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II./JG77_Spaz

Spotting. Please improve

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Devs,

 

The spotting issue is just really, and I mean really bad. Someone can be half a click in front of you and completely disappear. Can we please get a civil explanation or discussion on this from the developers. Please, someone from the dev team, can this be addressed in some way. What is the problem? Why is it so bad? Is there any chance or hope of it being fixed? Is it even on the priority list? 

 

If someone has some sort of solution to this that somehow improves the situation drastically please inform me. I'd love to hear it. I've tried so many things, everything from disabling AA because I understand it basically blurs objects, especially at a distance, disabled FXAA, no bloom, no hdr, I'm on track ir so my resolution isn't a problem. 

Edited by II./JG77_DocuSim
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I believe that you and most people who have extreme spotting issues are looking at the problem... it is your monitor, yes really.

 

I have had experience with this issue, let me tell you my sad story 😢

 

I used a Samsung S34E790C monitor for Rise of Flight and with that graphic engine (it was a lot more saturated in it's colours among other things) the monitor was quite good and I was generally the better spotter with the chaps I flew with. Planes were slower being WW1 so the 60Hz was generally not a big issue but was from time to time noticeable.

 

RoF online eventually dies in no small part the the cheating GT squadron so it is over to il-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad and, well, things are a lot harder to see. First the 60Hz refresh rate was/is just not fast enough for the increase in aircraft speed. I will not go into detail as this video shows it better than I could explain it in 1000 words or less [Slow motion] 240Hz vs 144Hz vs 120Hz vs 60Hz - Monitor refresh rates.

 

I would often loose Russian aircraft against the deck when flying German even at low altitudes and I would loose German aircraft against the sky when flying Russian aircraft when they had barely separated by 1000m.

 

I tried everything with monitor hardware and driver settings doing all sorts of funky stuff and I might get some improvement in one season that would then make another season twice as hard.

 

Then came the 3.0 update and suddenly I was almost totally blind. What changed in this update to cause this? Not sure but I suspect it had to do with the aspect ratio on wide screen monitors being fixed so the aircraft was not stretched and became smaller i.e. harder to see.

 

Spotting was so difficult that I considered giving the game away.

 

Luckily I had a 27" Samsung S27D850T that I could throw onto the gaming PC and oh my golly gosh I could see!! I could see Russian planes on the deck from 6k, I could follow them over trees and when a German plane buzzed me and zoomed up into the sky I never lost him. It was like seeing for the first time.

 

Of course that is when the 60Hz of the monitor starting to show how deficient it was as I could see when I was not seeing a smooth transition.

 

So then I got an Asus ROG Swift PG279Q 144Hz monitor and now I see what I was missing with the 60Hz monitor. I can now easily see wing and aircraft body shapes at long distances allowing for correct ID's and in a fraction of the time when I had a 60hz monitor.

 

So to make a short story long, replace your monitor.

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Is this a bad time to point out again that I have contacts showing 20+ km away?

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Just will add that I believe that there are some deficiencies in the il-2 Sturmovik that does not show fast moving objects against static ones as well as it should so yes there also does need to be work done on the game engine.

 

But even this was done my original monitor would not have cut it anyway as it was so deficient in showing contrast and shades of colours and was too washed out.

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I have trouble spotting targets when they are below me. I deal with it by flying lower than them ;)

Edited by pegg00
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3 hours ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

everything from disabling AA because I understand it basically blurs objects, especially at a distance, disabled FXAA, no bloom, no hdr, I'm on track ir so my resolution isn't a problem. 

Actually you want AA on because it smooths transition between pixels or fills in jaggies and gaps. With AA off you could lose whole pieces of distant aircraft. HDR you want on since it’s High Dynamic Range and increases contrast. Bloom shows more reflections from other aircraft as well. 

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I know that Teddy Bear did a lot of research on monitors, and I think his advice is good.  He helped me a lot in deciding to go from a three screen setup to a single screen setup with much higher refresh rates.

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10 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Is this a bad time to point out again that I have contacts showing 20+ km away?

Wow...
Mine dont even render before 10k in multiplayer.

 

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There is some deficiency to spotting, mainly at closer ranges IMO. Sptting isnt that easy in real life either however, when I'm flying gliders we often have trouble spotting our guys and gals even if they are just 2-5 km away, and that in a white glider with 18m wingspan. It really depends on the situation, but the problem IMO is that in some light settings contacts seem to almost vanish from sight due to how pixels are rendered. Overall I think spotting is hard because in a world of pixels the resolution is never as clean as in real life, so there is always noise in rendering which makes spotting of moving targets harder. (thats why landscape filter blurred helps because it smoothes things out).

