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II./JG77_Spaz

Spotting. Please improve

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I gotta say, I have a crappy cheap monitor. 60 hz refresh rate only, pretty small (24 inches), 1080p.

But with some tweaks to the settings in-game and tuning the monitor, I spot pretty good these days. I don't often spot against the ground at 9 km but I can definitely pick them out against the sky at that distance. If you're not seeing them until 500m you probably have a settings problem.

Other sims didn't have as hard of spotting often because they used icons past a certain point, rendering planes as black dots pretty far out. This game doesn't.

Tune your monitor a bit in your graphics cards settings (There's been like 6 topics on spotting tweaks for the last 6 months, all with great advice.) Adjust your settings. You can get decent spotting with 15 minutes of work on your system. It will be much more productive than trying to get an answer out of the devs, who will probably not answer because
a) they're busy as hell 
b) any answer they give is going to be hardware dependent, so what works for them may not work for you.
c) the nature of dev comments here is that anything they say can and will be used against them

Please try some of the tips people have given here and in other threads. They're made in good faith because people want you to enjoy the game. There's no point waiting for a dev answer that will likely not come. Jason has stated in the past he wants to improve draw distance/spotting but could not give a timeline as they have many other things going on.

PS: IIRC Gambit has posted screenshots in the past using icons showing the "in/out render" thing. It's a bizarre thing but it appears to be true...once an aircraft enters the bubble, it will continue to be rendered even if it leaves the bubble for quite a while. Most people don't notice it (I certainly don't) because their setups can't really see aircraft rendered past 10km anyway. You need a good setup to notice it.

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2 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

Sorry to question this so much, because I never experienced this. If this is true it would be a major advantage for some. Can you provide a screenshot with a render distance more than 10km? (icons on) Really don't want to step on your toes but this seems totally weird.

 

2 hours ago, Krupinskii said:

 

Agreed I'd like to see it with icons on too.

 

I would like to see that also, and i ask for that before when he claimed this, as hes only person on this game forum saying that he can see airplanes from 20km, wehen even devs say limit is 10km, so i hope to see picture or video with icons showing this, as all videos or pictures clearly show contacts just disapere when icon say ~9,6km.

 

54 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I gotta say, I have a crappy cheap monitor. 60 hz refresh rate only, pretty small (24 inches), 1080p.

But with some tweaks to the settings in-game and tuning the monitor, I spot pretty good these days. I don't often spot against the ground at 9 km but I can definitely pick them out against the sky at that distance. If you're not seeing them until 500m you probably have a settings problem.

Other sims didn't have as hard of spotting often because they used icons past a certain point, rendering planes as black dots pretty far out. This game doesn't.

Tune your monitor a bit in your graphics cards settings (There's been like 6 topics on spotting tweaks for the last 6 months, all with great advice.) Adjust your settings. You can get decent spotting with 15 minutes of work on your system. It will be much more productive than trying to get an answer out of the devs, who will probably not answer because
a) they're busy as hell 
b) any answer they give is going to be hardware dependent, so what works for them may not work for you.
c) the nature of dev comments here is that anything they say can and will be used against them

Please try some of the tips people have given here and in other threads. They're made in good faith because people want you to enjoy the game. There's no point waiting for a dev answer that will likely not come. Jason has stated in the past he wants to improve draw distance/spotting but could not give a timeline as they have many other things going on.

PS: IIRC Gambit has posted screenshots in the past using icons showing the "in/out render" thing. It's a bizarre thing but it appears to be true...once an aircraft enters the bubble, it will continue to be rendered even if it leaves the bubble for quite a while. Most people don't notice it (I certainly don't) because their setups can't really see aircraft rendered past 10km anyway. You need a good setup to notice it.

didnt saw any pictures like that posted showing contacts from more then 10km in game, with icons (without using mods)

Edited by 77.CountZero

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3 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

You keep posting this stuff, but you've never posted any proof of it, no video or screenshots whatsoever...

 

I have posted screens - but can’t show them to you in 4K.

 

Plus I have better things to do then try and prove anything. That would take multiple layers of work. Don’t believe me - my day goes on just the same.

