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P47 Performance Stats

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I see a lot of people asking why the P47 feels slower than it should be, but I believe they are failing to take into account indicated airspeed vs true air speed. She seems to perform as expected.

 

Here are the indicated performance specs listed in game vs what I was able to achieve. (cowl flaps/oil fully shut, inter-cooler 50% and no wind)

Here are the tools I used to calculate the approximate TAS

http://indoavis.co.id/main/tas.html

http://meteorologytraining.tpub.com/14269/css/14269_75.htm

 

MAX TRUE AIR SPEED BOOSTED

SEA LEVEL: 346mph ----- 357mph indicated (boosted)

22960FT: 435mph ----- 441mph true / 306mph indicated (boosted); 396mph true / 275mph indicated, at combat power

 

MAX TRUE AIR SPEED COMBAT POWER

SEA LEVEL: 312mph ----- 322mph indicated at combat power

29530FT: 407mph ----- 410mph true / 253mph indicated, at combat power; 417mph / 257mph indicated (boosted)

 

MAX TRUE AIR SPEED CRUISE

SEA LEVEL: 290mph ----- will update

32800FT: 388mph ----- Will update ----- 399mph true / 235mph indicated, at combat power; 411mph true / 242mph indicated (boosted)

 

I will update with my engine reading for each test as well, but its late and I need some sleep

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I've never heard anyone say the P-47 is slower than it should be. My only question is its rather low critical altitude compared with other P-47s. The P-47D-30 has a critical altitude of 29,000ft @ 443mph. And 435 @ 32,000ft.  I'm sure you can attain these speeds by overspeeding the turbo. The top speed would make sense if the D-28s high speed was at 20,000rpm rather than 22,000rpm.

 

DCS's P-47D-30 will probably be even faster as they decided to model it with a Hamilton prop ~7mph faster depending on the altitude. Also the critical alt is magically higher for some reason. Hopefully they model it so we can make use of all 15 minutes worth of water that the plane was intended to use. 😏

 

Maybe it's the acceleration which gives the impression that the plane is slow. Everyone is used to flying 109s with ridiculous power to weight ratios. The D-28 has a higher power to weight ratio than the P-51, assuming 100/130 grade fuel.

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55 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

I've never heard anyone say the P-47 is slower than it should be. My only question is its rather low critical altitude compared with other P-47s. The P-47D-30 has a critical altitude of 29,000ft @ 443mph. And 435 @ 32,000ft.  I'm sure you can attain these speeds by overspeeding the turbo. The top speed would make sense if the D-28s high speed was at 20,000rpm rather than 22,000rpm.

 

DCS's P-47D-30 will probably be even faster as they decided to model it with a Hamilton prop ~7mph faster depending on the altitude. Also the critical alt is magically higher for some reason. Hopefully they model it so we can make use of all 15 minutes worth of water that the plane was intended to use. 😏

 

Maybe it's the acceleration which gives the impression that the plane is slow. Everyone is used to flying 109s with ridiculous power to weight ratios. The D-28 has a higher power to weight ratio than the P-51, assuming 100/130 grade fuel.

 

in game it can go 438mph at 23000ft, the problem is also short boost time of only 5min, i dont know how this strong engine will fall apart after 5min of use max power when some other engines in game last double or more on max lol

 

and after that first "test run", i dont see ppl playin with p-47s online, like exected, i use it only to have fun on berloga where i can use its full potential as df lasts 5min max :D

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18 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

in game it can go 438mph at 23000ft, the problem is also short boost time of only 5min, i dont know how this strong engine will fall apart after 5min of use max power when some other engines in game last double or more on max lol

 

It's unfortunate but not all is lost now. If you go higher then thinner air will lower manifold pressure even at full throttle/boost. Therefore, the "5m WEP" will extend significantly at high altitude. When lower you can run with water injection as long the supply lasts by keeping the MP under 58"; it still will be counted as combat mode and good for 15m, yet much stronger than "normal" 52". Of course, the 64" should be available for 15m straight without any complications... Hopefully it will get fixed; until then there are workarounds.

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When you fly below 3000 ft at combat or WEP mode, check throttle lever position and MAP. If you move throttle past take-off stop position, MAP more that 52 inch (or 64 at WEP mode).

About critical altitude.

From P-47D-28 model specification:

Critical altitude is 24500 ft. Ingame - 23000 ft, 5% error. Not best result, but acceptable.

