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1./JG42flesch

need the T34 Gun an Fix?

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The 76mm Gun of the T34 can only penetraded a Armor off 90mm on shortest Distance.

How can a T34 destroy an Tiger of an Distance from 1.500m on the Front.

[edited]

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Dev Bias accusation of any type wont be tolerated
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On 12/6/2018 at 10:51 PM, 1./JG42flesch said:

The 76mm Gun of the T34 can only penetraded a Armor off 90mm on shortest Distance.

How can a T34 destroy an Tiger of an Distance from 1.500m on the Front.

[edited]

 

Hi,

 

I'll try to give you a hint or two:

 

- go and check the product description of TC Cap

- 2nd hint - check what early access means

 

The whole game is still in development (work in progress) - so, nothing is perfect, there is no Russian nor German

bias. It's simply not finished and will be improved step by step.

 

Cheers

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Agreed. Tank Crew is in its' infancy of development. Much more to come. 

 

Also, remember that tactics can come into play even in tank battles. One can attempt to get side or rear armor attacks in on heavy tanks. One can also knock a track off thereby immobilizing the tank. There are always weak points on every tank. The Tiger is a beast alright but it is not invincible. Also there historically weren't that many of them on the battle field comparatively speaking. Missions builders should not have huge numbers of Tigers or such tanks for players to contend with in a single mission.

 

I look forward to future Tank Crew developments even with expected bumps in the developmental road along the way. Happy tanking people. :salute:

Edited by Thad
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A shot with a couple of rounds(HE) to the top of cupola(especially with the hatch open) can do some damage.The Tiger has the thinnest armor there.You cannot take it out head on.But again...work in progress 😃

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Yes, the effect of HE on the Tiger is clearly unrealistic and thus a bug. But I have to wonder about what those players who never drive any other type of tank, and who complain constantly about HE, what they imagine gameplay *should* be like...

Those same players complain most vocally in chat when the red side has a numerical advantage.

Since IL-2 Great Battles, and probably, Tank Crew, aims to be historical, and thus, not balanced (artifically), with regards to the vehicles...

and since, this HE ammo bug, is one of the factors that contributes to currently making the Tiger not AS superior as it correctly would be ...

Once the HE bug is fixed, how do they imagine this SHOULD play out? They'd be playing in their invicible Tigers against a numerical parity of T34 paper tanks? and thus, always win, without utilizing any sort of tactics, caution, trickery, or skill?

 

Quite obviously, in order to attract anyone to still play the other side, the mission designers would then have to impose numerical limits on Tigers, or even ratio limits on blue players, to ensure a strong numerical advantage of red tanks.

 

Maybe a mechanism would have to be introduced, where a player would have to do 3 missions in a Panzer 3 for 1 mission in a Tiger. 😃

 

Somehow I'm sure this outcome would not be welcomed by those who now lament their Tigers as too fragile.

 

For a sense of perspective, I'd suggest to the self declared Tiger pilots to play the other side occasionally.

Edited by stupor-mundi

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Considering this is a simulator game, I don't expect T34s to have any chance in a frontal engagement eventually. It makes me feel bad, when I oneshot Tiger I players from the front. I feel like I didn't deserve those victories at all. The damage models are not finished yet, and will probably become more realistic during next spring.

 

I've noticed there are certain players who always stack on the russian side on some of the dedicated tank servers no matter what happens. With small community, this often leads to few players facing over 10 at worst.  In this scenario, one would at least expect to have some sort of safety in a Tiger I from longer distances, but the currently unrealistic HE effectiveness negates much of the advantage a Tiger should have. It makes it quite frustrating to play axis tanks sometimes in general, and further fuels the fragile state of Tiger I. You are facing superior numbers with too powerful armament. I have yet to see an axis team win in a tank match. This is no accident.

 

Another sidenote on the damage models.

 

Just today I played a match as Panzer 3. I ambushed a T34 from point blank distance, and unloaded 20 rounds of APCR ammunition to it's engine, turret side and side-armor. After 20 rounds, the T34 finally spots me, gives me a few kisses and my turret flies clean off.

 

Work in progress.

Edited by Torrens
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Yes. Got destroyed by a T34 at 2.9 km after the second shot to the front armor of the Tiger. The DM is very, very off right now.

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On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:13 PM, SCG_Riksen said:

Yes. Got destroyed by a T34 at 2.9 km after the second shot to the front armor of the Tiger. The DM is very, very off right now.

 

Yes, something is off.

 

A heavy KV1 struck a light tank (German 38t) in one of my Hold The Line missions five time and failed to take it out. Range 4-500m. 😲

 

I had to reconfigure the mission to create the expected outcome for the scenario.

