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Why do people rarely fly high in multiplayer?

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Been playing for a bit now and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been in or seen a dogfight above 10k feet. Why are occurences like this rare? Also, would more action up high be beneficial to the game? If so, what are some possible ways the devs would go about incentivising higher altitudes? Please and thanks.

Edited by pegg00

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Well that is close to or exceeding the service ceiling of the fighters.

 

Bf-109 service ceiling: 11600 m

Yak1 service ceiling: 10600 m

P-39 service ceiling: 9300 m

 

Not to mention the bombers and attack aircraft ceilings, which give a reason for fighters to even be up there anyways.

Il-2 1942 service ceiling: 6000 m

He 111 H-6: Service ceiling: 6300 m

 

That said though I've been in plenty of fights around 6k. And a few higher up. You yourself have to be up there though.

 

Edited by TheKillerSloth

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9 minutes ago, pegg00 said:

Been playing for a bit now and I cant count on one hand the number of time I’ve been in or seen a dogfight above 10k feet. Why are occurences like this rare? Also, would more action up high be beneficial to the game? If so, what are some possible ways the devs would go about incentivising higher altitudes? Please and thanks.

 

Might see this more once BoBP is closer to final release. I can imagine scenarios where you have to intercept a high flying recon, encouraging pilots to try and get up there.
 

I've had engagements slightly lower than this on KOTA server

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1 minute ago, =11=Herne said:

 

Might see this more once BoBP is closer to final release. I can imagine scenarios where you have to intercept a high flying recon, encouraging pilots to try and get up there.
 

I've had engagements slightly lower than this on KOTA server

Yeah on knights I have found most of the fights I've been at were around 6-7k though I haven't been on it much so I don't know it that well.

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OP was talking feet, not meters.

9 minutes ago, TheKillerSloth said:

Well that is close to or exceeding the service ceiling of the fighters.

 

Bf-109 service ceiling: 11600 m

Yak1 service ceiling: 10600 m

P-39 service ceiling: 9300 m

 

Not to mention the bombers and attack aircraft ceilings, which give a reason for fighters to even be up there anyways.

Il-2 1942 service ceiling: 6000 m

He 111 H-6: Service ceiling: 6300 m

 

That said though I've been in plenty of fights around 6k. And a few higher up. You yourself have to be up there though.

 

 

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1.ground objectives are/should be main target and since more bomber pilots dive bomb than level bomb fight is on lower alt.

2.With released titles we have russian planes that have better performance on low alt so why go high where germans will dominate in performance by far, everybody goes where disadvantege gap is smaller.

 

I guess with BoBp things could change but somehow i doubt.

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When the P47 was released there were finally some fights up high online I noticed. Still its a chore to get the heavy bird up there, the performance gap of the 109 to the 47 is negligible up there, and most people want fast action in this day and age. 

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4 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

When the P47 was released there were finally some fights up high online I noticed. Still its a chore to get the heavy bird up there, the performance gap of the 109 to the 47 is negligible up there, and most people want fast action in this day and age. 

 

for allied high alt ops I prefer the spit ix with the merlin 70 at this time. She seems to be quite comfortable at 35k feet, and doesn't take an age and burn all her fuel to get up there. Looking forward to seeing what the P51 can do.

41 minutes ago, TheKillerSloth said:

Yeah on knights I have found most of the fights I've been at were around 6-7k though I haven't been on it much so I don't know it that well.

 

It has rotating missions, one of which is a fantasy kuban 45 or 44 map, where all the BoBP birds are welcome, including the 109 k4

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39 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

1.ground objectives are/should be main target and since more bomber pilots dive bomb than level bomb fight is on lower alt.

 

Devs could help level bombing by having the ground targets render from further away. Even a limited solution, like further rendering distance only in bombsight, would help.

Edited by LLv34_Temuri
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33 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

1.ground objectives are/should be main target and since more bomber pilots dive bomb than level bomb fight is on lower alt

 

Unfortunately the majority of the MP mission designs require too high a percentage of target destruction requiring surgical low level strikes to obliterate every truck, cart and crate of vodka hidden in the trees at the target location before the objective is complete. 