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1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

It's unfortunate but not all is lost now. If you go higher then thinner air will lower manifold pressure even at full throttle/boost. Therefore, the "5m WEP" will extend significantly at high altitude. When lower you can run with water injection as long the supply lasts by keeping the MP under 58"; it still will be counted as combat mode and good for 15m, yet much stronger than "normal" 52". Of course, the 64" should be available for 15m straight without any complications... Hopefully it will get fixed; until then there are workarounds.

 

thanks ill try that and see how it goes and what are speeds compared to max, im already using what Erkki posted before (2510 and 48" for extending combat mode to 1h+ ) 

edit:

tryed 58 and boost and lasted 15min and it was only 12mph slower then 64 and boost for 5min only, at 3000ft. So added this to my list of options in p-47d, need to buy new stopwatch so i have 5 of them when playing with p-47 😄

Edited by 77.CountZero

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48 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

thanks ill try that and see how it goes and what are speeds compared to max, im already using what Erkki posted before (2510 and 48" for extending combat mode to 1h+ ) 

 

You are welcome.

Another trick is to set the throttle to 100% and use the boost lever alone to control manifold-pressure. It will reduce throttling loses in super-charger part of the engine and can add 3km/h to the top speed. The cons are extra workload and it lags a bit.

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yes i noticed that so i was adjusting mp with turbo only to have it 58", trottle at 100% rpm to 2550 and boost on then mix at 100% as i see it gives more speed then on 80% ( 100% mix is good only when bost on, when boost is off then it loses you speed and 80 is better). Was doing 337mphIAS that way for 15min, and when i use same but 64" it goes 349mphIAS for 5min, both at 3000ft.

 

and for example using only combat mode ( 52") without boost for 15min gives 309mphias at 2550rpm ( 301mphias at 2700rpm) at 3000ft. So your tip gives more speed for same time using boost that way.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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I'm wondering, I recall from the Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles video on the P-47 turbo charger that the turbo effectively drains less power from the motor than a geared super charger, and that the effect becomes more noticeable above 20,000ft. It's striking that that also seems to be the altitude that the P-47's ingame performance starts to diverge from the test results.

 

Could the power loss be being modeled using the same profile as gear driven superchargers are? Unless the A-20 used turbos, this may be the only turbo-charged aircraft in the game currently, and would be the only plane impacted by that as yet. A possible indicator would be lower than expected speeds on the P-38, depending on what stage that is at internally. 

 

Let me check to see if the A-20 would have had turbos, because that might be another datapoint. 

 

Addendum: does not look like it did. Sounds like early versions tried to use turbos but had enough problems that they used mechanical super chargers instead. P-47 appears to be the only turbo charged plane in the game right now. 

Edited by Voyager

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On 12/5/2018 at 6:02 AM, 77.CountZero said:

 

in game it can go 438mph at 23000ft, the problem is also short boost time of only 5min, i dont know how this strong engine will fall apart after 5min of use max power when some other engines in game last double or more on max lol

 

and after that first "test run", i dont see ppl playin with p-47s online, like exected, i use it only to have fun on berloga where i can use its full potential as df lasts 5min max :D


I tried to energy fight 109s at 7000m+ and the 5 minute limit is ridiculously short for high altitude dogfights. High altitude maneuvers take forever to complete so by the time I could shoot down 1 109 I was already out of WEP. Shortly after that my engine reduced to 70% power and my plane was completely useless. I find myself better off fighting 109s at 500m rather than where the plane was designed to fly.

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7 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:


I tried to energy fight 109s at 7000m+ and the 5 minute limit is ridiculously short for high altitude dogfights. High altitude maneuvers take forever to complete so by the time I could shoot down 1 109 I was already out of WEP. Shortly after that my engine reduced to 70% power and my plane was completely useless. I find myself better off fighting 109s at 500m rather than where the plane was designed to fly.

 

Yup - speeds are higher thus G-loads are higher and turns take longer. The way to not run of the emergency (5m) time is to switch to combat mode when still on the water-injection. The MP will be 58" maximum; 6" less but much better than no boost at all. Not ideal but workable until this will get changed. (hopefully)

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Also, the problem is that the p-47 seems to lack elevator authority at high speeds (need tests to confirm).

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37 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:


I tried to energy fight 109s at 7000m+ and the 5 minute limit is ridiculously short for high altitude dogfights. High altitude maneuvers take forever to complete so by the time I could shoot down 1 109 I was already out of WEP. Shortly after that my engine reduced to 70% power and my plane was completely useless. I find myself better off fighting 109s at 500m rather than where the plane was designed to fly.

109s are not even particularly bad at 7000m. 109s switched to pretty good high altitude engines since the f4 variant. f2 used to be bad at high altitudes but f4 and g2 are not bad anymore.