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On 12/6/2018 at 11:51 PM, 1./JG42flesch said:

How can a T34 destroy an Tiger of an Distance from 1.500m on the Front

 

It can't, WIP or not.

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 "76 mm APHE rounds won't erroneously damage the internal components without penetrating the armor."

 

Seems like the community was correct with the problem lying in rounds that contain HE.

 

However, there was no mention of change in regular HE rounds or fake T34 armor like shown in that video. Regular HE rounds might still cause erroneous damage when fired by any tank.

 

Needs testing.

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Just tested this. HE rounds are still bugged. The whole DM model to be honest. I was defending one of the tank bases in EFront server and @stupor-mundi began shooting at me from +3 km. I engaged back but, because I didnt have a lot of rounds left, I just ignored his shots since, in my silly thoughts, if the simulation is anything close to realistic, at that distance, his rounds wouldnt even chip the paint of the Tiger. Oh boy, oh boy, how wrong I was lol ... After the 6th or 8th round, 2 of my crew were dead lol ... At the current state, there is basically no strategy to the tank battles. All you have to do is just keep shooting regardless of the distance. There is no knowing when the other tanks will be destroyed. Sometimes you shoot at the tracks and the continue moving, a lot of times you shoot from less than 300m and they keep moving even after 6+ rounds ... TC is getting close to becoming the next real thing after the movie Fury lolololololol.

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I tried out Thad's 'Tank Firing Range' mission yesterday. Fired, as a Tiger, a lot of HE at T34's and KVs. Interesting because you won't encounter a lot of KVs in multiplayer. The kill message, of the KVs, appeared usually after the 2nd or 3rd hit with HE.

So I'd like to point out that the off-ness in the DM, is there with regards to HE vs proper anti tank rounds, but it goes in both directions, red vs blue wise. I think the larger caliber Tiger HE rounds are even more effective than the other tank's HE rounds. Certainly when you shoot HE at a tiger currently, you would not *on average* take it out with 2 or 3 hits.

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On 12/19/2018 at 4:40 PM, SCG_Riksen said:

Just tested this. HE rounds are still bugged. The whole DM model to be honest. I was defending one of the tank bases in EFront server and @stupor-mundi began shooting at me from +3 km. I engaged back but, because I didnt have a lot of rounds left, I just ignored his shots since, in my silly thoughts, if the simulation is anything close to realistic, at that distance, his rounds wouldnt even chip the paint of the Tiger. Oh boy, oh boy, how wrong I was lol ... After the 6th or 8th round, 2 of my crew were dead lol ... At the current state, there is basically no strategy to the tank battles. All you have to do is just keep shooting regardless of the distance. There is no knowing when the other tanks will be destroyed. Sometimes you shoot at the tracks and the continue moving, a lot of times you shoot from less than 300m and they keep moving even after 6+ rounds ... TC is getting close to becoming the next real thing after the movie Fury lolololololol.

 

 

The explosive charge in the F34's HE round is good for 26mm armor penetration with a direct hit.  What's the roof armor thickness of a Tiger?  25mm?

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4 minutes ago, chuter said:

 

 

The explosive charge in the F34's HE round is good for 26mm armor penetration with a direct hit.  What's the roof armor thickness of a Tiger?  25mm?

 

Does that 26mm penetration also happens at +3km distance?

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For me playing Tanks is momently dead.

Last Event i was 3x killt from an T34 who was shoting over a distance from 3000m in to Front of the Tiger!!!!!!

This is BS and need an Fix.

Came back when the Game is more realistic.

 

Edited by 1./JG42flesch
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I agree: The russian tanks are totally not historical at the moment and is more like they are in warthunder....

 

Yesterday and previous days as well.... I engaged some T-34s from 1 km range and only showed my front armour which is over 100 mm thickness, way over what T-34 shells can penetrate, even at point blank range, most studies have shown that T-34 couldnt penetrate the tiger and kill it without having to flank it. But in this case my hit didnt do anything to it but one shot from the T-34 and boom, my gunner and commander is dead. Second shot from T-34: Im dead.

Next battle I got surprised by a T-34 from 100 metres range and it shot at my turrets front with the worst kind of shell(minimal penetration and not HE) and took out my gunner and commander.... Even he in the chat wrote: Did I seriously pen you? My response: Yes, my turret is out. Him: holy damn.

 

I later took a look on the T-34 in the game and apparently they have a shell that has 129mm of penetration at 100 metres or less, no T-34 memo I read have they ever gotten such shells or if they now did it was extremly rare and most never even got it. I recall soviet couldnt produce these without american help hence 90% of the russian tanks never saw those shells, and its discussed if they ever got them.

