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You really need to do something about extraterrestrial gunners


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4 minutes ago, Mauf said:

I do not find the Pe2 gunners to be significantly more annoying than the german ones. All of them are annoyingly accurate snipers, level of annoyance dictated by the caliber of the gun.

 

Agree completely.  Fact of the matter is all a.i. gunners in all cfs games are Lee Harvey-Oswald.

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Speed is the big difference. 

 

The speed of the attacking aircraft compared to the peshka is very often not big enough. That's one of the reasons why the E-7 has such a difficult time against it and why the 111, IL-2 and Ju-88 are less dangerous (even though the Ju-88 is quite fast as well). The 110 is surprisingly good against peshkas despite that for some reason.

 

The Peshka is especially annoying because of the 109 being very fragile to even the slightest AP damage. 

 

Freak accidents can happen against every rear gunner. There is always a risk involved that you won't survive it, especially because rear gunners know where you are and where you are coming from even if you aren't in their field of view. I remember several pilots getting killed that way on TAW ending 50+ kill streaks. I got pilot killed by a Stuka for example despite near perfect approach. Among those pilots there is a simple saying that it is a question of when and not if you are going to die by some bullshit happening to you.

 

 

Edited by Operation_Ivy
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After reading this thread and applying my Luftaboo filter to it, I think it's fair to say that the following would be welcome enhancements to all:

1) Restrict gunner FOV to realistic limits so that they can't see 360 degrees and predict where you are going to be when you enter their gunnery arc before you know it yourself.

2) It would be nice if Pilot AI level and Gunner AI could be set separately so that you could have average gunners, but good pilots, or whatever

 

Since it's about gunnery, if not strictly related to AI behavior, here's a personal peave.  Another thing that has annoyed me since the day I first saw it in RoF was this Aiming Cue thing available for human gunners.  It eliminates any need for gunners to nestle their head to the virtual gunsight.  That means that on pintle-mounted weapons, the gunner can know exactly where his gun is pointing even when it is swivelled into a position that would make it impossible to actually look down the gunsight.  That's why they invented Turrets, afterall!  In these situations, the gunner would be "shooting from the hip" so to speak, but with the Gamey Death Dot available to him, that is no longer an issue.  I wish the developers would at least make this a difficulty option which allows servers to turn it off.  I've always felt that it's universal availability led to a lot of unrealistic accuracy on the part of human gunners, and encouraged simulataneous man -the -gun -as -you -fly airquake style behaviors.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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6 hours ago, ITAF_Cymao said:

You won the Oscar of the most unlucky pilot in the universe.
Killed from the front 20mm of an H111, but everyone knows that the safest place to shoot at an H111 is to stay at his six.

 

S!

 

Lol. You must be the only person in your squad with experience shooting at a He111...

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I'd like to add something else.

 

I 'feel' that the gunners are just as accurate at predicting the flight path of a fighter during angled attacks (or flying offset) as they are for clowns flying in dead 6.

 

That type of attack I think would be much harder to calculate the required lead for a human in a short timeframe, yet AI has it correct immediately. Only changing flight path regularly avoids being hit.

 

I feel the gunners survivability in some planes is rather questionable as is their ability to aim accurately under fire and when the plane they are sitting in is taking evasive action.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire
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Recently I tried gunning myself in a bf110, while a buddy of mine was flying it. One thing I noticed was my complete inability to hit our pursuer (a MiG) whenever our 110 did a maneuver. Even slight maneuvers threw off my aim completely for ~2 seconds, until I could readjust to the maneuvering. Problem was, my buddy was throwing a new input every second (negative G, sideslip, turn, ...), and didn't do "steady maneuvers" and as such I could never aim even close to our pursuer because I was constantly adjusting for previous maneuvers. I actually managed to shoot our rudder and fuselage because of the hard maneuvers, but didn't come close to the MiG

 

Conclusion : gunners are too accurate under maneuvering situations. ALL GUNNERS. We only notice it most with peshka, since it combines speed (you 're longer in 6, with flatter trajectory), lethality of the 12.7mm, durability, and its ability to jostle plane around which makes hitting it harder, while gunners aim doesn't seem to be too much thrown off.

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The problem about gunners is, that you can really exploit it with the Peshka.

