variety of outcomes in combat.

 

In short: The dog fights look very real from the standpoint of physics, but kind of super-man like from the standpoint of the pilots abilities. I suspect that it has a lot to do with the ability of the virtual pilots to "stay on target" no matter how aggresive they fly. At the moment, everybody can fly at the very limits of the plane, because there are almost no limits to the virtual human body inside it (exept for red- and black out).

 

First, a real pilot has a neck and a body that will limit his ability to move around in the cockpit, especially his ability to turn around and look over his shoulder. So maybe some boundaries in that area could create a more realistic feel, like not being able to fully look back or to raise your head all the way up to look over your hood.

 

And second, just the forced movement of the head of the pilot must have severely hampered his ability to actually use his sights effectively. Inverted flight should move your "camera" a bit towards the canope, rolling left should move the camera to the right, etc.

 

I think of the famous videos of Svetlana Kapanina during her Sochi performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQONtYjDlMw

 

Possible outcome after implementation:

 

1. The virtual combat experience would resemble a more real picture, where pilots would have a more realistically limited situational awareness.

 

2. Pilots would have to also take into consideration the effects of their maneuvers on the pilot, not just the aircraft. It would create more "realistic gun solutions" (gun solutions that are executable in the real world by real pilots) which could make the overall picture look more real.

 

I imagine the forced camera movement like force feedback on a joystick. A bit of movement, but always returning to zero. Kind of like a spring. And with the help of variables, it could be more or less severe and more or less smooth etc. 

 

(Not sure if something like this is already existing in another flight sim. I would compare it very  (!) losely to the typical shaking sniper sights in shooters that are more on the realism side.)

 

What do you think about it?

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I think this would be a very good thing. I am just not very sure it is possible to get right without a lot of back and forth between too little and too much. 

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2 hours ago, KBKriechbaum said:

What do you think about it?

It is a very difficult thing to do and very subjective. You cannot directly transfer actual head movement to a camera position, as in real life, your brain will filter out shifts and stutters and produce a more steady "view". The effect then between actual and percieved movement is significant and only grounds for argument in such a competitive environment as a combat sim. It costs money to develop, but the ones who notice it most are probably the ones that will raise hell in places like this over it.

 

Also, you should be weary or comparing actual combat film footage with what you have in the game. In the game, player are usually FAR better at what they are doing. Most combat flm show pilots shot dead that never saw it coming.

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In a PC sim, Vision is the only feedback we get. In real life all the head movement doesn’t affect your perception of reality as much since you have other sensory feedback and also your real vision doesn’t shake like a GoPro camera. So excessive head movement like for example DCS has just interferes with your control of the plane in a very odd way. It’s best switched off

IL-2 does model head movement but it’s slight. 

Forced head movement in VR can make players sick. 

IL-2 does model stick forces. 

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14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So excessive head movement like for example DCS has just interferes with your control of the plane in a very odd way. It’s best switched off

Well, nobody suggests "excessive" has movement. But pulling out of a 700km/h dive in a rather sharp manner like for instance in a yak should limit your ability to lean forward towards the sights. 

 

Of course turning such things off is better from a performance standpoint. It is like turning off the motion blur in some games or turning off the suns effect of blinding you etc. Turning off force feedback on the joystick, because shaking makes aming harder. But that's a gamer vs Sim-enthusiast discussion. 

 

What I suggest is that the game should consider the human body as a not too stable platform in some of the extreme situations in dog fights. 

 

When discussing this human factor with a friend, we came across the idea of "endurance" or stamina. 

So that a pilot would have say 100% of endurance/stamina, whereas 100% would limit the amount of forced head movement to the minimum, which we have in the game now, and maximize the boundaries of its voluntary movement (leaning forward etc) also how it is now. 

These 100% of "stamina" would decrease over the duration of higher g, heavy maneuvering etc. and replenish themselves in calm flight. 

 

In short : the longer you stay in the dogfight, the more your pilot will be affected by the effects suggested in the first post as he is less capable of countering them over the duration of a fight. 

This would also model the fact that pilots were normal people, not supermen. 

 

I compare this to shooters, where your soldier can run 20km/h forever vs. The ones that model exhaustion, thus forcing people to use their "maximum running speed" more wisely.