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1 hour ago, Field-Ops said:

When the P47 was released there were finally some fights up high online I noticed. Still its a chore to get the heavy bird up there, the performance gap of the 109 to the 47 is negligible up there, and most people want fast action in this day and age. 


The P-47 should be significantly faster than the G14, I'm assuming K4s aren't regulated. I honestly can't be bothered flying the P-47 at high altitude with the 5 minute limit. A dogfight at high altitude can take up to 10 minutes so it really just makes more sense to drop 100% flaps and fight on the deck. There also aren't any B-17's so there is no real purpose being at high altitudes. 

Edited by DSR_T-888
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1 hour ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

Devs could help level bombing by having the ground targets render from further away. Even a limited solution, like further rendering distance only in bombsight, would help.

I suggested that in feedback thread while ago, it will be problem when PTO comes on schedule.

Right now when searching for naval objectives (ships) you spot them when you are almost above them, they just pop up bellow you.

Now it helps that mission makers put ships close to the shore so we have something to navigate from but on wast open sea it will be hell to find it without gps.

1 hour ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Unfortunately the majority of the MP mission designs require too high a percentage of target destruction requiring surgical low level strikes to obliterate every truck, cart and crate of vodka hidden in the trees at the target location before the objective is complete. 

Guys that run Finnish dynamic war server did it in a bit lower percentage so it is good solution.....

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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18 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:


The P-47 should be significantly faster than the G14, I'm assuming K4s aren't regulated. I honestly can't be bothered flying the P-47 at high altitude with the 5 minute limit. A dogfight at high altitude can take up to 10 minutes so it really just makes more sense to drop 100% flaps and fight on the deck. There also aren't any B-17's so there is no real purpose being at high altitudes. 

 

What G14 lol only 109 youll see is K4 baby, servers that have P-47s have unlimited K4s with all mods on, so its 1.98K4s bananza. And the way ground targets are usealy set, even one like AF, factory and so on ... are better to be bombed from low alt, so even if we get B-17, bomber guys would just use them at 1000m top, and bomb like any bombers now online. Even now axis bomber guys who would benefit from attacking targets from high, have to bomb from low if they wont to finish objectives before other side.

I offten fly high online and i do nothing to help my team to win map by flying high, maybe by acidant i save some high flying bomber or shoot down some high flying bomber from enemy side, but usealy is waist of airplane and slot for my team by flying high online.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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36 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

What G14 lol only 109 youll see is K4 baby, servers that have P-47s have unlimited K4s with all mods on, so its 1.98K4s bananza. 

Yup, unlimited numbers of k4 with 1.98ata and usually higher numbers of pilots on axis side, mostly squadrons making it 4xK4 on 1-2 Spit 18lbs boost is not good for allied side and feels like a cheating, not to mention historical accuracy questioning operational usage of C3 fuel and 1.98ata.

My buddy didn't want to fly last night on those servers!

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2 hours ago, DSR_T-888 said:

The P-47 should be significantly faster than the G14, I'm assuming K4s aren't regulated. I honestly can't be bothered flying the P-47 at high altitude with the 5 minute limit. A dogfight at high altitude can take up to 10 minutes so it really just makes more sense to drop 100% flaps and fight on the deck. There also aren't any B-17's so there is no real purpose being at high altitudes. 

 

Even worse is the high closure speed which can be so high you barely have time to react. It can take as little as 30s to have the target disappears because of the 10km visibility sphere. That's assuming a similar altitude; add some difference in height and it becomes much worse. When I fly the P-47D at 7000m (23K ft - as I should) I can track nothing below me. Sometimes I will spot a contact there but that's it - once I managed to position myself and initiate the dive it's... gone.

 

3 hours ago, Field-Ops said:

When the P47 was released there were finally some fights up high online I noticed. Still its a chore to get the heavy bird up there, the performance gap of the 109 to the 47 is negligible up there, and most people want fast action in this day and age. 