While all other ground attackers / bombers are still rather easy to kill (not saying that accidents don't happen at all, as they occurred in real life), the Peshka is a wonder weapon even for the rookie-est of pilots, especially in 1941-1942 scenarios with no 190 or heavier weapons. Everything Pe2 pilots have to do is to put the nose down and fly away as fast as possible, the plane does the rest for you. In more cases then not they will shoot down the attacking fighter while being able to get home more or less unscathed. This also happens when a very experienced 109 pilot is attacking a Pe2 pilot with no skill what so ever, so it causes quite a disbalance. A disbalance in plane choice, because all Russian players jump on the Peshka, while next to no one takes an IL-2 (as can be seen in TaW), while it was the other way round in real life. It also leads to a lot more Russians jumping on ground attacker/bombers then Germans, because it's rather easy to "rack up points" and survive in a Peshka and get some additional airkills on the way, while it's more on the frustrating side flying a German bomber/ground attacker and not getting home in most cases, when you meet a single enemy fighter. What follows are some populist standard accusations like "the German wannabe Hartmanns, no one wants to do the dirty work there" and "the hard-working Russian ground attackers" which is absolutely absurd. It's just a lot more frustrating to fly German bombers then the Pe2. Now I would be fine if the Peshka had some reputation about being the uber-dangerous deathstar being a lot more dangerous then German bombers (like the B-17 for example), but that's just not the case. Quite the contrary, most German memoires tell about the IL2 (later ones with gunners) being the more durable and dangerous plane of the two. 

 

K/D ratios in 1941 of 12:1 to 20:1 in favour of the Germans would have never been possible, if the Peshka would have been even close to what it is in the game. You must remember that the average German pilot by that time also had a lot less flight and battle time then the average sim gamer, which surely wouldn't help the quality of their attacks. 

 

The overperforming AP ammunition I the game surely also plays a part in the dangerousness of the Pe2.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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1 hour ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 


K/D ratios in 1941 of 12:1 to 20:1 in favour of the Germans would have never been possible, if the Peshka would have been even close to what it is in the game.

 

Pe-2s were a tiny part of the Soviet bomber inventory in 1941 - the vast majority of which were obsolete planes. Also true for their single-seaters.  As for the loss ratio for the eastern front in 1941: overall something like 4 or 5:1 is closer to the truth. 

 

Anyway, trying to draw inferences about real plane performance from how people play them in MP is invalid in principle.


There are some specific things about the way AI gunners behave that could and should be made more realistic. I would say, however, be careful what you wish for.  Changes sometimes have unintended consequences.

 

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10 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Anyway, trying to draw inferences about real plane performance from how people play them in MP is invalid in principle.


There are some specific things about the way AI gunners behave that could and should be made more realistic. I would say, however, be careful what you wish for.  Changes sometimes have unintended consequences.

 

Well, I agree with your first sentence, but I think we can both agree that it's not realistic how the gunners behave (1), and it's not realistic how dangerous the Pe2 is against German fighters (2). 1 and 2 are probably enhanced by the way too effective AP ammunition (3), which hasn't still been fixed. This leads to a disbalance in gameplay. Now if a disbalance in gameplay would be caused by historical/realistic reasons, I think everyone (at least everyone who takes it serious and not gamey) would be fine with it, but if an artificial/made up "feature" is causing disbalance, it leads to many players feeling disadvantaged and frustrated. In this case, something should be changed (other examples have been Yak flaps and borked 190, just to name two). 

About your second sentence, I can't think how it could become worse then now. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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No I do not agree that Pe-2s are unrealistically dangerous. Playing Career for the Germans I have shot down loads of them and hardly ever been hit. As long as you stay out of the rear quarter arc, do not fly straight and do not get too close they have a hard time hitting.  The problem is, as others have pointed out and probably everyone has experienced by now, that it is easy to underestimate the Pe-2's speed and get stuck behind it. If that happens you must get away immediately. People get shot down because they are greedy.

 

This happened to actual German pilots too - there is an account in one of the Bergmann books IIRC. Will try to find when it is light.

 

 

 

 

Edited by unreasonable
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11 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

No I do not agree that Pe-2s are unrealistically dangerous. Playing Career for the Germans I have shot down loads of them and hardly ever been hit. As long as you stay out of the rear quarter arc, do not fly straight and do not get too close they have a hard time hitting.  The problem is, as others have pointed out and probably everyone has experienced by now, that it is easy to underestimate the Pe-2's speed and get stuck behind it. If that happens you must get away immediately. People get shot down because they are greedy.