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2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

I would like to see that also, and i ask for that before when he claimed this, as hes only person on this game forum saying that he can see airplanes from 20km, wehen even devs say limit is 10km, so i hope to see picture or video with icons showing this, as all videos or pictures clearly show contacts just disapere when icon say ~9,6km.

I have 3440x1440p monitor, its close enough to make difference - if not 20 km, than 15, 14 or something. Yet I see targets running from me or on my sides vanish around this 9.5 km range. We have other folks also using 4k monitors or even TVs. @307_Banzai Have you ever tried 4k on your TV and saw any difference with render in/out targets ? 

 

I dont buy that. 

 

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I’ll post a few more when I get a chance - might not be today. Holiday stuff happening etc. However I’ll reiterate that you won't be seeing them as I see them on my monitor. 

 

I’ll try for tonight but no promises.

In short, as I explained before. Approach or “in” render distance is shorter (10k maybe) pulling the camera away however render distance is much greater.

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6 hours ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

Why wouldn't the development team actually step up and address this?

 

Perhaps you didn't notice but it's Saturday.

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7 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Thanks, we are going to be testing this in a few minutes.  Will report back.

 

Did you find anything better? Or worse?

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Well according to the icons, the planes draw in around 9.5km, and they are a bit easier to see and are more defined now.

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1 minute ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Well according to the icons, the planes draw in around 9.5km, and they are a bit easier to see and are more defined now.

 

Yep, it isnt a game-changer, but I find these settings to provide the best solution for spotting for close as well as far away. (I use 4x ingame AA)

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2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I have posted screens - but can’t show them to you in 4K.

 

Plus I have better things to do then try and prove anything. That would take multiple layers of work. Don’t believe me - my day goes on just the same.

 

Time to put this rubbish to bed.

 

image.png.99880e1ede8a13a09e6fd4262658f81d.png

12km


dDopgFX.png

Now you see it

5l5GjWP.png

 

Now you don't

Camera location. Look at the sticky-out bit on the coast on the right.

Cw9s2kM.png

 

JHRYZxo.png


Also for good measure, here fully zoomed out appearing/disappearing at the same range but now in the distorted screen corner:

 

qZxn914.png

 

mT9syxN.png

 

lPFSvVx.png

 

Aircraft do not render outside of 10km.

 

Courtesy, a user of a higher-resolution display than you.

Edited by Talon_
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You've proven what happens on your monitor and just wasted your time frankly.

Nobody doubts aircraft disappear for you at 10k

 

I'm preparing a test mission now.

When my public build is done updating I'll run the test.

 

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3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

on your monitor

 

My supersampled VR set is higher resolution than your monitor.

7 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

Sorry to question this so much, because I never experienced this. If this is true it would be a major advantage for some. Can you provide a screenshot with a render distance more than 10km? (icons on) Really don't want to step on your toes but this seems totally weird.

 

No way. Aircraft don't even make it down to 1 pixel before despawning. The P-47 is not the smallest plane in the world however it still takes up multiple pixels on the screen before it despawns at 10km. This proves without doubt that higher pixel density is not a limiting factor.

 

Further evidence:

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

My supersampled VR set is higher resolution than your monitor.

 

 

My monitor doesn't seem to care...but seriously you have VR beyond 4K?

 

Let me be clear about something in any case.

Going back to my original posts on this subject way back when.

 

My intent was never to say "look how great my monitor is" or anything similar.

Only to remark that according to my tests, under some circumstances, the engine is apparently capable of rendering beyond 10k, and "isn't that interesting" and maybe

means there's a way to fix the issue for everyone under all circumstances.

 

That's all.

Edited by Gambit21

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1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

the engine is apparently capable of rendering beyond 10k

 

Not even the player's own aircraft as seen above in the video.

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I don't get that popping that you get - at all.

I've done this test at that exact airfield.

Not sure what else to tell you.

 

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Post it then. Everything I just posted took me ten minutes to create while reading this thread.

Edited by Talon_
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I will post screens a bit later.

A movie wont' do any good unless you can watch it in 4K, which isn't happening.

 

I'll also take a shot at that Novo field.

Edited by Gambit21

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Post the 4k movie. YouTube can host 4k content.