 

Yup but I'd disagree about the "low" climbing rate of the Thunderbolt. You can climb 3500ft/m from the deck; or go to 23K ft at 2500-3000ft/m in the "semi-WEP" timer friendly mode; you will still have +10m of ADI left and full 5m of emergency left, then. Of course it shouldn't be done that way - the full 15m of water injection should be available straight and without special settings.

Edited by Ehret
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K4 isnt a problem, even with 1.98 ATA. Capable Spit mk 9 pilot will never get hit. Hell even capable Jug pilot can raise hell against K4.

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26 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

K4 isnt a problem, even with 1.98 ATA. Capable Spit mk 9 pilot will never get hit. Hell even capable Jug pilot can raise hell against K4.

looking at stats says differant story, even when check your ones i see your geting shoot down by 109k4s all time in p-47, or maybe red side dont have any capable p-47 or Spitfire 9 players, and all capable players are in axis side in 109k4s and this has nothing to do with magic performance of k4s when they are unlimited to be used but just sub par allied players. 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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17 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

looking at stats says differant story, even when check your ones i see your geting shoot down by 109k4s all time in p-47, or maybe red side dont have any capable p-47 or Spitfire 9 players, and all capable players are in axis side in 109k4s and this has nothing to do with magic performance of k4s when they are unlimited to be used but just sub par allied players. 

1v1 Jug loses to K4 everytime. But the very second you add a teamwork into this, K4 are less threatening than 190s.

Edited by CSAF-D3adCZE
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1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

K4 isnt a problem, even with 1.98 ATA. Capable Spit mk 9 pilot will never get hit. Hell even capable Jug pilot can raise hell against K4.

I agree, but not 1 vs. 2 or more k4 which usually is the case.

With k4 speed average pilot can easily dictate fight and run away from skilled spit pilot.

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1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

1v1 Jug loses to K4 everytime. But the very second you add a teamwork into this, K4 are less threatening than 190s.

 

No every-time - if you fly conservatively and stick to the 7000m altitude you can keep the K4s at bay but... it's extremely tedious. The worse is it will be the K4 pilot who will get help from teamwork first. If you commit but won't get a gun solution at once then you will get swarmed by K4s. The generous boost timer in the K4 ensures others will come quickly and then it's just getting deeper and deeper into an inescapable energy trap. So... only survivable tactics in the P-47D are: don't waste any chance for a gun solution or do a single pass and then run away.

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7 hours ago, pegg00 said:

Been playing for a bit now and I cant count on one hand the number of time I’ve been in or seen a dogfight above 10k feet. Why are occurences like this rare? Also, would more action up high be beneficial to the game? If so, what are some possible ways the devs would go about incentivising higher altitudes? Please and thanks.

Go to Berloga to see this: spawn and dive.

Probably most people have some unresolved anger issues and simply need to kill someone ASAP.

Personally, its simple time management and flying red which means avoiding being outclimbed.

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1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

No every-time - if you fly conservatively and stick to the 7000m altitude you can keep the K4s at bay but... it's extremely tedious. The worse is it will be the K4 pilot who will get help from teamwork first. If you commit but won't get a gun solution at once then you will get swarmed by K4s. The generous boost timer in the K4 ensures others will come quickly and then it's just getting deeper and deeper into an inescapable energy trap. So... only survivable tactics in the P-47D are: don't waste any chance for a gun solution or do a single pass and then run away.

 

I think it's undeniable that the K4 offers a tremendous advantage to its pilot. Yes, a more competent pilot in a Spit IX or a Jug can take a K4, and of course in team fights you can still take down K4s, but the fact is the K4 is the best fighter out there right now.

 

I don't quite get why some people seem to jump on any assertions that the K4 is a better aircraft and that consequently things are "unbalanced". The only thing wrong with that claim is that balance is not in fact a goal in any simulation. This is why BoM is still a valid and good sim, despite the LW clearly having the upper hand. In this case, yes, the K4 is the best fighter out there, and this will remain the case even after the P-38 and P-51s have been released (not sure about the Dora, mind you). The only competition it will have will be the Tempest at low level (vroom!), and the Spit XIV if and when it is added as a collector's plane (which, based on previous experiences, is practically a certainty).