 

This happened to actual German pilots too - there is an account in one of the Bergmann books IIRC. Will try to find when it is light.

 

 

Sorry, but you shouldn't count in single player at all. SP bombers are very easy to shoot down, without exception. They are not flying very fast, they don't use many of their advantages, the gunners start shooting only when you are very close to the aircraft, the aircraft are flying high so you can do nicely angled diving attacks, and once you shot an engine smoking, it's almost always a kill (while it never ever is in multiplayer). You can intercept their flight path very easy as well.
 

I have no problems shooting down 6 He111 in one single sortie in my P40 career. I even attack them from dead 6, co-alt co-speed, ripping up one after the next (on Ace difficulty, mind you). Yet i' never do that online, it's a no contest. Sorry, but you have to witness it online against real players, to see how it really is. Attacking bombers offline is as representative as doing a fight against AI fighters - you will win knife fights against an Ace Yak in a 190.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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12 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Sorry, but you shouldn't count in single player at all. SP bombers are very easy to shoot down, without exception. They are not flying very fast, they don't use many of their advantages, the gunners start shooting only when you are very close to the aircraft, the aircraft are flying high so you can do nicely angled diving attacks, and once you shot an engine smoking, it's almost always a kill (while it never ever is in multiplayer). You can intercept their flight path very easy as well.
 

I have no problems shooting down 6 He111 in one single sortie in my P40 career. I even attack them from dead 6, co-alt co-speed, ripping up one after the next (on Ace difficulty, mind you). Yet i' never do that online, it's a no contest. Sorry, but you have to witness it online against real players, to see how it really is. Attacking bombers offline is as representative as doing a fight against AI fighters - you will win knife fights against an Ace Yak in a 190.

 

I have played online, including both attacking and escorting Pe-2s.  There is little difference, except for all the issues of lag: except that offline you are more likely to be attacking several planes in formation instead of only one.

 

Go back a while in this forum and it was full of complaints about people being one shot by Pe-s while flying offline. You do not see that much now because people have learned what not to do while attacking them.  If you do not have the speed and angle to intercept the Pe-2 and make a good attack then do not attack it: it is a simple as that.

 

The most important thing is that the gunner AI is exactly the same online as off, depending on the AI setting in the server or mission. 

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47 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

No I do not agree that Pe-2s are unrealistically dangerous. Playing Career for the Germans I have shot down loads of them and hardly ever been hit. As long as you stay out of the rear quarter arc, do not fly straight and do not get too close they have a hard time hitting.  The problem is, as others have pointed out and probably everyone has experienced by now, that it is easy to underestimate the Pe-2's speed and get stuck behind it. If that happens you must get away immediately. People get shot down because they are greedy.

 

This happened to actual German pilots too - there is an account in one of the Bergmann books IIRC. Will try to find when it is light.

 

All gunners are about equally worthless when they are set to the lowest difficulty. In multiplay, in great part thanks to the superhuman gunners, Pe-2 is pretty much a better fighter than I-16 or heck in many ways better than P-40 even. You can attack Pe-2 head-on, tear off its wing and the gunner often still hits from the spiralling plane you as you pass by at 1000 km/h of relative speed. Multiple human Pe-2s just arent worth engaging longer than one pass from ahead and even that is risky.

 

I do not think it is very realistic or historical to expect a relatively small and lightly armed medium bomber to score anywhere near 1:1 against fighters, them attacking from dead six(like RAF fighters in BoB) or not. Or 1:2, or 1:3. You dont expect that from He 111, Ju 88 or G4M(that has rear gunner with a cannon) or say B-25, B-26 or any other medium bomber either, do you. Many of those much heavier armed than Pe-2. Even massive formations of 8th AF heavies cruising in combat box at 8000 m failed to achieve loss parity against(much fewer in numbers, rookie piloted and often already engaged by escorts) 109s and 190s.

 

I know this looks like some people moaning on the same subject again and again but to us it feels like many either choose to ignore this for reason or another, or even seem play a different game. Or actually expect gunners to be that lethal. I do think that flying bombers should be in many ways rewarding (instead of being just targets for fighters), but op gunners arent the way. That said I do not think the current state is by design of the devs or WAD.