 

It would be another interesting constraint (like engine management etc) 

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4 hours ago, KBKriechbaum said:

In short : the longer you stay in the dogfight, the more your pilot will be affected by the effects suggested in the first post as he is less capable of countering them over the duration of a fight. 

I don't see much purpose in that, other than an artificial way to introduce another difficulty in playing the game.

 

In real aircraft when maneuvering around, you're stuck more and more into the seat and generally, I'd say you move less then initially. Also when you are at the controls yourself, you are instinctively prepared for the occuring accellerations and you work against them. You should move more if you unhooked your shoulder straps, but also that would be little effect as most accellerations will be in the direction of just you being pushed more into the seat. Fatigue will be more clearly shown in your enthusiasm in turning around checking your six. Depending on your belts and your clothes, this can be some work.

 

For the purpose of the dogfight I don't see it of much use in a way other than we have it now. For civilian flight sims, you can slightly overdo this (some publishers do and I am rather find of it), as it gives you another cue about how the aicraft feels in flight.

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All of this could be defeated by changing the curve on TrackIR (or other headtracker of choice), which I would be doing straight away if this were introduced. And I can’t be bothered messing around with my TIR profile because it’s set the way I like it already.

 

Its an interesting idea for sure and I understand where you’re coming from, but in practice in the game environment it likely won’t work, and will probably just annoy people. 

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Just came across this video. Pretty relevant. This sort of stress is rather difficult to replicate in a PC game though. 

 

 

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:07 PM, KBKriechbaum said:

 

1. The virtual combat experience would resemble a more real picture, where pilots would have a more realistically limited situational awareness.

 

2. Pilots would have to also take into consideration the effects of their maneuvers on the pilot, not just the aircraft. It would create more "realistic gun solutions" (gun solutions that are executable in the real world by real pilots) which could make the overall picture look more real.

 

 

I've made a similar request here....

 

 

Currently, the pilot in IL-2 can keep looking down the gun-sight - no matter how violent the manoeuvre, no matter what G-forces he's experiencing.

 

 

It's totally un-realistic - real people have necks & their bodies are squishy.

 

I don't have Flying Circus but I suspect the pilot (wearing only a lap-belt to keep him from falling out) will still be able to fly inverted and maintain perfect sighting. And so the dogfights will inevitably be unrealistic because there's no appreciable difference to the player between aiming while flying straight & level, and aiming while hanging upside down, or during a rolling scissors, or pulling 5 G's etc.

Here's some examples of what is possible. Compare these effects to what we have now in IL-2 .

 

C5ikXwO.gif

 

P8WUbC2.gif

 

bsDUr2s.gif

 

Here's the full vid (I think it's a plug-in for FSX)

 

 

 

But there is hope....look at the fantastic, fluid motion you get with the tanks!

 

oZRkoLc.gif

 

So why not the aircraft?

 

 

Edited by Valis

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On 1/14/2019 at 3:16 AM, SharpeXB said:

Just came across this video. Pretty relevant. This sort of stress is rather difficult to replicate in a PC game though.

 

Notice the pain of pulling Gs in the video... It's impossible to replicate in a PC game and that's a pro not a con. It sucks and from in the sim experience the more I maneuver the less likely is survival. Even if I win a dog-fighting engagement I'm very vulnerable for while because it takes time to accelerate and to regenerate awareness.

 

Many like d-fights but really... they should be avoided whenever possible.

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I agree is not realistic, I fly a real warbird and 2 days ago while doing loops, rolls, immelmans, spins and splits S.

Was thinking exactly this, would be nice if this was modeled and  make it more realistic.

Technology is there but you will hear complaints to no end, like right now some people who fly VR complain that they cannot check six and are asking for some sort of implementation.

I fly in VR , and Checking six in VR is very realistic, this is exactly how it is in real life, even a bit easier since you are not strapped to your seat.

Only hardcore simulator fans will enjoy this, but the gamers wont,and they will whine.

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In my Opinion it's not really a good idea to shake the camera around if someone plays in VR. And if it's only implemented for 2D Players they will complain that VR Players have too much of an advantage.

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