 

In VR, due to real zoom/FOV, spotting seems to be a lot easier.

One thing I really hope for is custom icons for the regular client, so that multiplayer servers and SP players can adjust when icons will be show (which fraction, which distance, which color, ground targets or not). In old sturm I always had the most fun on Skies of Valor which would only show contacts less than 2km away and then only a uniform color for any contact IIRC.

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12 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Is this a bad time to point out again that I have contacts showing 20+ km away?

 

Gambit, would you mind sharing your graphics settings, and hardware?   20km seems like a dream to me.  I cannot see aircraft until after their icons are fully drawn in, with icons off, I got nothing until it's far too late.

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17 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Gambit, would you mind sharing your graphics settings, and hardware?   20km seems like a dream to me.  I cannot see aircraft until after their icons are fully drawn in, with icons off, I got nothing until it's far too late.

Aircraft cannot render past 9.5 km.

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13 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Is this a bad time to point out again that I have contacts showing 20+ km away?

 

23 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Gambit, would you mind sharing your graphics settings, and hardware?   20km seems like a dream to me.  I cannot see aircraft until after their icons are fully drawn in, with icons off, I got nothing until it's far too late.

 

I was tempted to ask "what sim are you playing?"  When trying to adjust calibration of a new monitor, I did some QMs and toggled Icons on.  I saw that the Icons themselves faded out of view at a distance of about 10km.  The contact itself was a pixel on the screen.  In practice, when flying with Wingmen on a server with map icons, even when we verbally exchange map grids and altitudes, unless he is against horizon haze, the practical spotting distance is a lot less than that.   I agree with you Blitzpig, 20km is dreamlike.

Edited by SeaSerpent

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And here we have yet another confounding thing about the sim/community.

So may differing thoughts on what is actually happening that we don't know what is real and what isn't.

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I second what Capt Teddy Bear stated above regarding the monitor refresh rate.  I was using a Samsung 24" 60 hz monitor and had real problems seeing other aircraft until I was right on top of them (or usually they were on top of me).  Other members of my squad could spot cons and even though they would direct my view to the part of the sky they were at, I could still see nothing.  I recently purchased a 34" Predator (2560 x 1440 resolution) with a 144 hz refresh rate...and the difference was amazing!  I could finally spot cons, and they wouldn't suddenly disappear when they passed out of rendering range like my old Samsung.  Another member of the squad who has the same problem purchased a 4K monitor (as opposed to my ~2.5K), but although his graphics are fantastic, he still has problems spotting and dealing with disappearing cons.  So, I have to conclude that the refresh rate is more important than resolution when it comes to spotting moving targets.

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4 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

And here we have yet another confounding thing about the sim/community.

So may differing thoughts on what is actually happening that we don't know what is real and what isn't.

 

Objective truth is that contact draw distance is ~10km. 

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16 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I wish I could see them at 10.  7ish is about all I can do currently.

 

there are a number of settings that improve spotting:

- switch off DSR / SSAO

- set landscape filter: blurred

- set filter: sharpen

- use ingame AA instead of Nvidia profile AA

 

in nvidia control panel:

- set all graphics filtering options to off (no trilinear filtering, no anisotropic sample optimization) / set graphics filtering: high quality / no fxaa, transparency or stuff

- set gamma correction off

- set LOD bias clamp

 

Do you have these settings? If not please try and report your findings.

 

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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Thanks, we are going to be testing this in a few minutes.  Will report back.

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1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

Aircraft cannot render past 9.5 km.

 

They do for me on my hardware - I've covered this before.

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Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

They do for me on my hardware - I've covered this before.

 

Do you have a link to where you cover this? Is this a mod?

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Gambit, would you mind sharing your graphics settings, and hardware?   20km seems like a dream to me.  I cannot see aircraft until after their icons are fully drawn in, with icons off, I got nothing until it's far too late.

 

High settings - 4K monitor.

"In render" is shorter than the "out render distance"

 

Once an aircraft is rendered, I don't lose it till beyond 20k - we're talking.a single 4K pixel.

 

There's an engine component and most definitely a hardware component.

 

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6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

High settings - 4K monitor.