 

edit: I should also mention that I'm already okay if the gunners dont get fixed. I still like Il-2 a lot. I have learned to simply avoid the Pe-2 is most situations so hopefully no more gunner induced gray hair to me.

Edited by LeLv76_Erkki
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9 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

I have played online, including both attacking and escorting Pe-2s.  There is little difference, except for all the issues of lag: except that offline you are more likely to be attacking several planes in formation instead of only one.

 

Go back a while in this forum and it was full of complaints about people being one shot by Pe-s while flying offline. You do not see that much now because people have learned what not to do while attacking them.  If you do not have the speed and angle to intercept the Pe-2 and make a good attack then do not attack it: it is a simple as that.

 

The most important thing is that the gunner AI is exactly the same online as off, depending on the AI setting in the server or mission. 

 

Gunners have noticeably changed since the last update. Maybe when you played online, the Pe2s have been set to rookie as well. In TaW people in a Pe2 just full throttle away from you at deck, there is no way in such a situation to not be at their six eventually, and even the smallest of windows is enough to toast your engine. Current state is, that people are entirely stopping to attack Pe2s in fighters. "Best practice" in TaW is to just attack Pe2s with a 110. You can check the stats of the highest scoring TaW fighters, you'll almost never see a Pe2 in the list (unless them being in a 110). Do you really think this was the case in real life? Even close to reality? The Pe2 having a better then 1:1 k/d ratio?

Well, when I jump into the German career, the Pe2 is a lot lot easier (no contest), to kill, compared to people flying it in TaW. Even in their formations...

 

But I guess as long as you don't see people exploiting it against you first hand, you'll not be able to understand it. It's the case of Yak flaps all over again. Where many people fought against people wanting the flaps to be changed, because they "never experienced it themselves"...when only flying Russians and expoiting it on their own, or only flying against bots who don't exploit it.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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What I would try to address:

High angle off deflection shots;

Inhuman reflexes - passing just fraction of second in the Gunner sight and get hit;

Wings off , on fire , going down but still aiming and shot ;

Wounded but trying to aiming;

Missing dead six straight line shots.

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If you (Manu, Erkki and others)  think the level of the AI gunners in MP is a problem, lobby the server administrators to modify their mission design to reduce the level. The developers gave a wide range to the AI gunners - both air and AAA - presumably to allow for some game balancing.  I do not see the point of complaining to the developers in this sub-forum.

 

Similarly, if there are too many people playing Pe-2s and not enough in Il-2s it is hard to see what the developers can do about that. It is up to the mission designers to ration the aircraft.

 

I have stated before that I agree that the firing from crashing, spinning and violently manoeuvring planes is regrettable and I wish that the devs would get rid of it somehow for all game modes. This of course affects all planes, not just the Pe-2. All to often, however, we see videos of complaint where none of this is happening: instead we have people flying straight and getting hit: then complaining about it. What did they expect?

 

Additionally, as I pointed out a single 12.7mm bullet hits with the energy of about 4.5 7.62mm - maybe nearer 5 times, given it's MV and weight.  

 

The sceptics about all this are not playing a different game: they are seeing bias in the selection of incidents, and do not want to see arbitrary changes made just to achieve some desired result in terms of MP kill ratios. To the extent that AI gunners can be made to behave more like real people, I am completely in favour. I would just point out that in some ways this will make them more effective, not less. 

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19 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

edit: I should also mention that I'm already okay if the gunners dont get fixed. I still like Il-2 a lot. I have learned to simply avoid the Pe-2 is most situations so hopefully no more gunner induced gray hair to me.

 

Well, I came to the same conclusion for myself now. But let's be honest, in a simulation thriving for realism, this should never ever be the case. One can hope for the future...

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You are not going to get realistic outcomes in MP - in the sense of matching historic outcomes - unless people playing it start to behave in a realistic manner - in the sense of flying like actual WW2 pilots. Which most of the time they do not.

 

What you are getting is the outcomes, more or less, that WW2 pilots flying real aircraft would have got if they had all flown like MP pilots. ;) 

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12 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

You are not going to get realistic outcomes in MP - in the sense of matching historic outcomes - unless people playing it start to behave in a realistic manner - in the sense of flying like actual WW2 pilots. Which most of the time they do not.