 

You got a theoretical advantage of +50 kmh for p47 at 7000m. You can try to acheive a rope dope ONCE during WEP time and that is your chance. But really energy fighting in a 7 ton plane?Pick one: energy fighting or 7 ton plane.

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13 minutes ago, Max_Damage said:

109s are not even particularly bad at 7000m. 109s switched to pretty good high altitude engines since the f4 variant. f2 used to be bad at high altitudes but f4 and g2 are not bad anymore.

 

You got a theoretical advantage of +50 kmh for p47 at 7000m. You can try to acheive a rope dope ONCE during WEP time and that is your chance. But really energy fighting in a 7 ton plane?Pick one: energy fighting or 7 ton plane.

 

k4 can do same speed as 47 at 7km and for 5min longer, 50km advantage only vs g6 or g14, but your fighting vs k4s online most of the time.

 

55 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:


I tried to energy fight 109s at 7000m+ and the 5 minute limit is ridiculously short for high altitude dogfights. High altitude maneuvers take forever to complete so by the time I could shoot down 1 109 I was already out of WEP. Shortly after that my engine reduced to 70% power and my plane was completely useless. I find myself better off fighting 109s at 500m rather than where the plane was designed to fly.

 

yes no point in playing it high mutch, i just play with it on berloga and have fun df for 5 min at low alt, flaps at 100% , 19% fuel, all on max power and it outturns 109s as spit9s :)

Edited by 77.CountZero

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32 minutes ago, Max_Damage said:

109s are not even particularly bad at 7000m. 109s switched to pretty good high altitude engines since the f4 variant. f2 used to be bad at high altitudes but f4 and g2 are not bad anymore.

 

You got a theoretical advantage of +50 kmh for p47 at 7000m. You can try to acheive a rope dope ONCE during WEP time and that is your chance. But really energy fighting in a 7 ton plane?Pick one: energy fighting or 7 ton plane.

 

Why not? For any given altitude the Jug carries twice the potential energy because of the weight. It's only problem if you want make sharp turns; just keep trajectories as straight as possible and turn hard when you are slow like at a top of loop. The turbo helps immensely - superchargers start choking after 5000m; the P-47 will start losing hp 2000m higher.

Still can be difficult and when lower... I remind myself to not go lower.

 

21 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

k4 can do same speed as 47 at 7km and for 5min longer, 50km advantage only vs g6 or g14, but your fighting vs k4s online most of the time.

 

If you are light on fuel (<40%) and loaded 4/6 guns it's usually possible to keep with the enemy at +7000m @ 58" (counts as a combat mode and in practice limited by water supply, only). At least to slower the closure rate and make the 109 to use up few minutes of the emergency boost before switching to the emergency yourself.

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9 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Why not? For any given altitude the Jug carries twice the potential energy because of the weight. It's only problem if you want make sharp turns; just keep trajectories as straight as possible and turn hard when you are slow like at a top of loop. The turbo helps immensely - superchargers start choking after 5000m; the P-47 will start losing hp 2000m higher.

Still can be difficult and when lower... I remind myself to not go lower.

 

 

If you are light on fuel (<40%) and loaded 4/6 guns it's usually possible to keep with the enemy at +7000m @ 58" (counts as a combat mode and in practice limited by water supply, only). At least to slower the closure rate and make the 109 to use up few minutes of the emergency boost before switching to the emergency yourself.

Just how much potential energy does that b17 have. Which doesnt make it a good fighter lols.

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2 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

Also, the problem is that the p-47 seems to lack elevator authority at high speeds (need tests to confirm).

This is one thing I've notice as well. It's high speed maneuverability is lacking imo. Ilr it was good at high speed maneuvering but in game even a 109 can beat it, especially in a dive.

P-47 did suffer from stiffening the faster it went but there is no way it should have less elevator authority than a 109 or even 190.

 

Gonna do more research on the subject but the high speed control authority on the P-47 is lacking compared to rl imo.

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1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

Why not? For any given altitude the Jug carries twice the potential energy because of the weight. It's only problem if you want make sharp turns; just keep trajectories as straight as possible and turn hard when you are slow like at a top of loop. The turbo helps immensely - superchargers start choking after 5000m; the P-47 will start losing hp 2000m higher.

Still can be difficult and when lower... I remind myself to not go lower.