I hope they remove these as it makes each russian tank the ability to easily take out any german tank with ease and most will stock up on these only, why use the normal AP shell they historically used?

IL-2 at least with its airplanes is aiming for historically accuracy and we get to play these warmachines as they were in reality so a Tiger shouldnt be able to get killed frontally by T-34-76s or KV-1s etc, when they add ISU-122 or T-34-85 and more mean russian tanks I can accept that but not as it is now, its ridicolus, the game developers need to fix this once the tank game is finished and please dont make this into arcade style game like warthunder where this is the norm for balancing reasons and dont want to make players who play on russian/allied side sad that they cant do anything to german panthers or tigers in the front, this is a simulator and your target group is very historicaly interested and know very well how it was in reality so stop this balancing and making some allied tanks better than they were! 
If this is still the case in the future I will have to stop playing this and stick to airplanes and recommend all interested to stick to warthunder as its better at this fantasy style of tank gameplay.

I fly central made an excellent video about how broken the germans hells are and how much punishment the russian tanks can take and have advantages they didnt have in reality:

 

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Yes, it's a work in progress, and I'm sure they will tweak the settings, but when you release tanks that are so far off with realistic parameters you just lose a lot of momentum and enthusiasm from the community.  I realize there are just so many assets to devote to this and it's going to take time, but a little feedback from those of us who support this project is a good thing. 

I mean.....you can lose your power at the house, and never tell the power company and just remain in the dark........or you can give them a call.  And when more than one person calls in....you know they are going to devote more assets to the problem.  In theory....:)

Also, it might be a good idea to have a devoted category like  "Developer Assistance,  specific for Tank Crew and Flying Circus, or at least add some subcategories for both sections of the forum.  

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On 12/22/2018 at 5:30 AM, SCG_Riksen said:

 

Does that 26mm penetration also happens at +3km distance?

 

 

Yes, as I understand it, because it's the explosive charge that's doing the penetrating.  Your chance of getting a kill with HE is actually better at a longer range because it makes the upper surfaces of the tank more of a target for the  descending round (as long as you can hit it - lol).  Obviously, at 500 meters your not likely to hit the upper surface because of the relatively flat trajectory of the round.  Also, it appears they may be allowing the HE blast to penetrate turret MG and any viewing ports if hit directly which may be a thing, frankly.

 

My observation overall (shoutout to judgedeath3) is that as far as the Russian tanks vs the Tiger either they have boosted armor or the Tiger's 88 rounds are nerfed a bit which might actually be intentional at the moment to offset the generally poor gameplay decision of releasing the Tiger against the T34 and KV1.  The StuG F or G* would have been an great choice as far as gameplay is concerned (deadly gun but no turret) in place of the Tiger but it appears to me that the decision to release the Tiger now was based on potential game sales (dude, the Tiger is SOOO cool).

 

*StuG F is modeled in game already but is not planned for player control (booooo - the StuG is arguably Germany's single most important armored vehicle).

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8 hours ago, chuter said:

Obviously, at 500 meters your not likely to hit the upper surface because of the relatively flat trajectory of the round. 

At close range, you can aim at the cupola. Thus your chances, at very close range, of making the round go off right on top are pretty good.

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Do you guys know if the latest patch fixed the HE gun issues? Any improvements in the close range shots or do we still need like 5 shoots to kill a T34 at 200m? I cannottest any of the changes because my computer is under repairs right now so I would appreciate if someone could shed some light here.

 

Thanks!

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Yep.They fixed it.Now i can kill a Tiger with one shot with an HE round instead of 2-3 shots.And you can kill a T34 with one shot if you aim at the right(or left) area.:acute:

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Nope they did not. I just tested it ... 4 100m shots in a T34 to destroy it ... It is still crap

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3 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

Nope they did not. I just tested it ... 4 100m shots in a T34 to destroy it ... It is still crap

 

Yeah, I have to agree, I'm at that stage where I wished I hadn't even bothered buying TC Cap so early.  

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On 12/6/2018 at 11:51 PM, 1./JG42flesch said:

The 76mm Gun of the T34 can only penetraded a Armor off 90mm on shortest Distance.

How can a T34 destroy an Tiger of an Distance from 1.500m on the Front.

Is that an Game Bug, Russian Bias or what is wrong with this Game?