 

4k doesn't even matter as the plane despawns well before it shrinks down to even 10 pixels let alone 1, and I got that in 1080p mode. Pixel density is not the limiting factor.

Edited by Talon_

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I get aircraft rendered all the way down to a single 4K pixel - they do not "de-spawn" for me.

All I can tell you is what results I see on my equipment.

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So do what I did. Record it and enlarge it so we can see that single pixel. If you do not have the facilities to enlarge it, please feel free to record the raw footage and send it to me via Google Drive and I'll happily apply the same edit that I used above to it to help you prove this.

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Monitor and graphics settings provide an excellent spotting experience in normal light conditions when you get used to it. I can reliably spot stuff at max distance for the most part. The devs have adressed the render bubble multiple times, it won't change anytime soon according to them.

 

So there's not a whole lot to respond, really. "I can't spot well" is not really something a coherent response can be formulated for. Use the tips the guys in here gave you, they are valid and worked for me for a very long time.

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12 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

So do what I did. Record it and enlarge it so we can see that single pixel. If you do not have the facilities to enlarge it, please feel free to record the raw footage and send it to me via Google Drive and I'll happily apply the same edit that I used above to it to help you prove this.

 

How are you recording your video?

I'm good with still image editing etc, but never posted a You Tube video in my life.

I have a 1080, that comes with a recording app if I remember correctly...

I'll start with a still image or two, and an enlargement of the aircraft/render region.

Talon - I have to go make dinner so this quick sample is all I have time for tonight.

I'll try and post more tomorrow.

 

Note: I shrunk these screen shots to 2700 pixes in order to be able to post them.

The actual  4K screen shots are 23mb.

At this distance the aircraft are actually still rendered, just too small to make out.

I have to practically touch my nose to my monitor with my reading glasses on to see them, and even then have to zoon in a hair.

 

The camera is pulled back all the way across the water over the land mass is you illustrated.

The aircraft shrink beyond my ability to see them with the naked eye...they never visibly disappear no matter how far I pull the camera back.

 

 I didn't move the camera for either shot, but I zoomed in on the second one.

I have a test mission prepared with subtitle messages at 5K intervals.

 

Reminder to everyone, these image are not at 4K otherwise they're too large to post.

 

 

2018_12_23__2_55_19.jpg

2018_12_23__2_55_32.jpg

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For me with the settings 216th_Jordan posted the planes despawn at exactly 9.5km distance, and they are quite identifiable pixels at 9.5km when they start to disappear.

I had a group  of 5 il-2's and you can see each in turn despawn as they go past 9.5km distance, they start to disappear one at a time  until all are gone.

 

that's on my 32inch 1440p monitor at 60hz on gtx 1070 (see full  specs in my signature below.)

Edited by =RS=Stix_09

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4K render tests, spotting.

 

Talon - here in the right pic are two 109's at 20K or around thereabouts.

Note, in order to get this result (while not having to fly the aircraft) I got to the external aircraft camera, hit F11 to free it up, then pull back.

I've also included another shot of the 2 109's, right at the point where Icons disappear, you can see the lead aircraft has list his icon - but is still being rendered.

The trailing aircraft is about to lose his icons.

 

I'm not sure about all of the factors here, but I know 2 things.

First, what camera you are using matters. With a static camera operator, the aircraft and Icons disappear at 9.5K or so as you experience.

With the F11 external camera, the Icons disappear but the aircraft continue being rendered indefinitely it seems, or until I run out of pixels.

I can't see this happen with the naked eye. In fact its seems that they might be rendered well beyond 20K.

 

So under the hood camera parameters and resolution seem to play a part here.

I'll do more tests with the internal "pilot head" camera when I can.

 

I also need to do more "in" render tests. These are all pull back "out" render tests.

 

What this comes down to though is basically the point I made originally...which is that the engine is capable given the right circumstances.

Also now I have a thread to link to when someone starts whining about how I'm making things up (nobody in this thread thankfully)

 

Again, I submit this as only an interesting observation at what the engine seems to be capable of, NOT remarking on how great my equipment is etc.

Not the point here.