 

 

If you are light on fuel (<40%) and loaded 4/6 guns it's usually possible to keep with the enemy at +7000m @ 58" (counts as a combat mode and in practice limited by water supply, only). At least to slower the closure rate and make the 109 to use up few minutes of the emergency boost before switching to the emergency yourself.

k4 on combat mod can match 47 on 58" i top speed, so he again have longer time to fly as fast as you up high, after patch made airplanes stronger i need 8 .50s  :)

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9 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

This is one thing I've notice as well. It's high speed maneuverability is lacking imo. Ilr it was good at high speed maneuvering but in game even a 109 can beat it, especially in a dive.

P-47 did suffer from stiffening the faster it went but there is no way it should have less elevator authority than a 109 or even 190.

 

Gonna do more research on the subject but the high speed control authority on the P-47 is lacking compared to rl imo.

 

Do we know if compressability is currently modelled on all the aircraft, and what mach numbers the devs used for each? 

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1 minute ago, Voyager said:

 

Do we know if compressability is currently modelled on all the aircraft, and what mach numbers the devs used for each? 

Not sure, but I'm curious if they account for the change in critical mach with altitude? The P-47 had a critical mach of around .75 iirc, some reports say higher some say lower.

 

One thing I do know is that compressibility doesn't seem to be fully modeled. Mach tuck, control reversals, etc all seem to be lacking currently (or I just haven't noticed.)

 

Another problem is the control loss in dives, P-47 shouldn't lose surfaces in dives like it does in-game.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Not sure, but I'm curious if they account for the change in critical mach with altitude? The P-47 had a critical mach of around .75 iirc, some reports say higher some say lower.

 

One thing I do know is that compressibility doesn't seem to be fully modeled. Mach tuck, control reversals, etc all seem to be lacking currently (or I just haven't noticed.)

 

Another problem is the control loss in dives, P-47 shouldn't lose surfaces in dives like it does in-game.

 

 

 

Was more wondering if the 109 has it modelled and what critical mach it has currently? 

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22 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Not sure, but I'm curious if they account for the change in critical mach with altitude? The P-47 had a critical mach of around .75 iirc, some reports say higher some say lower.

 

One thing I do know is that compressibility doesn't seem to be fully modeled. Mach tuck, control reversals, etc all seem to be lacking currently (or I just haven't noticed.)

 

Another problem is the control loss in dives, P-47 shouldn't lose surfaces in dives like it does in-game.

 

 

 

 

i also dont see any aleron rverals, also compresability nouse down is so minimal in all airplanes that you can get out of it with positive trim or stab in most cases, in 3.008 at ~4500ft in dive from 33000ft i was doing 585mph (940kmh) when i started losing alerons, how can we know that airplane would not lose alerons or other control services at that high speeds, did they even tested them that fast in real.

 

for k4 it was losing alerons at around same speed of 940kmh but at around 1km in dive from 10km, it doesent pick up speed in dive as fast as 47.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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55 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

k4 on combat mod can match 47 on 58" i top speed, so he again have longer time to fly as fast as you up high, after patch made airplanes stronger i need 8 .50s  :)

 

That's enough because the enemy will want a gun solution and fast. At the emergency the K4 will be quicker but not by much at 7km alt - about 11-12km/h if you set the P-47 right. (checked at 50% fuel for both, no mods for both) The following K4 will take 5 minutes to decrease the distance by 1000m.

 

2 hours ago, Max_Damage said:

Just how much potential energy does that b17 have. Which doesnt make it a good fighter lols.

 

A fallacious argument. The B-17 has about 4 times (weight, drag, wing area) everything but only 2 times engine power than the Thunderbolt. However... if someone would put R-2800s instead of Wrights R-1820, reduced crew just to one and throw away all the unnecessary stuff then... who knows. ;)

Edited by Ehret

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and who is flying k4 without 1.98 mode? no one, devs made it, servers that have bobp airplanes alow it with no limits, so who in right mined on axis side would not take it,

your doing 465kmh ias on 58" at 7km in 47, and 1.98 k4 is doing 490kmhias+ on emergancy for 10min, and then matching your speed on combat while hes recharging for next 10min. 

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

i also dont see any aleron rverals, also compresability nouse down is so minimal in all airplanes that you can get out of it with positive trim or stab in most cases, in 3.008 at ~4500ft in dive from 33000ft i was doing 585mph (940kmh) when i started losing alerons, how can we know that airplane would not lose alerons or other control services at that high speeds, did they even tested them that fast in real.

 

for k4 it was losing alerons at around same speed of 940kmh but at around 1km in dive from 10km, it doesent pick up speed in dive as fast as 47.

 

P-47 looses ailerons at around 540-560 mph in reality it never lost ailerons at these speeds, it could dive up to 600mph+ (IAS) without losing ailerons.