 

And yes, the K4 definitely has the edge right now, including over the Spit IX. Even if take it as a given that a skilled Spit IX pilot can avoid any incoming boom and zooms (which is very debatable), this still implies that the initiative is surrendered to the K4, which owing to its superior energy fighting capabilities can dictate the fight. Eventually that Spit IX pilot is going to be looking the wrong way. :)

 

And this isn't a bad thing, mind you. The only bad thing, at least, is that KOTA's fantasy scenario is in fact purely fantasy, and has unlimited everything. Historically speaking, the K4's superior performance was mostly meaningless, since it was totally outnumbered and was facing severe logistical constraints (fuel, for example, not to mention experienced pilots). Not sure how THAT can be simulated in a well-made MP mission... though I do think there should be some sort of incentive to have LW players take out the G14s and A8s over always using the Kurfursts and Doras.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Slegawsky said:

Go to Berloga to see this: spawn and dive.

Probably most people have some unresolved anger issues and simply need to kill someone ASAP.

Personally, its simple time management and flying red which means avoiding being outclimbed.

 

To be fair, Berloga is the airquake server. The whole point of the server is to get in a quick fight. :)

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

I don't quite get why some people seem to jump on any assertions that the K4 is a better aircraft and that consequently things are "unbalanced". The only thing wrong with that claim is that balance is not in fact a goal in any simulation. This is why BoM is still a valid and good sim, despite the LW clearly having the upper hand. In this case, yes, the K4 is the best fighter out there, and this will remain the case even after the P-38 and P-51s have been released (not sure about the Dora, mind you). The only competition it will have will be the Tempest at low level (vroom!), and the Spit XIV if and when it is added as a collector's plane (which, based on previous experiences, is practically a certainty).

 

The sim is a video game too and as such... you don't want the situation where just few will fly the other side. How do you like racing to score a kill with your own teammates? Is that a good thing to you?

I can avoid being intercepted by the K4 in the P-47D as long I stick to conservative tactics. If I stay at +7000m and don't commit I'm safe. There is a problem thought - flying like that becomes boring, quickly. The sim isn't a job nor a duty. Lets reverse that and ask yourself the question - if the full realism is the goal then how would you like flying for the LW in such 100% historic conditions? I mean the real Bodenplatte where your own flak would shot at you because the whole operation was such secret.

 

Not much, probably.

Edited by Ehret

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its a primate tacit subcouncious agreement:

 

if i fly high you fly higher and then i fly even higher in a vicious circle that would get the game boring as hell

 

in the subcouncious everybodys nice just education screw us, karma is selfpunishment

Edited by raaaid

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Simple answer. Time, distance to the action and it's a game not real life. We can't force users to fly at realistic altitudes like the real military. However, from what I understand the Eastern Front saw a lot more low and medium altitude fighting than the Western Front.  It also was a much larger front with all kind of things going on every day. 

 

Jason

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 If people are going to belittle the Mustang before it's even released, atleast try to not make your Spit XIV agenda so obvious. 😂

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28 minutes ago, Warpig said:

 If people are going to belittle the Mustang before it's even released, atleast try to not make your Spit XIV agenda so obvious. 😂

 

Only one person in this thread mentioned it before you arrived?

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9 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Only one person in this thread mentioned it before you arrived?

Just checked my spreadsheet. You are correct. 😉

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11 hours ago, TheKillerSloth said:

Well that is close to or exceeding the service ceiling of the fighters.

 

Bf-109 service ceiling: 11600 m

Yak1 service ceiling: 10600 m

P-39 service ceiling: 9300 m

 

Not to mention the bombers and attack aircraft ceilings, which give a reason for fighters to even be up there anyways.

Il-2 1942 service ceiling: 6000 m

He 111 H-6: Service ceiling: 6300 m

 

That said though I've been in plenty of fights around 6k. And a few higher up. You yourself have to be up there though.