 

I'm disappointed.
two months are not fixed, for the Russians "Über" ammunition.
As a founder, I am really angry. 😡

Edited by 7./SchG2_v*Athlon

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On 2/8/2019 at 10:47 PM, SCG_Riksen said:

Nope they did not. I just tested it ... 4 100m shots in a T34 to destroy it ... It is still crap

Sadly yes, as I wrote somewhere else on this forum, my experience with how the game is like at the moment:

Tested the game today:
T-34 and KV-1 can still take out the Tiger tank frontally with one shot, no problem but most of us german players had to hit the T-34 several times before it got taken out.

I shot a T-34 in the ass from 100 meters with my tiger: The shot bounces, not until the 3 shot I penetrate and it is blown up, all gun statistics and data shows that would never happen in real life.

 

Then I played with panzer III: Got attacked by 2 T-34s but they couldnt penetrate my armour, I think I shrug of around 40 shots before my tank was fully taken out, so a panzer III has better armour than a tiger, who knew? And this was from 800 meters distance.


Its so far from realistic with how the russian tanks behaves and also how incorrect Panzer III and Tiger is in the game, I fear this is how it will be like when the game is fully released and my fave tank: Panther will just be 1 shot kill for a russian T-34 from the front from any distance. 😕 That is how most players experience is so far with the game.

If they say the game is an arcade game I can buy it, but this is supposed to be a super realistic simulator.

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Let's just hope they will have a better DM when it is officially released. I still think they will and, despite the current frustrations, the game has a lot of potential and I'm sure will be improved until released.

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On 12/7/2018 at 12:04 AM, Thad said:

Agreed. Tank Crew is in its' infancy of development. Much more to come. 

 

Also, remember that tactics can come into play even in tank battles. One can attempt to get side or rear armor attacks in on heavy tanks. One can also knock a track off thereby immobilizing the tank. There are always weak points on every tank. The Tiger is a beast alright but it is not invincible. Also there historically weren't that many of them on the battle field comparatively speaking. Missions builders should not have huge numbers of Tigers or such tanks for players to contend with in a single mission.

 

I look forward to future Tank Crew developments even with expected bumps in the developmental road along the way. Happy tanking people. :salute:

 

Where were the Tiger weak spots?

 

tiger.jpg

TankDatasheet_Tiger1E.jpg

 

http://wio.ru/tank/damage/pam.htm

 

39443731sn8.jpg

 

http://wio.ru/tank/damage/pam-f.htm

 

pant.jpg

Edited by 15[Span.]/JG51Spartan

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Wonder if the effects of SU152 HE on a Tiger will be accurately modelled? :biggrin:

 

e.g. Turret removed or tank OK but crew dead from concussion.

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I hope so. :) Shouldnt be too hard to program in, just: If HE from ISU 152 hits the tank from any angle: automatic dead, no need to try and simulate each crew member etc as the result would be the same in the end.

Same with Panzers and T-34s: IF penetration: Dead, if the round cant pen the armour: Bounce.

 

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Interesting discussion.   I normally don't hang out on the tank side, but I have been thinking about getting Tank Crew.  Just an historical note:  The Russians lost 5 T34s for every German tank they killed.  An absolutely horrid K/D ratio.  The Sherman did far better against German tanks.  If missions are historically built, there should be a bare minimum of Tigers, as they just were not  everywhere, all the time.  The Panzer III and IV should be the most widely seen types, and they should do well against the T34, and be roughly on par with the M4, more or less.

 

I guess I should wait a bit before taking the plunge into this side of the series, by the sound of it.

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3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The Russians lost 5 T34s for every German tank they killed. 


Are you sure? I think this average include dozens of thousands BT5 light tanks from beginning of the war. And that it is average of tank loses rather than tank to tank casualties. 

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As I understand it, this statistic is about T34 only.  It does not surprise me at all.  The T34, especially the /76, was an ergonomic disaster, it's two man turret made for an overworked, task saturated commander and crew (something we will not experience in a video game), and it's cramped interior, because of the Christie suspension and sloped side armor also added to the crew's problems fighting the tank, and made getting out of the tank in the event of fire very difficult, thus adding to crew losses.

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I have to stay suspicious to this as there are not enough Soviet loses for that. At 1941, there were 7 to 1 ratio, but there weren't many T-34 (or KV - more likely some light tanks). And later in the war, this ration lower 4 to 1 for all vehicles (Zaloga, Armored Champion).

Yes, the T-34 has those problems (and more - like transmission, lack of radios/radioman). Though I can imagine that the "Mickey" turret with two rounded hatches and with the front driver hatch it wasn't that hard to get out, at least not for those three crew members.
Still, good mobility and resistance to guns up to long 50mm were quite noticeable benefit.
 

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