Currently the 109 dives faster and loses controls at a higher speed than the P-47, this limits the real life advantage of the P-47 in a dive.

 

From my experience the 109 has better high speed authority than the P-47, this shouldn't be and is unrealistic. (keep in mind I havent flown the 109 K4 that much)

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

and who is flying k4 without 1.98 mode? no one, devs made it, servers that have bobp airplanes alow it with no limits, so who in right mined on axis side would not take it,

your doing 465kmh ias on 58" at 7km in 47, and 1.98 k4 is doing 490kmhias+ on emergancy for 10min, and then matching your speed on combat while hes recharging for next 10min. 

 

No - I can do up to 475km/h no mods, 50% fuel load, P-47D at 7km Kuban autumn map, combat power. Set inter-cooler to 50%, 0% for both rads, throttle to 100%, MP 58" by control by the boost lever only, 2520rpm, water injection on and mixture to 100%. It will be counted as "a combat mode" thus will last for the whole 15m and will not reduce the 5m timer of the emergency mode at all.

Even if you run at 465km/h it will take +2.3m to close distance of 1000m for the K4. Less than 4.5km of initial separation is needed to rob the enemy of full 10m of emergency power. After that you will have still +5m of water supply left and 5m of fresh emergency timer.

 

20 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Currently the 109 dives faster and loses controls at a higher speed than the P-47, this limits the real life advantage of the P-47 in a dive.

 

Have you tried the elevator trim tab to increase pull-up when hard diving in the P-47?

Inconvenient but helped me recover few times already.

Edited by Ehret
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2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Not sure, but I'm curious if they account for the change in critical mach with altitude? The P-47 had a critical mach of around .75 iirc, some reports say higher some say lower.

 

One thing I do know is that compressibility doesn't seem to be fully modeled. Mach tuck, control reversals, etc all seem to be lacking currently (or I just haven't noticed.)

 

Another problem is the control loss in dives, P-47 shouldn't lose surfaces in dives like it does in-game.

 

 

 

 

The thing is that is almost not possible blacking out the p47 in the game while that was a common occurrence if not careful when dive bombing. There is a good NACA test posted elsewhere where point out that 6g was something achievable without superstrengh (didn´t have light elevator either).

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1 hour ago, Ehret said:

Have you tried the elevator trim tab to increase pull-up when hard diving in the P-47?

Inconvenient but helped me recover few times already.

 

Yep. I'm not really talking about recovery but about maximum dive speed before structural loss, irl the P-47 never suffered from structural failure in high speed dives.

 

23 minutes ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

The thing is that is almost not possible blacking out the p47 in the game while that was a common occurrence if not careful when dive bombing. There is a good NACA test posted elsewhere where point out that 6g was something achievable without superstrengh (didn´t have light elevator either).

 

6-7g was completely possible irl but it doesn't seem that way in game. P-47 had good elevator authority and that helped in high speed dives/maneuvers.

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7 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

No - I can do up to 475km/h no mods, 50% fuel load, P-47D at 7km Kuban autumn map, combat power. Set inter-cooler to 50%, 0% for both rads, throttle to 100%, MP 58" by control by the boost lever only, 2520rpm, water injection on and mixture to 100%. It will be counted as "a combat mode" thus will last for the whole 15m and will not reduce the 5m timer of the emergency mode at all.

Even if you run at 465km/h it will take +2.3m to close distance of 1000m for the K4. Less than 4.5km of initial separation is needed to rob the enemy of full 10m of emergency power. After that you will have still +5m of water supply left and 5m of fresh emergency timer.

 

 

Have you tried the elevator trim tab to increase pull-up when hard diving in the P-47?

Inconvenient but helped me recover few times already.

 

i was using same settings as you but 2700rpm as on high alt that one was beter on max power, so when i try 2520 it go 475kmh like you did.

On that rpm i can go more % on turbo to keep it at 58" so i guess then its faster, good to know.

8 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

P-47 looses ailerons at around 540-560 mph in reality it never lost ailerons at these speeds, it could dive up to 600mph+ (IAS) without losing ailerons.

Currently the 109 dives faster and loses controls at a higher speed than the P-47, this limits the real life advantage of the P-47 in a dive.

 

From my experience the 109 has better high speed authority than the P-47, this shouldn't be and is unrealistic. (keep in mind I havent flown the 109 K4 that much)

did you test dive in new patch, was losing alerons in 3.007 at 560, now its around 580mph. The game just models on all airplanes to start losing alerons after they get around that max dive from manuals + 100kmh. From what i see in 3.008 p47 accelarates faster and loses parts at same speed as k4 in dive at around 940kmh, in 3007 was differant, 47 lost alerons at around 900 and k4 at 940.