 

What you are getting is the outcomes, more or less, that WW2 pilots flying real aircraft would have got if they had all flown like MP pilots. ;) 

 

I would be fine if it would be the same for both sides, but as it is, only one side really benefits from status-quo. This will always lead to frustration

 

Edit:

17 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

If you (Manu, Erkki and others)  think the level of the AI gunners in MP is a problem, lobby the server administrators to modify their mission design to reduce the level. The developers gave a wide range to the AI gunners - both air and AAA - presumably to allow for some game balancing.  I do not see the point of complaining to the developers in this sub-forum.

 

Thing is, it is actually a thing regarding the game, and not only the level of AI gunners are set to. The discrepancy of how dangerous the Pe2 is against fighters compared to all other bombers and ground attackers (even the A-20) just doesn't add up with historical accounts at all. It isn't anywhere close to the bombers. It's a difference of night and day. Maybe the Pe2 was a little more dangerous then a Ju-88 or an Il-2 (though the *subjective* pilot memoires I saw indicate otherwise), but the huge discrepancy in game is in no way believable

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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24 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

You are not going to get realistic outcomes in MP - in the sense of matching historic outcomes - unless people playing it start to behave in a realistic manner - in the sense of flying like actual WW2 pilots. Which most of the time they do not.

 

What you are getting is the outcomes, more or less, that WW2 pilots flying real aircraft would have got if they had all flown like MP pilots. ;) 

 

My whole point was that you do NOT get historic outcomes by behaving historically. Unless you think gunners should seriously damage an attacking fighter almost every time. What that induces is very unhistorical behaviour of avoiding bombers because they are more dangerous than fighters.

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

I would be fine if it would be the same for both sides, but as it is, only one side really benefits from status-quo.

Just for the record:

I've been killed hundreds of times flying a Pe-2 and being attacked by 109s, more often than not they even survived that supposedly lethal "dead six" attack.

In the same way, I've been killed hundreds of times flying a Yak-1/7, Lagg-3, La-5, I-16, P-39 and P-40 when trying to attack 111s, more often than not even when I did a full speed dive, 90° deflection "snapshot" attack sequence to be in gunner focus for less than a split second.

And I've done the same and suffered the same flying 111s, 109s and 190s. I didn't have the balls to try the 110 agains a Peshka yet.

I've tried both sides and got the same results either way.

 

All the complaints I've read here throughout the years have one thing in common: They're always told from the defeated point of view.

Maybe you (this goes to all who complain) would do yourself much more favour when trying to adopt more promising attack patterns than wasting your time telling others about how much you've failed so far.

 

Or just do yourself a favour and switch sides.

Got shot by a Peshka in your pretty 109?

Jump on a Peshka pilot seat and enter a 109 furball to see how that feels, and let's talk about your super gunners after that.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

No I do not agree that Pe-2s are unrealistically dangerous. Playing Career for the Germans I have shot down loads of them and hardly ever been hit. As long as you stay out of the rear quarter arc, do not fly straight and do not get too close they have a hard time hitting.  The problem is, as others have pointed out and probably everyone has experienced by now, that it is easy to underestimate the Pe-2's speed and get stuck behind it. If that happens you must get away immediately. People get shot down because they are greedy.

 

This happened to actual German pilots too - there is an account in one of the Bergmann books IIRC. Will try to find when it is light.

 

 

 

 

This.

Most don't appreciate what a big bad gun the 13mm, 12.7 and .50 cal are. They are long range weapons, if you ever get inside 300m in their arc of fire you better break off. Farther if the deflection is low.

You're usually attacking them with 20mm cannon with an effective range of around 200m, choose your shots carefully.

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24 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Just for the record:

I've been killed hundreds of times flying a Pe-2 and being attacked by 109s, more often than not they even survived that supposedly lethal "dead six" attack.

In the same way, I've been killed hundreds of times flying a Yak-1/7, Lagg-3, La-5, I-16, P-39 and P-40 when trying to attack 111s, more often than not even when I did a full speed dive, 90° deflection "snapshot" attack sequence to be in gunner focus for less than a split second.

