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WWSitttingDuck

Mod Set value/Add value

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Ok, I've tried everything I can think of...

 

Sorta makes everything worse...the timer I am trying to set to zero and go off 10 secs later just keeps going off bout every 4 secs....

 

If anyone can explain how these work, would appreciate it....

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So far, I've tried the Set Value modifier with a timer. As far as I can tell, the only function available right now is to stop the timer and reset it to 0 seconds:

  • Data[0] = any negative number (I tried -15)
  • Param index = 0 (apparently the only index available for the timer at this time)

As soon as I retrigger the timer after stopping it, the timer fires right away.

Edited by JimTM
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Even if this ends up working properly I personally will ignore the feature most of the time for SP mission building most likely.

So far there's nothing I can't do (that I care to do) with the existing timer logic.

 

Basically for me extensive use of this feature would just complicate the de-bugging process, and if they broke that feature for a time with a certain build, good luck tracking the problem down in each mission. Especially looking at a mission weeks or months after you built it and trying to remember what you were thinking while looking at those MCU's.

 

I've found that sticking with a convention, and keeping logic groups simple (even if combined logic groups get very complex) is the way to go.

 

That said if I or someone else arrives at a group where this feature opens up a new door, I'll be happy to use it.

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On 12/6/2018 at 3:51 AM, JimTM said:

So far, I've tried the Set Value modifier with a timer. As far as I can tell, the only function available right now is to stop the timer and reset it to 0 seconds:

  • Data[0] = any negative number (I tried -15)
  • Param index = 0 (apparently the only index available for the timer at this time)

As soon as I retrigger the timer after stopping it, the timer fires right away.

 

I can confirm that. As a work-around, one can use a counter tied to a pair or mutually triggering timers, and interact with the counter to reset it.

 

EDIT: Like this. Disclaimer: untested, but it's using the same principle which I used to fix my groups (which I tested).

Timer.zip

 

Capture.PNG.e7a6c563fc996ac05e8d6e05489ec269.PNG

Edited by coconut
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Sorry but I don't get the logic.

Triggering "START" (id:5) will trigger both activate (id:7) and deactivate (id:6) at the same time with no delay, and both will then trigger 0s(id:2) concurrently...

Who's gonna win?

And why?

Can it be that the link from START to deactivate (id:6) is just a mistake?

 

:drinks:

Mike

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I'm still a little fuzzy on all this also...

 

the set modifier mcu....does it do the job of a trigger deactivate/trigger activate?  in other words, if I need to set a timer that is already running, but not finished to 0, do i have to deactivate it first, then reset it to zero, and the activate again, and then trigger it again to get it counting down again?  Or do i just trigger it with the set modifier mcu, and that will accomplish all of the above.

 

What really scares me is this talk about having to go back to existing missions and redo logic due to changes in mcu's in ME.   

Edited by WWSitttingDuck

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2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Sorry but I don't get the logic.

Triggering "START" (id:5) will trigger both activate (id:7) and deactivate (id:6) at the same time with no delay, and both will then trigger 0s(id:2) concurrently...

Who's gonna win?

And why?

Can it be that the link from START to deactivate (id:6) is just a mistake?

 

:drinks:

Mike

You're right, it looks like it is

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5 hours ago, WWSitttingDuck said:

What really scares me is this talk about having to go back to existing missions and redo logic due to changes in mcu's in ME.   

 

That would be a disaster for everyone, including myself,  the devs and Alex (BlackSix) and existing campaigns etc.

There would be a small insurrection behind the scenes if that happened - I don't think they'll do this.

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well...maybe I miss-read a post.....

 

Quote

I'm also disappointed that the old behaviour of retriggering a timer has changed. In the past, triggering a non-deactivated timer would always (re)start it. I used this to implement non-trivial conditions such as "Spawn AI patrol when enemy close, then repeatedly try to despawn it after 1 min unless there is still an enemy nearby". It would not be too hard to change it to use the new timer reset mechanism, but it does not work. Old trick no longer works, new mechanism doesn't work yet. I'll figure something out, but it will make the logic even more complex than it was.

 

from coconuts reply in this thread...(i gotta learn how to quote...)

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/41529-game-version-3008-discussion-damage-model-update-fixes-and-improvements/?page=8&tab=comments#comment-705054

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3 hours ago, WWSitttingDuck said:

retriggering a timer has changed. In the past, triggering a non-deactivated timer would always (re)start it...

Not having a problem here with triggering and retriggering timers in any old or new missions for that matter. Perhaps coconut has something else tied up with these timers which is causing this.

 

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

That would be a disaster for everyone, including myself,  the devs and Alex (BlackSix) and existing campaigns etc.

There would be a small insurrection behind the scenes if that happened - I don't think they'll do this.

 

Right...

