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The necessity of realistic head movement in IL-2

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

You guys are comical. I remember when TrackIR first came out years ago, the typical overly-vocal types came out saying, "it's cheating!!! Snapview players will be at a disadvantage!!! It's a rich person's toy!!! It's not fair that others can use this tech and I cannot!!! Things eventually died down, and people came to grips with the fact that TrackIR and its derivatives were here to stay. Now, virtual reality comes along for the game (hey, another rich person's toy!) and now the complaints have come full circle - only now it's both TrackIR users and snapview users that are seen as having an unfair advantage. 

 

I agree wholly, IL-2 need Warthunder like mouse aim system, so poor people without HOTAS can also play this wonderful sim.

 

Edited by CptSiddy

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Posted (edited)

I guess like most complaints (read helpful suggestions as intended by the author), the majority of them are valid, however, perhaps with resourcing constraints or even home PC implementations, this one is not a quick fix. 

I for one understand what his issue is and agree, however, I'm sure that if it were to be implemented it could be either selected or de-selected,  as currently in game I have cockpit shakes etc enabled.  However, each to their own!

 

Regards

Edited by Haza

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4 hours ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Real pilots can not turn their head by 180°, they can not move their head at lightspeed, they can not focus on things behind them, they can not look back while maneuvering.

This "checking your opponent at your six and reacting to his every move and shooting" (I used to do it as well) is absolutely unrealistic and impossible to do in real life (and with VR), so yes, it's not only effort, it's a whole lot more (unrealistic) advantages TrackIR/snapview users have. 

Honestly I think DCS “over the shoulder look back” is easier to use and more realistic. In IL-2 you have to look back and lean sideways. DCS you just turn your head. 

 

I still don’t understand what your point is. All sims are going to use TrackIR because it’s the best peripheral ever made for these things. As far as realism is concerned real pilots don’t have to press buttons just to turn their head. 

And yes real pilots can look behind them. We can just do it easier. We also aren’t pulling 7 Gs while doing it either. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

That video is pretty much how i look like in real life when flying sim, minus the plane or altitude and plus one weird helmet display :biggrin:

 

You work quickly quite a sweat if you do that in a proper furball. 

 

And you know what the weirdest part is, when you do high g stuff, you natural "rest" your head against the canopy (that is not there) as if expecting the G forces.Like in the clip shown. One of those weird predictive brain system getting tricked in to thinking there will be G's, tho inner ear tells no such thing. And it don't cause you any discomfort. 

 

But the easier part is what sets apart the TrackIR and other, even VR, stuff. Keys are troublesome and having 1:1 is real workout in a fight. 

Plust, the scanning of the sky is far easier when you get 360 degree coverage with ~50 degree actual movement range (depending on your sensitivity settings),

You can effortlessly scan the sky with TrackIR by small *left right left right* head movements, that would take Arnold Schwarzenegger of the neck workouts to in real. 

 

However, if anything need to be done about this, or can be, i don't know. It just my opinion about trackir users as a VR user :biggrin:

Edited by CptSiddy

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Honestly I think DCS “over the shoulder look back” is easier to use and more realistic. In IL-2 you have to look back and lean sideways. DCS you just turn your head. 

 

I still don’t understand what your point is. All sims are going to use TrackIR because it’s the best peripheral ever made for these things. As far as realism is concerned real pilots don’t have to press buttons just to turn their head. 

And yes real pilots can look behind them. We can just do it easier. We also aren’t pulling 7 Gs while doing it either. 

 

 

 

You won't ever understand how unrealistic TrackIR use is in some occasions when compared to real life, as long as you don't use a VR headset in competitive flight sim situations. The guy in this video also quite clearly shows the possible angle to see stuff (much smaller then using TrackIR). He takes off his hands of his controls in one occasions just to see behind him, etc. He has to constantly turn his head from left to right when maneuvering and trying to keep the target in sight..all things you don't have to do with TrackIR.

 

As Siddy said, in an online environment you instantly know if you are flying against a TrackIR pilot because of their vastly superior 360° "eye radar". 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

He takes off his hands of his controls in one occasions just to see behind him, etc.

 

You have to do that in VR sim, too, if you want to take a good, prolonged look back. The similarities of the movements i have done and what he does is scary :ph34r:

 

This acrobatic activity forms actually 1/3 of what air combat is all about. Fail at this and other things wont matter as you cant keep track of anything. 

Edited by CptSiddy

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5 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

However, if anything need to be done about this, or can be, 

There’s nothing that can be done about it so there’s no real point to this discussion. 

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On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:03 PM, SharpeXB said:

There’s nothing that can be done about it so there’s no real point to this discussion. 

 

Of course there is. Off the cuff I can think of several possibilities to make it more realistic.

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Of course there is. Off the cuff I can think of several possibilities to make it more realistic.

What solutions? Make VR-only servers? 

To be honest the “owl neck” head turn in IL-2 makes looking behind you more difficult than DCS where you have a more natural over the shoulder view. In IL-2 you have to turn and lean whereas in DCS you just need to turn. DCS also replicates the look behind and up motion easier. So more realistic motion in this regard isn’t harder it’s actually easier. 

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1 hour ago, Sire said:

Im beginner to MP , but would be a good thing with a server with only VR ppl 

( If the VR ppl will visit it ) 

There aren’t enough people playing online to make options like that feasible. Most times there is only a single populated server. 

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

What solutions? Make VR-only servers? 

To be honest the “owl neck” head turn in IL-2 makes looking behind you more difficult than DCS where you have a more natural over the shoulder view. In IL-2 you have to turn and lean whereas in DCS you just need to turn. DCS also replicates the look behind and up motion easier. So more realistic motion in this regard isn’t harder it’s actually easier. 

 

In the future or with more people this would indeed be the fairest solution. If I look over to racing sims, there are many tournaments where controller use is forbidden when it could be exploited, so wheels only servers. With the current numbers that's not a good way though...

 

Another solution would be to limit the view capabilities when under high-G or under heavy maneuvering..or locking the controls at certain view angles (I can assure you it's almost impossible to maneuver effectively when looking at your 6 in VR). Don't get me wrong, I am not advertising these - I am merely pointing out that it would be possible. For starters it would just be fair to give similar capabilities to VR pilots (snap view)

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1 hour ago, Sire said:

I know , I have seen .....but maybe one Day 😁

 

People wanted the same thing when TrackIR became popular. It never happened. 

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

In the future or with more people this would indeed be the fairest solution. If I look over to racing sims, there are many tournaments where controller use is forbidden when it could be exploited, so wheels only servers. With the current numbers that's not a good way though...

 

Another solution would be to limit the view capabilities when under high-G or under heavy maneuvering..or locking the controls at certain view angles (I can assure you it's almost impossible to maneuver effectively when looking at your 6 in VR). Don't get me wrong, I am not advertising these - I am merely pointing out that it would be possible. For starters it would just be fair to give similar capabilities to VR pilots (snap view)

Well it’s just a simple fact that VR puts you at a disadvantage cometetivly because it’s too realistic. It requires you to move more physically. It’s been said before... Be careful what you ask for, you might get it! 😬

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Just to give an idea of head movements with a POV video. +8G -6G and roll rate is about 400° per seconds, may be a bit more. 

 

So too much head movements (like in COD), THAT would be completely unrealistic.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Just to give an idea of head movements with a POV video. +8G -6G and roll rate is about 400° per seconds, may be a bit more. 

 

So too much head movements (like in COD), THAT would be completely unrealistic.

 

 

Good example. And in reality you wouldn’t even perceive your own vision moving as much as the GoPro. The head flop in CoD and DCS is just overdone. 

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