And I've done the same and suffered the same flying 111s, 109s and 190s. I didn't have the balls to try the 110 agains a Peshka yet.

I've tried both sides and got the same results either way.

 

All the complaints I've read here throughout the years have one thing in common: They're always told from the defeated point of view.

Maybe you (this goes to all who complain) would do yourself much more favour when trying to adopt more promising attack patterns than wasting your time telling others about how much you've failed so far.

 

Or just do yourself a favour and switch sides.

Got shot by a Peshka in your pretty 109?

Jump on a Peshka pilot seat and enter a 109 furball to see how that feels, and let's talk about your super gunners after that.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Just for the record, I have been flying all kinds of aircraft (from fighters to bombers) and both sides. There is no "jump in on a Peshka and do...XY". Been there, done that. Just lately I haven't been flying Russian much, because I solely fly TaW, and there it's not allowed to switch sides. So I don't only talk from the defeated side, I also remember how it is to fly a Peshka. And as long as you don't "enter a furball" as you describe, but fly away at full throttle the Pe2 definitely feels very mighty. You feel a lot safer then in all other bomber/attack aircraft. Mind you, I am talking about early (Battle of Moscow) scenarios here. And it's definitely not the same for both sides, as you try to describe.

 

Just check TaW. Check the Peshka sorties and compare them to Ju88 or He111 sorties. Compare the K/D ratio. Ask fighter pilots, you'll here from a lot (well most) blue pilots, that they don't attack the Pe2 anymore, because it's too dangerous. You can be bloody sure, that the other way round it's vastly different. Soviet fighters are relishing every German bomber, easy kills (at least compared to German fighters). So please, don't act as if it would be the same for both sides. It's just not. 

I haven't felt that unfairly advantaged(!) when flying a Pe2 in Moscow scenarios since using the helicopter flaps of the Yak before they have been fixed. 

It's just that people don't wanna lose their wonder toy now, they don't care about realism. With the Yak-1 it was the same, so so many people who didn't want it to be fixed, no matter how obvious the flaw was. 

 

7 minutes ago, DD_Perfesser said:

This.

Most don't appreciate what a big bad gun the 13mm, 12.7 and .50 cal are. They are long range weapons, if you ever get inside 300m in their arc of fire you better break off. Farther if the deflection is low.

You're usually attacking them with 20mm cannon with an effective range of around 200m, choose your shots carefully.

 

And still German fighters had a vastly positive K/D against B-17 and B-24, who had a lot more firepower, engines and durability. Most of them pilots being kinda rookie pilots, mind you. Something doesn't add up in your reasoning.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Well if you choose to further waste your time with complaints that are phrased in a way to draw away any unbiased reader (Devs anyone?) within the first two lines, then that's fine with me and you're of course perfectly entitled to do so.

I for myself take the liberty to disagree with your opinion (yes, it's just an opinion, just like mine) on that matter and will rather keep concentrating on improving my attack patterns (fighter) and defensive strategies (bomber).

And before you start to wonder: No, I'm not scared of being the only one doing so :sleep:

 

:drinks:

Mike

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On 12/2/2018 at 5:38 AM, Mauf said:

I do not find the Pe2 gunners to be significantly more annoying than the german ones. All of them are annoyingly accurate snipers, level of annoyance dictated by the caliber of the gun.

 

This

 

Mitigated by AI setting.

That said, I'm not sure what AI setting a gunner operates at in a player controlled aircraft.

If you're flying it, you'd appreciate it if that guy back there was at "Ace"...flying against it you'll want that "low" setting.

 

Even then, this setting should be the same for all aircraft in the sim, and tests seem to bear this out.

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On 12/3/2018 at 10:55 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

This

 

Mitigated by AI setting.

That said, I'm not sure what AI setting a gunner operates at in a player controlled aircraft.

If you're flying it, you'd appreciate it if that guy back there was at "Ace"...flying against it you'll want that "low" setting.

 

Even then, this setting should be the same for all aircraft in the sim, and tests seem to bear this out.

 

Since the last update it's not the case anymore though. I used to shoot down Peshkas with relative "ease" online (still a lot harder then all other bombers).