 

Salutations,

 

Until and IF we get access to high level bomber craft (Player and or AI controlled)... expect things to remain as they currently are. 😐

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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

Simple answer. Time, distance to the action and it's a game not real life. We can't force users to fly at realistic altitudes like the real military. However, from what I understand the Eastern Front saw a lot more low and medium altitude fighting than the Western Front.  It also was a much larger front with all kind of things going on every day. 

 

Jason

 

True. In real life the incentive to fly at high altitudes was interception of bomber streams on the western front. The eastern front had no strategic bombing campaign going on, hence no high altitude business except intercepting the odd reccon plane. Same situation on the western front before the start of strategic bombing. Nearly all business done at low to medium altitudes in 1941-1943. Without strategic bombers flying at 24.000 feet there is no need for high altitude warfare.

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3 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

The sim is a video game too and as such... you don't want the situation where just few will fly the other side. How do you like racing to score a kill with your own teammates? Is that a good thing to you?

I can avoid being intercepted by the K4 in the P-47D as long I stick to conservative tactics. If I stay at +7000m and don't commit I'm safe. There is a problem thought - flying like that becomes boring, quickly. The sim isn't a job nor a duty. Lets reverse that and ask yourself the question - if the full realism is the goal then how would you like flying for the LW in such 100% historic conditions? I mean the real Bodenplatte where your own flak would shot at you because the whole operation was such secret.

 

Not much, probably.

 

Concerning your P-47D scenario, I think that basically explains my point: in order to stay safe you have to surrender the initiative to the K4, which illustrates the K4's superiority rather well. And yes, it is very boring. Of course, that might be rectified by making scenarios where the Thunderbolt was more in its element, such as escorting AI bombers at high altitudes. 

 

That, I'm not advocating for 100% realistic mission scenarios, of course that'd be silly. LW players wouldn't have fun at all then. However, it is not the place of the sim to craft a balance of power. If one side has better aircraft, then so be it, that's how it was and we shouldn't compromise the simulation to rectify that.

 

That IS the job of the mission designers, however. They're the ones who should work to craft a balanced, fun experience for both sides  :). This can be achieved in many ways, but for example they shouldn't try to create a realistic late war scenario where allies must outnumber the LW 5 to 1 :). Conversely, they can try to ensure that the better hot rods are more limited, and come up with ways to incentivize flying the lesser hardware (you see this already on existing servers).
 

1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

Simple answer. Time, distance to the action and it's a game not real life. We can't force users to fly at realistic altitudes like the real military. However, from what I understand the Eastern Front saw a lot more low and medium altitude fighting than the Western Front.  It also was a much larger front with all kind of things going on every day. 

 

Jason

 

Aye, it was... main difference is for the most part the eastern front was an active tactical theater. Aircraft stayed low because they were actively supporting fighting on the ground. Bombers/Attack planes flew lower to hit tactical targets, which in turn brought fighters lower.

 

Conversely, for the longest time the western front was a strategic theater: It was either about strategic bombers flying at high altitude needing to be escorted and shot down, or it was about fighter sweeps that tried to shoot down the other side's fighters, at which point whoever flew the highest had the advantage. These combined to make a very different theater from the eastern front, one where high altitude performance was king, and that shows in the different design priorities between western and eastern aircraft.

 

Of course, that changed in June '44, but by then allied air superiority was pretty decisive... and even so the strategic campaign was still a very high priority. 

 

So, to the question at hand: since right now all we have are tactical scenarios, it's very normal that we all fly relatively low. If we were to get Strategic Bombers (AI or otherwise) and mission designers were to design appropriate scenarios about escorting them at high altitude, I'm sure that the fight would start moving up. Not sure how you could come up with such scenarios, mind you (air start for the bombers? Regular bomber streams that spawn on a timer?).

2 hours ago, Warpig said:

 If people are going to belittle the Mustang before it's even released, atleast try to not make your Spit XIV agenda so obvious. 😂

 

I'm not sure why you think the Mustang will make any difference concerning the K4, as far as "who has the best fighter" is concerned. 

