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II./JG77_Spaz

Spotting. Please improve

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13 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

 

Unfortunately this has been the general attitude of a lot of the "BoX Old Timers". I will admit most of the people who posted have been fairly pleasant which was a surprise to me to be honest but it was only a matter of time until people started posting childish stuff in response to a legit question and concern. 

 

For those who have posted helpful ideas I really appreciate you guys. I will try the tips and tricks suggested. For those who have a consistent childish attitude, your the reason this sim genre stays as small as it does. Its totally unnecessary.

 

 

Most of the people are pleasant here! Even when they don't share the same experience or opinion - it's always a question on how you say things. Most of the chaps here

are respectful. But going back on topic and especially you as the owner / opener of it:

 

- Did you try some of the tips and tricks proposed to you? What's your new experience now? Did it help or improve your spotting abilities?

 

Would be really nice to hear from you in this respect, because it is interesting for us too, to read if our contribution helped you or not. Thank you.

 

Cheers

Edited by -IRRE-Therion

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3 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Evidence ? what the hell you think this is?

Its a user who is having some issues and this is your way of helping? Better dont post a reply if its not useful

 

Yeah, my way of helping is to point out that their initial complaint post is completely useless if they want the developer to actually look at the issue.  In order to get help you need to provide actual evidence of the problem.   

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S!

 

 The problem is right there. People say how they can spot in real life and also bring in how hard it can be. Of course it is. But making a GAME overwhelmingly hard to spot in just for the sake of "realism" is plain stupid. Or it can also boil down to a game engine not suitable for stuff like this required in a flight sim. We are dealing with monitors incapable of resolutions an eye/brain combo has. Not even the 4K is anywhere near, even it is a lot better than 1080p. A game should consider playability vs realism instead of artificially making things harder than they really are. Having excuses like it will kill the game due X and Y is just that, making excuses. A developer should not be constrained to delivering a gaming experience to a gamer who expects a Raspberry PI level computer to deliver cutting edge graphics. At some point minimum requirements have to be lifted or you are just dragging dead weight that hinders the game development. Even Oleg knew this back in the day, he said if you want greater fidelity etc. then expect the HW requirements to rise.

 

There are games out there that beat IL-2 in this department where it matters, seeing the plane without making it arcade. You can still lose the plane but it is not a squinting game like in IL-2 where planes turn into a pixelated mush against clouds etc. 

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I don't know much on the topic but I was thinking of it recently as I was engaging in air combat and then even keeping track of my flight.  On a 27" monitor at 1080p, at 2k aircraft just don't exist at normal FOV and even fully zoomed in they are quite small at that distance.  This is the same for ground objects and to be honest, I fly across the world a few times a year and I know at various altitudes what I can spot on the ground and it is not the same in game as it is in life.

 

Objects in game appear smaller and less discernible compared to real life.  People here are complaining about the 10k limit but to be honest for me and my setup, even zoomed in, 2k is the limit which is just not what I experience in the outside world.  I travel a lot and I also ride sports motorcycles at the track and on the street and know the importance of spotting and and Id-ing hazards (aka other vehicles) at distance.  For motorcycling it is a case of spotting other vehicles and expecting them to be in yuour path regardless of what you wish.  Proactive defense.

 

Were these aircraft so small at 200 to 500 meters and near invisible at 2km?  Without labels on my 27 inch monitor 1440p and 144Hz, I'd be f-ed. 😂

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2 hours ago, blitze said:

Were these aircraft so small at 200 to 500 meters and near invisible at 2km?  Without labels on my 27 inch monitor 1440p and 144Hz, I'd be f-ed. 😂

 

I've switched recently to 1440p 144Hz screen and I will say that it helps in my scenario. That plus G-Sync just makes for easier spotting in the sim.

 

That being said, the 10km rendering limit should be increased. Especially for ships.

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People will argue at what distance someone could spot an aircraft itself, but I think that in the short term, being able to see contrails at much larger distances would be a very desireable improvement.

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We have ideas, but no available resources to experiment at the moment. Maybe in the future we can make some changes. We have to also balance performance with visuals. I don’t like the current limit myself, but I hope to make changes here. Although this is an annoying limitation to some, it’s not a showstopper situation. My one graphics programmer also works on other areas. He’s quite busy always.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/42025-are-we-ever-going-to-get-this-information/?do=findComment&comment=712804

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S!