Would not be the first time that MCU logic was changed following an update. Official Game Campaigns, Mission etc... Of course were changed prior to release with the new logic in place. Which makes sense of course. However as stated above timers are working as normal as far as I can tell.

 

Off hand I can recall of 3 major times. Not to mention the raising and lowering of the number of moving entities, ships etc... etc... following updates. 

The rest of us scrambled to change the voluminous amounts of entities, Complex Triggers that many used to use with total disregard to the maximum tables within the ME  after one update. After another update everyone needed to change their Complex Triggers vehicles/planes check-offs and after a third, while not expressly a MCU logic change, we had the Blue Screen update. Where everyone needed to redo the clouds in their missions.

 

As the game is progressively getting better and better over the years we put these down to growing pains and worked through them.

The current fix of just having to resave the missions through the ME is a welcomed change following major updates. 

 

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1 hour ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

Not having a problem here with triggering and retriggering timers in any old or new missions for that matter. Perhaps coconut has something else tied up with these timers which is causing this.

As written in my reply to coconut's report regarding the re-triggering issue, we (FAC) are suffering from the very same issue on all our missions.

Essentially our Server has been rendered unusable by the 3.008 patch because none of the mission logics is working anymore.

AI can't get off the ground (because re-triggering the timeouts to despawn AI in case of taxiing troubles doesn't work anymore), AA doesn't get activated (because re-triggering output timers from checkzones doesn't work anymore), ground units don't defend themselves anymore etc. pp.

It's a real big mess caused by this MCU logic change.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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2 hours ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

Not having a problem here with triggering and retriggering timers in any old or new missions for that matter. Perhaps coconut has something else tied up with these timers which is causing this.

The problem is in re-triggering timers that haven't expired yet. In previous versions it used to reset the timer, keeping it running. This mechanism could be used to arbitrarily delay something, for as long as needed, potentially for ever. According to Han's post, this use case was one of the motivations for the set value modifier, so it's not just me doing weird coconut stuff, there was an explicit need for it. This mechanism no longer works, and the new one I suspect doesn't work yet. But even if it does, it would be nice if we did not have to redo old missions. This would be a lot harder than opening a mission in the editor and resaving it. Changes to the complex trigger were not so problematic in practice because we were warned against using it too much.

2 hours ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

As the game is progressively getting better and better over the years we put these down to growing pains and worked through them. 

Normally growing pains disappear when a person matures. For software it's usually the other way around. The older a product becomes, the harder it is to keep it going. Since the Kuban release, we have had a number of bugs: AIs that plow into the ground, fixed partially after a year, months went without mod and loadout locks working properly (even today you can't lock loadout #1), hangars that can be destroyed by cannon fire (wasn't fixed last version, not tested in this one)...

 

2 hours ago, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

The current fix of just having to resave the missions through the ME is a welcomed change following major updates. 

That doesn't fix the problem being discussed here.

Edited by coconut
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1 hour ago, coconut said:

The problem is in re-triggering timers that haven't expired yet. In previous versions it used to reset the timer, keeping it running. This mechanism could be used to arbitrarily delay something, for as long as needed, potentially for ever.

Exactly.

And it's at least 3 of us now suffering from this: You, the Finnish VirtualPilots (currently down for that reason) and the FAC (technically down as none of the missions work as intended anymore).

 

Let me stress that I don't mind adding new functionalities.

I don't even mind if they're not working 100% at first glance.

However breaking existing MCUs for no good reason is a no-go.

This definitely needs to be fixed soon because there's no good way to deal with this for any server operator / mission creator.

I won't be surprised to see this even breaking commercial content like the officially sold addon campaigns.

 

If the devs have something special in mind where they need the new timer behaviour for, then the proven solution to this would be to introduce something like a "Timer v.2", alongside with the existing Timer, so you can have both "old" and "new" behaviour side by side without breaking anything.

Can't be such a big deal on the programming end...

 

:drinks:

Mike

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16 hours ago, coconut said:
18 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Can it be that the link from START to deactivate (id:6) is just a mistake?

You're right, it looks like it is

 

Just noticed that I didn't say "Thanks!" for your Timer group yet.

With the link removed between START and deactivate (id:6) it works a treat.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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So in short, re-triggering a timer no longer re-set's it?

New timer functionality is not working correctly.

Current timers that are not re-triggered before fully counting down are not compromised.

 

If I don't have that right, someone please type/retype a concise description for me to post in the beta forum.

I have a few balls in the air and don't have time to re-read the thread or test right now.

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Reported.

I agree that adding a second MCU with expanded functionality would be preferable, and leave the current time alone of messing with it compromises established logic.

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Another thing that changed is the behaviour of counters while deactivated. Before, if you triggered a counter while it was deactivated, it would fire once activated again. This could be used to delay an event until a condition was met. It would be if good someone who cares about this corner-case semantics could confirm.

 

TestCounterMemoryWhileDeactivated.zip

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