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11 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

i was using same settings as you but 2700rpm as on high alt that one was beter on max power, so when i try 2520 it go 475kmh like you did.

On that rpm i can go more % on turbo to keep it at 58" so i guess then its faster, good to know.

did you test dive in new patch, was losing alerons in 3.007 at 560, now its around 580mph. The game just models on all airplanes to start losing alerons after they get around that max dive from manuals + 100kmh. From what i see in 3.008 p47 accelarates faster and loses parts at same speed as k4 in dive at around 940kmh, in 3007 was differant, 47 lost alerons at around 900 and k4 at 940.

I'll have to do some test for the new patch, I didn't think they changed anything to the FM with this patch. Either way if it's still losing ailerons it's not historically accurate.

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I have been seeing a lot of posts stating the P-47D in BoX has unrealistically poor elevator authority above ~400 IAS.  I have read America's Hundred Thousand and pilots rated it's maneuverability from "fair to poor" and that controls became heavier at higher speeds.  I have read P-47D flight reports stating that, Acceleration in a dive is fast with control forces building up and becoming high above 350 MPH indicated.

 

I do find the P-47D is quite responsive in roll and turn up until about 380 MPH IAS.  What am I missing here, it matches well with what I have read?

Edited by ICDP
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10 minutes ago, ICDP said:

I have been seeing a lot of posts stating the P-47D in BoX has unrealistically poor elevator authority above ~400 IAS.  I have read America's Hundred Thousand and pilots rated it's maneuverability from "fair to poor" and that controls became heavier at higher speeds.  I have read P-47D flight reports stating that, Acceleration in a dive is fast with control forces building up and becoming high above 350 MPH indicated.

 

I do find the P-47D is quite responsive in roll and turn up until about 380 MPH IAS.  What am I missing here, it matches well with what I have read?

 

Depending where you read.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html

"Flying Characteristics

13.            All pilots have commented on the ease with which the P-47 can be flown and its well-balance crisp controls. In particular, the ailerons are so good the pilots found it very manoeuvrable and were not conscious of flying a heavy aircraft with a comparatively high wing loading".

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-8thaf-tactical.html

3.    Flying Characteristics.

                   a.    The airplane is easy to fly so far as landings and take-offs are concerned. It has beautiful aileron control, good elevator control, but very stiff rudder.

 

There is an specific test done by NACA about forces per G at different speeds and CoG. What it says is that 6g (avg for blacking out) can be achievable without super strength. Also reading from pilots experiences, blacking out  when coming out of a bombing run dive was relatively common if not careful. In the game, currently, only specific combination of trim (and sometimes flap) can take you to this (in the NACA test doesn't mention special trim, if anything I think is trim for the speed but jut talking off of my head now). Obviously, some test need to be done to confirm or deny this feeling but is not easy to perform as we don't have G meters in the sim (at least not that I am aware of. Tacview being unreliable on this in the sim).

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20 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

P-47 looses ailerons at around 540-560 mph in reality it never lost ailerons at these speeds, it could dive up to 600mph+ (IAS) without losing ailerons.

Currently the 109 dives faster and loses controls at a higher speed than the P-47, this limits the real life advantage of the P-47 in a dive.

 

From my experience the 109 has better high speed authority than the P-47, this shouldn't be and is unrealistic. (keep in mind I havent flown the 109 K4 that much)

 

I genuinely cannot fathom how you would claim a P-47D has worse high speed control authority than a 109K.  I find the P-47D to have better control authority from around 300mph right up to max dive speed.  Admittedly at close to VNE both aircraft are very poor but sorry at medium to high speeds the P-47 varies from noticeably to marginally better but never worse than a 109-K4.

 

As for losing ailerons, every plane in the sim does this at some point.  The P-47D's advantage in a dive was more about the fact it was heavier and would eventually accelerate faster but I have seen nothing historically state it was because the Bf109 would break up sooner.  Here report that contains a dive test of a P-47D against an Fw190A.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf

 

Both planes enter a dive from cruise speeds at 10,000ft.  The 190 initially left the P-47D behind and it took the P-47D until 3,000ft (7,000ft of altitude) to catch and overtake the 190.  Now change that to a 109-K4 which has ~1800-2000HP and is half the weight of a P-47D, so it has considerably better power loading.  So if both fighters enter a dive at typical combat speeds the 109-K4 will actually have the initial dive advantage.