 

P-51 will be magnificent, the Cadillac of the Sky... but it's not like the Devs have shown themselves willing to bend the numbers in the name of game balance, and so we can assume the P-51D will perform in accordance to what is documented... and those numbers show the K4 is a better performer, and that's not surprising since the K4 is a later development to the P-51D.

Furthermore, the P-51D was not the killer fighter some make it out to be. Generally speaking, the Spitfire (IX or XIV) was a better air superiority fighter... but the Mustang was still a very good fighter, AND it could fly to Berlin and back. That's what made it so remarkable, something which nobody thought was possible. 

 

But regardless, the situation with the K4 is just a question of it being the apex of the 109 line, arriving only late in the war, while the allies are not (yet) getting the equivalent generation of aircraft, except for the Tempest (and I'm not sure about the P-38, to be honest).  Thus the interest in getting the Spit XIV, which was the closest thing to the allies' response to the Kurfurst and the Dora. 

 

To better illustrate the situation to what we currently see on the KOTA Fantasy 44 map: imagine if in a 1943 map on wings the VVS got to use a Yak-3. :)

 

 

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I'm happy to wait and see what the final plane set will bring, before making demands for a world beater that holds all the cards, and making a truly one-sided game.

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55 minutes ago, Warpig said:

I'm happy to wait and see what the final plane set will bring, before making demands for a world beater that holds all the cards, and making a truly one-sided game.

 

The K-4 is faster than the Spit XIV at most altitudes even with only 1.8 ata. The difference is just smaller than vs the Mark IX which is closer to the I-16 at sea level than the K-4.

Edited by Talon_

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13 hours ago, pegg00 said:

Been playing for a bit now and I cant count on one hand the number of time I’ve been in or seen a dogfight above 10k feet. Why are occurences like this rare? Also, would more action up high be beneficial to the game? If so, what are some possible ways the devs would go about incentivising higher altitudes? Please and thanks.


In TAW server you can usually find planes at around 4000 to 5000 meters (13k-16k feet) and sometimes even higher when both sides want to make use of their high altitude planes (like when MiGs first come up to the campaign).

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30 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:


In TAW server you can usually find planes at around 4000 to 5000 meters (13k-16k feet) and sometimes even higher when both sides want to make use of their high altitude planes (like when MiGs first come up to the campaign).

Or when I try to drag La5FNs to 9km just to get caught by them at that altitude. Hell I sweated my coldest sweat during that chase.

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24 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

The K-4 is faster than the Spit XIV at most altitudes even with only 1.8 ata. The difference is just smaller than vs the Mark IX which is not a whole lot faster than the I-16 at sea level.

 

Even if the Spit XIV was the best, that wouldn't be relevant. What's relevant is what airplanes were there at the time and place the sim portraits. If balance was part of the equation, BoM would have been very different indeed. :)

 

As for the Spit XIV, I don't really know if it beats the Kurfurst or the Dora. But it was the contemporary equivalent of those two fighters for the allies (along with the Tempest), was present over that battlefield in that time period, and so it would make an excellent addition to the lineup.

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7 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

the contemporary equivalent

 

Not even all that contemporary. It's a January 1944 aircraft, while the Dora and Kurfurst don't show up until the late autumn.

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When I think of what we have planned, I consider this.

 

According to a film I seen, Luftwaffe pilots said the Mustang turns better than the 109. So the Mustang should be just as fast as the K4, but will turn better. And the K4 with better acceleration than the Mustang. That right there should make them very even. Not to mention that we haven't even seen the Spit IX in its best form yet. It will always be a better dogfighter than the K4 regardless. I only imagine what the boosted version will bring. Then the Tempest, P47, and P38 aren't any slouches either. With this set, every plane offers something different to the battle, without one plane having everything.

 

I may be wrong, but in my opinion the Spit XIV (especially boosted), would hold all of the most important attributes in one plane in speed, climb, acceleration, and turn. It would remove the potential dynamic and competitive combat that the announced plane set offers. I don't want to see one plane ruling the skies in every area. That's only fun for one side. 

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