But with the latest update it became near to impossible to kill it with a single-engined fighter without getting your own aircraft wrecked when the Peshka has ace gunners and a pilot who knows what he is doing, especially with it's damage model soaking up whole ammunition stores. It's basically suicide to attack it with a 109, unless the Peshka pilot is doing something wrong. I have tried all kinds of attack patterns in TaW, to no avail, got killed every time, last one was a pilot snipe. It has gotten to a state where it doesn't make sense to attack anymore in a one-engine fighter, and that's a tad too far if you ask me. We are still talking about bombers who should call them very lucky if they survive a fighter attack.

 

The gunners of course have been changed for all aircraft in the latest update. For the German bombers it causes them to not be a 100% deathtrap when alone, but when the atttacking Russian pilot knows what he is doing, it still looks very bad. 

 

And please, before you jump on the "learn how to attack properly, bla blub" train again - join TaW (or another server with veteran or ace gunners) take a 109 and go attack the Peshka. See for yourself before jumping on the "another Luftwhiner" train. You will see the vast difference to before the latest game update immediately. Your pre 3.007 experiences don't count anymore. I would be happy if it would just be like before the update, don't need any big nerf.

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The problem is that I have no way of knowing/checking/comparing what the AI setting of the gunners are in a player controlled aircraft, otherwise I'd do some testing on this.

As it is, all I have to go on is offline results with identical AI settings for each aircraft.

 

The AI settings in the editor are:

Low

Normal

High

Ace

Player

 

So when you set an aircraft to "player" I frankly have no idea what AI setting the rest of your crew is at.

 

Is it an impossible notion that somehow a player controlled Peshka has gunners at a higher setting that say a player controlled He-111? No it's not impossible, just unlikely at this point.

I personally just find it hard to believe that after all this time this wasn't checked and corrected if in fact it was ever necessary.



 

 

 

 

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Mind you that before the 3.007 update, we have tested, confirmed and reported that AI gunners were completely incapable of calculating a correct aiming solution once any kind of wind and/or gust was involved. They would just constantly, to the same extent and in the same direction, shoot besides the target plane.

The only way to get shot by an AI gunner in pre-3.007 was to either fly without any wind and gust, or get way too close to your work - and with "too close" I'm not talking about something like a few hundred meters, the gunners would still miss you there - I'm talking about less than 50-100m in that case. With winds involved, you'd have to attack from straight astern and get within 100m or less for the AI gunner to hit you.

And before aynone comes up telling me how wrong I am: Listen and understand: Wind was the key part before 3.007. That's what has changed now. Gunners now hit you the same with and without wind/gust.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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7 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

The problem is that I have no way of knowing/checking/comparing what the AI setting of the gunners are in a player controlled aircraft, otherwise I'd do some testing on this.

As it is, all I have to go on is offline results with identical AI settings for each aircraft.

 

The AI settings in the editor are:

Low

Normal

High

Ace

Player

 

So when you set an aircraft to "player" I frankly have no idea what AI setting the rest of your crew is at.

 

Is it an impossible notion that somehow a player controlled Peshka has gunners at a higher setting that say a player controlled He-111? No it's not impossible, just unlikely at this point.

I personally just find it hard to believe that after all this time this wasn't checked and corrected if in fact it was ever necessary.

 

 

Problem is, you can't use offline as testing grounds. Offline I can still kill AI Peshkas with ace AI with relative ease. The problems are only apparent when you are online. 

It is apparent for everyone who flies German in TaW and tries to attack Pe2s.

If you won't or can't try that, there is still another way that indicates that something is off. 

Analyze the TaW log data. The server pretty much logs everything, so it should be possible to apply data mining and analytics. This way you could find out KPIs like the average K/D of all planetypes, the hit-ratio and how many hits/second the gunners of the different bombers achieve. Might be a good way to ask the TaW admins for their logfiles and analyze them properly.

 

Before that you can take a look yourself, I know, not 100% scientific, but it will be plenty enough to see the discrepancy.

Yesterday I checked 10 bomber pilots from both sides, and all of their bomber logs. Not only you will see that the Pe2s survive a lot more often then all other bombers (and regularly getting airkills leading to a better then 1:1 K/D against fighters), they also score a lot more hits/second when being attacked then all other bombers.

Just go to the TaW homepage, go for top bomber squadrons, take 10 random players, and view their sortie stats. The difference is quite obvious.