"In render" is shorter than the "out render distance"

 

Once an aircraft is rendered, I don't lose it till beyond 20k - we're talking.a single 4K pixel.

 

There's an engine component and most definitely a hardware component.

 

 

Sorry to question this so much, because I never experienced this. If this is true it would be a major advantage for some. Can you provide a screenshot with a render distance more than 10km? (icons on) Really don't want to step on your toes but this seems totally weird.

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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1 minute ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

Sorry to question this so much, because I never experienced this. If this is true it would be a major advantage for some. Can you provide a screenshot with a render distance more than 10km? (icons on) Really don't want to step on your toes but this seems totally weird.

 

Agreed I'd like to see it with icons on too.

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Guys,

 

Thanks for the civil discussion that has taken place (so far). Thank you for your suggestions and will try said techniques. 

 

I still have not seen anything from the developers (The post is only a day old so that is understandable). All I see is mainly tester and founders posting about this issue (some of which is purely conjecture). While I appreciate your attempts, I want to hear from the developers own words. I've been flying simulators since 1993. I'm not new to the scene. Not a single simulator has ever been even remotely close to as bad as this when it comes to spotting. Enraging is an understatement. You spend 90% of your time being so focused on your wingmen that spotting for contacts is almost pointless.

 

With all due respect I shouldn't have to go out and buy a $600 144hz monitor in order to spot contacts, on top of the very high prices for this game. Devs? In your own words. What is the problem? Will you change anything? Are there plans? This would go a long for me in restoring my faith in the franchise if the developers can address this in a civilized manor. Please feel free to get as technical as you like with your explanation. This needs to be talked about and to be frank I'm surprised this hasn't been clearly discussed and addressed sooner. 

 

Thank you.

 

In the mean time I will be trying out some of the techniques previously mentioned and report back.

Edited by II./JG77_DocuSim
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20 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

With all due respect I shouldn't have to go out and buy a $600 144hz monitor in order to spot contacts,

 

Well you don't, but having more frames and a smoother image is going to make seeing things easier whenever you are moving your head. A larger monitor or lower pixel density will also make things a bit better most likely.

 

Seriously though, I've never had issues, neither on my current 144hz 32inch 2k screen or on my previous 60hz fullhd 27 inch. I'd also seriously question calling this game the 'worst' for spotting with the other 3 letter sim out there right now.

Edited by =RvE=Windmills
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2 hours ago, BSS_Stel said:

I second what Capt Teddy Bear stated above regarding the monitor refresh rate.  I was using a Samsung 24" 60 hz monitor and had real problems seeing other aircraft until I was right on top of them (or usually they were on top of me).  Other members of my squad could spot cons and even though they would direct my view to the part of the sky they were at, I could still see nothing.  I recently purchased a 34" Predator (2560 x 1440 resolution) with a 144 hz refresh rate...and the difference was amazing!  I could finally spot cons, and they wouldn't suddenly disappear when they passed out of rendering range like my old Samsung.  Another member of the squad who has the same problem purchased a 4K monitor (as opposed to my ~2.5K), but although his graphics are fantastic, he still has problems spotting and dealing with disappearing cons.  So, I have to conclude that the refresh rate is more important than resolution when it comes to spotting moving targets.

 

If that 24" monitor was a 1920x1080, you also got a slight increase of the pixel size (about 6%). Have you kept the viewing distance the same?

 

If you lock the fps at 60, does the spotting gets worse?

 

That 4k monitor is of which screen size?

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17 hours ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

Devs,

 

The spotting issue is just really, and I mean really bad. Someone can be half a click in front of you and completely disappear. Can we please get a civil explanation or discussion on this from the developers. Please, someone from the dev team, can this be addressed in some way. What is the problem? Why is it so bad? Is there any chance or hope of it being fixed? Is it even on the priority list? 

 

If someone has some sort of solution to this that somehow improves the situation drastically please inform me. I'd love to hear it. I've tried so many things, everything from disabling AA because I understand it basically blurs objects, especially at a distance, disabled FXAA, no bloom, no hdr, I'm on track ir so my resolution isn't a problem. 