109's at 20K.jpg

Icon_No Icon.jpg

Edited by Gambit21

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So far you've not posted anything that looks like a plane further than 10km away to be honest.

 

Those bombers on the deck at Novo are definitely not 20km away.

 

Use il2missionplanner to find yourself a fixed reference frame as I did.

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After over a 1500 hours in the editor and a campaign behind me I think I know how to set up a test mission thanks.

I didn't say the bombers at Novo were 20k away - point is that they're a whole F'ing lot further away than 9.5k.

 

Anyhoo - done here.

I have a test mission set up with waypoints and subtitle messages set up at 5k  out to 30k that I'm running tomorrow, but I've thought better of posting results here in public.

Edited by Gambit21

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If you place a single player IL-2 on the ground in the ME with icons on, then go to free camera, place it above the plane then pull it back: the plane disappears at 9.5km. Zoom makes a difference to how many pixels there are at this range  - plenty on my 4K monitor even unzoomed - but no difference to the blink-out range.

 

It looks like a rigid range to me, even on the free camera: I cannot say that I have ever seen anything further away. 

 

We just need the flexibility that RoF had with distance sliders for different classes of objects. MP servers can lock them if they want. 

 

One thing I did notice while editing tracks to make films was how often there were obviously visible planes on the screen that I simply did not see while playing the mission, presumably due to the stress of staying in formation, worrying about navigating or just looking in the wrong place. Extending the render distance would be useful in some circumstances, but it is not a panacea.

 

Seeing planes against the ground should be difficult: one thing in the game that helped a lot was setting landscape detail to "blurred". That changed spotting even very close contacts against the forest to from "impossible" to "merely difficult" and made the game much more enjoyable. 

Edited by unreasonable

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Boys and Girls,

 

this topic was entitled "Spotting-please-improve" and I thought this interesting topic has something to do on how to improve the spotting abilities in

this game (artificial environment). Depending on your hardware we've seen how we might get some better result in spotting things.

 

Well, silly me also thought, spotting abilities in this game should depict the abilities of spotting things in RL in some way. Knowing this is actually

not or nearly not possible with today's hardware because of all different atmospheric parameters such as light, air density, weather conditions etc.,

we are still able to spot things at let's say 9.5 km - more or less. I'm happy if I spot things at 5 klicks to be honest.

 

Now, willing to accept my age of 54 and realizing too, that things won't be better without reading glasses, I really still wonder how far a human being

can spot things in RL. I know it very much depends on a whole bunch of factors. I'll give you an example of my RL experience:

 

- I live quite close to the Swiss alps and from were I live it takes you about 45 minutes of a car trip to reach the first snowfield

  and skiing facilities. Depending on light condition sometimes those mountains seem to be closer to you, sometimes not. And

  when they seem closer to you they are much more crisp and you can see a lot more details.

 

- There is a mountain only about 10 km from my town. Under most ideal weather conditions you can spot our capital Bern from

  the sight seeing platform (altitude ca. 2'100 m), which is around 30 km away. Sometimes you may even discover the cathedral.

 

- I used to be a quite good rifleman: The shooting range is set to 300 m and I did a lot of so called "Mouches" (5 cm bullseye),

  but this was also depending on weather conditions and light - so here we are again - and of course we were stationary and

  therefor not moving nor did our target.

 

So finally, considering my sight deficiencies due to my age, I still think that a young person with impeccable sight can't spot a airplane (stationary or

moving) from a moving airplane beyond 10 km. And of course we're talking about airplanes like we have in our game, so without positioning / navigation

lights on etc.

 

Now, this topic turned from "good advice to spot better in a game" to "which pixel technology is better for spotting things beyond a natural distance!" Do you

really want to be able to discern a fly's shit on the wind screen of someone 20 klicks away from you??? C'Mon guys, this is insane.

 

Or I am completely wrong and start to be senile?

 

Cheers

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Here is a plane climbing out of Gatwick I once spotted at about 30km

 

 

20161203_105611.jpg

unknown-37.png

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26 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Here is a plane climbing out of Gatwick I once spotted at about 30km

 

 

20161203_105611.jpg

unknown-37.png

 

Well this plane has quite different dimensions compared to our planes we actually can see in the game, isn't it?