 

 Annoying to some? Does he even play his own game in MP, or at all? Every single virtual pilot I know who plays this game says the same: spotting, LOD bubble and other issues in BoX are horrible or very annoying, even rest of the game is OK. Plain and simple. 😏 With tips and tricks posted here and some other places one can improve things more or less, but for a new sim pilot this can be a showstopper case if he/she does not find the useful threads BEFORE being frustrated to hell and back with the issues "veteran players" already know, resulting in sacking the game for good and telling others not to bother. For forum regulars and long time sim pilots it is not a problem, they have years of experience with the current and previous products. But there are many who just want to play on their limited free time and do not have the time or motivation to scour every corner of a forum or similar to find a trick X for an issue Y. A lot of people just want to play, not tinker ages with the game to get an experience they hoped for. 

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Most of the visibility problems are player induced through hardware settings or habits. So they’re out of the Devs control. 

On 12/25/2018 at 3:10 AM, LLv34_Flanker said:

There are games out there that beat IL-2 in this department where it matters, seeing the plane without making it arcade. 

Which games? Plural?

There are only two CFS sims I’m aware of right now that are actively supported. This and DCS. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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S!

 

In certain ways even WT does better work in spotting department, Sharpe. One can argue about their dot implementation, but when planes are closer they are IMO better done than in IL-2 and do not get blurred against clouds. 

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6 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

In certain ways even WT does better work in spotting department, Sharpe. One can argue about their dot implementation, but when planes are closer they are IMO better done than in IL-2 and do not get blurred against clouds. 

I don’t play WT so haven’t seen what they do. But the problem with “dots” (DCS tried something similar) is that then you’re enhancing visibility too much and then making it resolution dependant. So then aircraft are visible from extreme ranges and lower resolutions make them appear larger. So it’s not a good solution 

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Well, after wading through all the BS I did find some useful information in this thread.  Based on a couple of recommendations, I used 216th Jordan's settings also and I find spotting much easier.  I can make out wings on distant aircraft and picking out low flying aircraft from the terrain clutter has really gotten better.  I recommend them also. Of course, it's based on your setup.  Mine is 1080ti, 34" Predator 4k at 60fps.

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On 12/22/2018 at 8:22 PM, 216th_Jordan said:

 

there are a number of settings that improve spotting:

- switch off DSR / SSAO

- set landscape filter: blurred

- set filter: sharpen

- use ingame AA instead of Nvidia profile AA

 

in nvidia control panel:

- set all graphics filtering options to off (no trilinear filtering, no anisotropic sample optimization) / set graphics filtering: high quality / no fxaa, transparency or stuff

- set gamma correction off

- set LOD bias clamp

 

Do you have these settings? If not please try and report your findings.

 

May be a good advice but damn does it make the game look awful.

Edited by Max_Damage

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2 minutes ago, Max_Damage said:

May be a good advice but damn does it make the game awful.

 

Awful? Oh come on, you're really exaggerating about it. It's absolutely not awful - with these settings it still looks very good

and you're even able to spot anything. Or do you prefer an eye-candy overdose, but unable to spot anything and to finally

end up getting shot down eye-candy wise - and still you don't know from where and from whom you were massacred?

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What shock me is that you are able to spot at 7 - 10 km, but my gunner spot only at 1.1 km.

When he decide to open his mouth, it is too late and you are dead.

 

 

 

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On 12/23/2018 at 10:52 AM, -IRRE-Therion said:

Or I am completely wrong and start to be senile?

 

 

Yes you are wrong. It's not about ones ability or lack thereof to spot aircraft at extremely long distances. It's about aircraft in-game failing to render past certain distance, which as you might imagine is not what happens in real life. Myself and some others would like for the aircraft to be rendered at much, much longer ranges than currently (of course proportionally smaller) so that in rare cases when you're looking at the right direction at the right time you are awarded with a long range spot. Those would obviously be rare, but possible, while currently they are not. If we want to simulate real life, which I hope it's what developers aim for mechanics similar to real life should be applies, rather than artificial "outside certain range = completely invisible" mechanics that are in the game currently. That's just my take on it.

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8 minutes ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

If we want to simulate real life, which I hope it's what developers aim for mechanics similar to real life should be applies, rather than artificial "outside certain range = completely invisible" mechanics that are in the game currently. That's just my take on it.

 

Dude, c'mon, of course that's what they are aiming for. Jason can't explain it any more clearer than he recently did. 

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Just now, LukeFF said:

 

Dude, c'mon, of course that's what they are aiming for. Jason can't explain it any more clearer than he recently did. 

 

Yeah whatever dude I don't really read what Jason says cause he always sounds like he's angry at his own community I was just responding to that guy

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23 minutes ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

Yeah whatever dude I don't really read what Jason says cause he always sounds like he's angry at his own community I was just responding to that guy

 

He's not being angry at the community - he's just being upfront and honest with the constraints they have to deal with. So, it's your own fault for being left in the dark, because you don't want to read what he has to say. 