 

I really urge you to follow the instruction that 216th_Jordan gave us - it really helps a lot. I just tried these settings for the NVidia Control Panel (although it seems shocking to us)

and my in game settings I already had. My game settings look like this:

 

Inked2018_12_22__19_7_24_LI.thumb.jpg.bff0543522b13f4c75fd256a5c8340a9.jpg

 

Depending on your hardware, which might be better and newer than mine (see my specs in the footer), you can tune up on Shadows, Distant landscape detail etc.

but just have a look at those settings outlined in red. These help enormously for spotting enemies.

 

* I set the gamma correction manually to 0.7 in the startup.cfg file.

 

Try this. Hope this will help you a bit. It did for me. Thank you Jordan.

 

Cheers

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I always thought this sim and RoF had really superb visibility. 

When people have trouble with this is usually due to similar reasons. 

- Wrong graphic settings like turning off AA

- Inadequate hardware. In order to play well without icons. You really need at minimum a 24” 1080p monitor that can do 16.7 million colors. 

- Not utilizing the zoom view command. 

- Unrealistic expectations. It is actually difficult to spot other aircraft.

- Being too used to different sims. Many of these older sims had extra enhancements which aren’t needed on HD screens anymore. 

 

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27 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

I want to hear from the developers own words

 

Forget it! You hardly won't hear any statement from them - so, keep following the tips and tricks of us all. Regarding hardware tech diversity

people here on the forum might have much more experience than others (uhm). You will get less frustrated - believe me. I had the same mindset

like you and I was very upset and mad, but only those good chaps finally helped me.

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1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

High settings - 4K monitor.

"In render" is shorter than the "out render distance"

 

Once an aircraft is rendered, I don't lose it till beyond 20k - we're talking.a single 4K pixel.

 

There's an engine component and most definitely a hardware component.

 

You keep posting this stuff, but you've never posted any proof of it, no video or screenshots whatsoever...

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38 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

I still have not seen anything from the developers (The post is only a day old so that is understandable).

That’s funny. You’re expecting the Devs to respond instantly on a topic that’s as old as sims themselves and really has no solution. It’s been discussed to death everywhere on all these games. 

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Why wouldn't the development team actually step up and address this? This is what I'm talking about with the team. This is a very simple, valid question that has been a problem with the game for a long time.

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s funny. You’re expecting the Devs to respond instantly on a topic that’s as old as sims themselves and really has no solution. It’s been discussed to death everywhere on all these games. 

 

Thats funny, I'm pretty sure you could go back and see the second post I wrote that clearly said "I understand its only been a day and thats why I haven't heard anything as of yet".

 

People like you are the type that give a bad rap to the game. Stop being so defensive and ready to jump on someone. My god, all I did was ask a few questions about something that has been a problem for a long long time and spoke about it directly to the developers. You really don't need to respond to me that way.

 

Every single time, and I mean every time someone posts some concerns about this game someone like you jumps up to defend like a guy defending his girlfriends honor at all costs. Its unnecessary. Discussions are okay.

Edited by II./JG77_DocuSim

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3 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

Why wouldn't the development team actually step up and address this? This is what I'm talking about with the team. This is a very simple, valid question that has been a problem with the game for a long time. Yet we can't even expect an explanation? Seriously? After all this money spent?

 

Respond to what?  You haven’t posted any actual evidence of a problem.

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9 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

Why wouldn't the development team actually step up and address this? This is what I'm talking about with the team. This is a very simple, valid question that has been a problem with the game for a long time.

 

They have addressed this numerous times over the past years as you surely found out when you used the search function. They have also explained the status quo quite well and they surely would like to improve it too, it's just not very feasable up to now.

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4 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

I wrote that clearly said "I understand its only been a day and thats why I haven't heard anything as of yet".

I’m just suggesting that it’s a bit unrealistic to expect a response from the Devs within a day. They typically don’t respond to every single topic here. 

What one person might consider vitally important may not be important to them or others. 

When it’s an actual bug or problem they are quite responsive. 

This particular topic is impossible to communicate exactly because there are so many reasons why some players have difficulty with it and others don’t. 

In order to get a real response from the Devs you need to communicate the problem exactly. The situation and your setting and hardware. Like that. Describe conditions that they can repeat in testing. Just saying “I can’t see stuff” isn’t specific enough. 

Put it in the suggestions section. Even then you can’t expect them to drop everything and respond. 

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30 minutes ago, II./JG77_DocuSim said:

 

This is rich.

 

Ok.  Don’t bother providing any evidence.  I don’t have that much trouble seeing things, so it’s actually to my advantage that you remain blind.

Edited by BraveSirRobin
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