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3 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

Well this plane has quite different dimensions compared to our planes we actually can see in the game, isn't it?

 

It's about twice the size of a He111 visible from three times further away.

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2 hours ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

<snip>

So finally, considering my sight deficiencies due to my age, I still think that a young person with impeccable sight can't spot a airplane (stationary or

moving) from a moving airplane beyond 10 km. And of course we're talking about airplanes like we have in our game, so without positioning / navigation

lights on etc.

<snip>

 

Or I am completely wrong and start to be senile?

 

Cheers

 

No comment on the last point - being ten years older I do not wish to address that possibility. ;) 

 

I do think that you are wrong to say that  "a young person with impeccable sight can't spot a airplane (stationary or moving) from a moving airplane beyond 10 km."

 

They can: under some circumstances. As you say light and atmosphere have a great deal to do with it. There is a suspension bridge 7km from my apartment, and on on clear day just after a rain shower has leaned the dust from the air I can see individual vans and trucks moving over it with no problem, and the glints from windows of cars I cannot make out clearly. I can even see the suspension cables. In other conditions I can barely see the bridge. 

 

I am not sure why,  but formations of aircraft are also much easier to see than individual aircraft. A formation of He111 would often be visible at much greater range than 9.5km.

 

 

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So i still dont see evidance that when your in cockpit and you look for other airplanes like all normal players would do, that your able to see them from more then 9,5km like all other players and devs say limit is. Some pictures from outside static cameras have no meaning to player playing in airplane, your just confusing others with your insisting that if they buy 4k monitor they would have double the visibility range, when game does not alow players to see from more then 9,5km when they play. I realy dont know whats your point in all this, or how hard it is to show picture from cockpit, and if its not posible why confuse people who dont understand all the deatails with stuff about some f11 views only alowing this so visbility bubble is somehow 20km if you just get better equipment, when that will help them 0% and just trow their money at nothing.

Also then when people have normal complain that range of bubble should be more then 10km, others will see this and say but it is 20km or more, and dont understand why people complain about short bubble. Show how from cockpit as most of us play from cockpit and importance of visibility range is there as you need to spot your oponent that you can see contacts from 20km (icons on as i see from first pictures of a-20s that was not even 10km ), and then start to wrongly tell people that if they have 4k monitors they can see from more in situations that mather. To me this looks just like troiling guys who have complain that visibility range of 10km that is now in game is to small, with your claims of 20km.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Multiplayer or SP draw bubble is almost  10 km , you can see on max zoom when he111 made with dozen of pixels just disappear in the air when he cross event horizon. I remember when one of Dev  said that making this visibility further would kill multiplayer. So it's look like  without significant overhaul of netcode this can't be done without creating mayhem.

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:44 AM, Gambit21 said:

Is this a bad time to point out again that I have contacts showing 20+ km away?

A bit unclear to me if you can see them at 20km while you're flying? And if you do, is there dramatic change in fps?

 

I know that game engine can render planes at longer distances than 9,5km. Anyone can test this while playing a recorded flight. Just pause, go free camera and move away and the plane is rendered beyond 9,5km. But as soon as you hit play the plane vanishes if you're looking at it beyond the 9,5km distance. That's why I'm asking if you can see distant contacts while you actually play the game.

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19 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Ok.  Don’t bother providing any evidence.  I don’t have that much trouble seeing things, so it’s actually to my advantage that you remain blind.

Evidence ? what the hell you think this is?

Its a user who is having some issues and this is your way of helping? Better dont post a reply if its not useful

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Evidence ? what the hell you think this is?

Its a user who is having some issues and this is your way of helping? Better dont post a reply if its not useful

 

Unfortunately this has been the general attitude of a lot of the "BoX Old Timers". I will admit most of the people who posted have been fairly pleasant which was a surprise to me to be honest but it was only a matter of time until people started posting childish stuff in response to a legit question and concern. 

 

For those who have posted helpful ideas I really appreciate you guys. I will try the tips and tricks suggested. For those who have a consistent childish attitude, your the reason this sim genre stays as small as it does. Its totally unnecessary.

 

Edited by II./JG77_DocuSim
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