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I went to 1440p and found planes are easier to see at 4.5 to 5km out than at 1080p.  Frame rate dropped 15 on average from the change with CPU utilisation on a ground attack mission Moscow with Dense Front Line was around 30 to 40% varied. i7700HQ with MaxQ 1070 GPU, CPU core at 3.48Ghz.

 

Pretty and still smooth.  Wonder what 4K would look like res wise with spotting but I don't have 4K monitor here to test, have to wait.  I also then loose the refresh rate speed my 1440p 144hz monitor delivers.

 

So would love 4k per eye VR with 90+ fps but alas, nothing to drive it at this point in time. ))

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3 hours ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

he always sounds like he's angry

That's not anger as Luke said. And please don't take it personally.

 

Jason is terse (short and to the point). Engineers are terse. You ask them a question and they'll give you an answer. Period. If you then ask another and related question you will get a more detailed explanation. Otherwise the engineer considers your first question answered and is ready to move on to something else. Good engineers are busy.

 

The developers are very busy and they have been turning out some amazing production. I am grateful they take the time to keep us informed of what is planned and what they are working on to correct problems that arise. They don't have to do that. They could spend that time making commercials or filling the space with spam like so many video game companies.

Cheers

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I don't think it looks awful.  Maybe it's my monitor but it looks real to me and I can see those 110's in the distance.

2018_12_25__19_4_36.jpg

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5 hours ago, Max_Damage said:

May be a good advice but damn does it make the game look awful.

I would rather die in a pretty world than live in a not pretty one...

Without eye candy what would I have to live for?

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I don't think I could do the "blurred" landscape even if it did give slightly better object definition against the background.   I tried it a couple of times though just to see, and I was actually surprised that it really didn't seem to make that much difference to spotting abilities.  Maybe it would have if I had used it for long enough, don't know... but I don't think it's worth the expense to immersion.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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Probably varies with monitor resolution etc: when I switched to "blurred" not only did I find it easier to see planes against the ground, but I actually thought the game world looked more "immersive". That is probably from coming from one, and now living in another country, where the clear air and crystal detail of of the "sharp" settings is only observable on a few days a year.

 

It works for me, but like all of these settings options YMMV - at least we have options to play with. People can always stick to icons.

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Visibility in flight sims would be tremendously improved by adopting HDR

 

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 2:18 PM, Seb71 said:

 

If that 24" monitor was a 1920x1080, you also got a slight increase of the pixel size (about 6%). Have you kept the viewing distance the same?

 

If you lock the fps at 60, does the spotting gets worse?

 

That 4k monitor is of which screen size?

Yes it was 1920 x 1080.  Viewing distance is the same.

 

Haven't tried locking the fps at 60 Hz to test it to see if spotting gets worse.  Sorry.

 

Not sure what size the 4K monitor my squad mate has, but almost sure it is >30 in.

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On 12/22/2018 at 2:03 AM, II./JG77_Spaz said:

Someone can be half a click in front of you and completely disappear.

 

When these threads come up, and big discrepancies emerge between different posters as to what the situation (or ability of the engine) is, there's a recurring theme I think:

The O.P. usually silently assumes the context is multiplayer. Then people respond, contradicting, and it turns out they do experiments offline.

 

When this happened to me in the past, I had to concede that the engine can render planes up to 10km (or more, dont want to get into that fight).

 

Many of us, in multiplayer, experience spotting issues, which I think aren't bottlenecked by what the engine will render, but rather, a client/server thing, often called a 'bubble', but which is distinct from the 10km rendering bubble, where you overfly an area and you're only presented with the contacts once you're far closer than 10km.

 

Something similar, but slightly different, happened to me just now on the EFront server. I was driving around in tank, hatch open, looking at an AI stuka. It kept disappearing and reappearing. It's wasn't very small at all (distant), not: a single pixel or something. It was a bunch of pixels, not a compact blob, but vert stab distinguishable and so on. It wasn't flying away or approaching, but going perpendicular to my view axis.

 

Then I realised I was playing around with the scroll wheel. When I zoomed out all the way, it disappeared. When I zoomed in a bit, it appeared again. When disappearing, it didn't decrease in size until disappearing, it disappeared, bang, going from multipel pixels across, to transparent. To confirm this, I played around with the zoom for a while, turning the plane on and off many times.

 

This was an AI, so I tried to do the same thing with a player controlled plane nearby, where it didn't work. No idea if the distance wasn't right, or if this only happens with AI, or what determines the outcome.

 

I'll continue to try and replicate that with player controlled planes.

 

--

 

Edit: just went on EU official normal (with icons) to estimate how far away that stuka must  have been. I'd say around 3.5 to 4.5 km.

Edited by stupor-mundi

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