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3 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

I genuinely cannot fathom how you would claim a P-47D has worse high speed control authority than a 109K.  I find the P-47D to have better control authority from around 300mph right up to max dive speed.  Admittedly at close to VNE both aircraft are very poor but sorry at medium to high speeds the P-47 varies from noticeably to marginally better but never worse than a 109-K4.

 

As for losing ailerons, every plane in the sim does this at some point.  The P-47D's advantage in a dive was more about the fact it was heavier and would eventually accelerate faster but I have seen nothing historically state it was because the Bf109 would break up sooner.  Here report that contains a dive test of a P-47D against an Fw190A.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf

 

Both planes enter a dive from cruise speeds at 10,000ft.  The 190 initially left the P-47D behind and it took the P-47D until 3,000ft (7,000ft of altitude) to catch and overtake the 190.  Now change that to a 109-K4 which has ~1800-2000HP and is half the weight of a P-47D, so it has considerably better power loading.  So if both fighters enter a dive at typical combat speeds the 109-K4 will actually have the initial dive advantage.

Just my experience with the two aircraft is all. I've never been able to pull enough g to black out the pilot at high speeds in the P-47 unless I use flaps. Ilr the P-47 had little trouble pulling high Gs.

 

In regards to dive, I'm not saying that the K4 should break up sooner, I'm just saying the P-47 shouldn't really break up at all in a dive, it never happened historically even at dives upwards of 600 mph.

 

It needs more testing but overall the elevator authority of the P-47s seems to be lacking.

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34 minutes ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

Depending where you read.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html

"Flying Characteristics

13.            All pilots have commented on the ease with which the P-47 can be flown and its well-balance crisp controls. In particular, the ailerons are so good the pilots found it very manoeuvrable and were not conscious of flying a heavy aircraft with a comparatively high wing loading".

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-8thaf-tactical.html

3.    Flying Characteristics.

                   a.    The airplane is easy to fly so far as landings and take-offs are concerned. It has beautiful aileron control, good elevator control, but very stiff rudder.

 

There is an specific test done by NACA about forces per G at different speeds and CoG. What it says is that 6g (avg for blacking out) can be achievable without super strength. Also reading from pilots experiences, blacking out  when coming out of a bombing run dive was relatively common if not careful. In the game, currently, only specific combination of trim (and sometimes flap) can take you to this (in the NACA test doesn't mention special trim, if anything I think is trim for the speed but jut talking off of my head now). Obviously, some test need to be done to confirm or deny this feeling but is not easy to perform as we don't have G meters in the sim (at least not that I am aware of. Tacview being unreliable on this in the sim).

 

Apologies, I should remind you that I was specifically referring to high speeds, not normal combat speeds where the P-47 in BoX does indeed have excellent control authority in all axis.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Just my experience with the two aircraft is all. I've never been able to pull enough g to black out the pilot at high speeds in the P-47 unless I use flaps. Ilr the P-47 had little trouble pulling high Gs.

 

In regards to dive, I'm not saying that the K4 should break up sooner, I'm just saying the P-47 shouldn't really break up at all in a dive, it never happened historically even at dives upwards of 600 mph.

 

It needs more testing but overall the elevator authority of the P-47s seems to be lacking.

 

My experience if the two aircraft is different then, because the P-47 has superior high speed control authority at high combat speeds (~350 - 400mph IAS)

 

The point I am making re diving is that there is nothing historically accurate about the 109 having controls flying off either.  So it is a pointless argument that proves nothing.  It would be better to do a repeatable dive test to find how long it takes for both aircraft to accelerate to VNE.  For example start at 10,000m and dive straight down until 750kph is reached, time both aircraft and compare.

 

It doesn't need more testing, it needs definitive proof that can be presented to the devs.  Until that proof is provided, all the testing of elevator authority in game proves is that it is accurate based on the current data the developers are using to model the P-47D.

Edited by ICDP

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10 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

I should remind you that I was specifically referring to high speeds, not normal combat speeds where the P-47 in BoX does indeed have excellent control authority in all axis.

 

My experience if the two aircraft is different then, because the P-47 has superior high speed control authority at high combat speeds (~350 - 400mph IAS)

 

The point I am making re diving is that there is nothing historically accurate about the 109 having controls flying off either.  So it is a pointless argument that proves nothing.  It would be better to do a dive test to find how long it takes for both aircraft to accelerate to VNE.

 

It doesn't need more testing, it needs definitive proof that can be presented to the devs.  Until that proof is provided, all the testing of elevator authority in game proves is that it is accurate based on the current data the developers are using to model the P-47D.

Never said 109s controls should fall off. Until compressability is fully modeled we'll never have an accurate simulation of dive performance.

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54 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

Apologies, I should remind you that I was specifically referring to high speeds, not normal combat speeds where the P-47 in BoX does indeed have excellent control authority in all axis.

 

 

The tests I mentioned didn't specify the speeds. But in any case that's why i added the specific test done by NACA about manoeuvrability of a P-47D-30. Is this one:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/Naca_TN_2899__F-47D-30_Flight_Test.pdf

It indicates that the force per G depend on Cog. But, for instance, 6g (avg for black out) at 6250ft at 350mph it could achieve 6g (avg for black out) with a total force in pound ranging from 39 to 66lb of force (for the 6g). That is something that an average pilot could do even if needed to be two handed. In the test they even mentioned that in specific conditions were dangerously low:

"At the rearward center-of-gravity position tested} 29 percent of the mean aerodynamic chord} the stick-force gradient varied from 2 to 7 pounds per g (fig. 23(a)). At 200 mph, elevator-force reversal occurred in both left and right turns. At high altitude, push forces were required with increaning acceleration at 200 mph in both left and right turns and in left turns at 250 mph. (See fig. 23(b).) At the higher speeds at high altitude, the curves of force against acceleration show that pull forces were required but that these forces were dangerously low."

 

There is no way to compare this in the game but we mentioned this because at least there is one thing you can achieve and is blacking out. In the game I can't black out at those speeds unless using heavy tail trim and some degree of flaps. I can't say how it should be because we lack that type of information in the sim (Gs meter and stick force meteter). But, although will require some testing to confirm (we could be missing something or interpreting this information wrongly), it seems that the plane can't achieve part of its flight envelope. I am not complaining about slower speed manoeuvrability, if anything, it seems too good with flaps deployed (or at least it was in the previous version).

At

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8 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Never said 109s controls should fall off. Until compressability is fully modeled we'll never have an accurate simulation of dive performance.

 

Your post below stated quite clearly that in BoX the P-47 loses control surfaces sooner than the 109 and that the P-47 should not lose control surfaces at all.  That can be read as P-47D should not lose controls and the Bf109 should lose them sooner.  Diving until controls come off in game proves nothing, because it is a game limitation that applies to all aircraft sooner or later.

 

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:39 AM, Legioneod said:

 

P-47 looses ailerons at around 540-560 mph in reality it never lost ailerons at these speeds, it could dive up to 600mph+ (IAS) without losing ailerons.

Currently the 109 dives faster and loses controls at a higher speed than the P-47, this limits the real life advantage of the P-47 in a dive.

 

Had you said neither aircraft should lose their controls then your point wouldn't look so biased.  I am not claiming you are biased, I am saying your post can be interpreted that way.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

The tests I mentioned didn't specify the speeds. But in any case that's why i added the specific test done by NACA about manoeuvrability of a P-47D-30. Is this one:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/Naca_TN_2899__F-47D-30_Flight_Test.pdf

It indicates that the force per G depend on Cog. But, for instance, 6g (avg for black out) at 6250ft at 350mph it could achieve 6g (avg for black out) with a total force in pound ranging from 39 to 66lb of force (for the 6g). That is something that an average pilot could do even if needed to be two handed. In the test they even mentioned that in specific conditions were dangerously low:

"At the rearward center-of-gravity position tested} 29 percent of the mean aerodynamic chord} the stick-force gradient varied from 2 to 7 pounds per g (fig. 23(a)). At 200 mph, elevator-force reversal occurred in both left and right turns. At high altitude, push forces were required with increaning acceleration at 200 mph in both left and right turns and in left turns at 250 mph. (See fig. 23(b).) At the higher speeds at high altitude, the curves of force against acceleration show that pull forces were required but that these forces were dangerously low."

 

There is no way to compare this in the game but we mentioned this because at least there is one thing you can achieve and is blacking out. In the game I can't black out at those speeds unless using heavy tail trim and some degree of flaps. I can't say how it should be because we lack that type of information in the sim (Gs meter and stick force meteter). But, although will require some testing to confirm (we could be missing something or interpreting this information wrongly), it seems that the plane can't achieve part of its flight envelope. I am not complaining about slower speed manoeuvrability, if anything, it seems too good with flaps deployed (or at least it was in the previous version).

At

 

I have read that report, and to be honest at 350MPH IAS the P-47D in BoX feels very controllable.  I have not tested if I can blackout at those speeds but I will.  This is the kind of info we should be using to test in game and reporting back to the devs if there are discrepancies in game.

 

I can understand the frustration but having rants without empirical evidence to back them up is not going to get us anywhere in my experience.

Edited by ICDP

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