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Mind you that before the 3.007 update, we have tested, confirmed and reported that AI gunners were completely incapable of calculating a correct aiming solution once any kind of wind and/or gust was involved. They would just constantly, to the same extent and in the same direction, shoot besides the target plane.

The only way to get shot by an AI gunner in pre-3.007 was to either fly without any wind and gust, or get way too close to your work - and with "too close" I'm not talking about something like a few hundred meters, the gunners would still miss you there - I'm talking about less than 50-100m in that case. With winds involved, you'd have to attack from straight astern and get within 100m or less for the AI gunner to hit you.

And before aynone comes up telling me how wrong I am: Listen and understand: Wind was the key part before 3.007. That's what has changed now. Gunners now hit you the same with and without wind/gust.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

I believe you and I am sure you had the best intentions, but in case of the Pe2 S.37 (just to be clear), it lead to a serious disbalance in BoM multiplayer.

Thing is, the gunners are not only hitting very good now, there are also a lot of factors, where gunners have unhuman capabilities (often mentioned already, just a couple of examples: hitting targets at high G, hitting targets when the bomber is doing wild abrupt manouvers, hitting targets when they come from the gunners blindspot within the fraction of a second). This is a general problem of all gunners, but with the Pe2 you can exploit it the best, because it's so maneuverable and fast. Combine this with the over-effective AP ammunition we have in general and the questionable durability of the S.37, and we get a "deathstar", most people don't dare to attack anymore in MP. And if, it leads to a K/D favourable for the bomber. This can't be the desired outcome, can it?!

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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What I'd like to suggest is this:

If you want something to be changed in the game, make sure you meet three points:

 

  1. Carry out sufficient investigation to backup your stance.
    This can be historical research, testing, gathering others with the same issue etc., depending on the issue you are trying to get sorted.
    I think this has been done sufficiently in case of the gunner issue.
     
  2. Phrase your concern in a clear, precise, comprehensible, unbiased and simple manner, without exaggeration and without any other gongs and tinsel.
    I think this has been missed consequently in case of the gunner issue.
     
  3. Think like a developer.
    Really do.
    Even if it's hard.
    Think like they do in order to get your concerns across in a manner they are likely to understand.
    For instance, in case of the gunner issue, all of the complaints so far have been missing the point, because from a dev's point of view they summarize to:
    "Hey, you've made all gunners aces, especially the Pe-2 ones, in 3.007. Revert them to what they have been before 3.007!"
    And the dev thinks "heck, we didn't even touch the gunner's precision in 3.007, to hell with these complaints!"
    The correct way of thinking starts with "what exactly has changed?".
    And this leads to:
    "Dear Devs, you've successfully eliminated the aiming error caused by wind and gust in 3.007, but unfortunately you forgot to tone down the gunner's overall capabilities to counter this improvement in marksmanship they got".

 

See the difference?

No exaggeration, no false accusations, no mentioning of Pe-2 or the like, just plain simple what is going on, in a polite and concise manner.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Edited by SAS_Storebror
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@SAS_Storebror I know you are right, emotions get in the way when you feel cheated and that resembles in the text. It's still all true though. And it wasn't exaggerated, even ace fighter pilots do not have a real chance against Pe2s right now, at least in TaW. 

 

That said, your bold part could be used as copy-paste for a change request. 

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Currently the dorsal gun on the He111 is much more dangerous against an enemy approaching from high six o'clock - other things being equal - than the dorsal turret on the Pe-2 s87. 


Test: 10 bombers on the ground, engine running, all the same AI level.  10 fighters (Bf 109 G-4) fly over them at 200m altitude at 250kph. The bombers are far enough apart that the dorsal gunner engages only the target directly to his rear.  As soon as the fighters are directly over the bombers the game is paused and the results noted. So the only thing that is changed is the plane model and the Plane AI setting.  

 

On Normal AI settings hits were extremely rare for both bomber types: one hit after four runs of the test.

On Ace settings the He111s hit ~90% of the targets, the Pe-2s ~5%.

 

If someone can see something wrong with these tests let me know before I waste a lot of time doing a larger run and checking other variables.

 

I will have a look at the High setting when I have time, and also check for effect of wind.  In addition, once a base line for hits for each setting is established it may be possible to check the results using a Player aircraft. 

 

 

Gunner Ai test missions.zip

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@unreasonable unfortunately those offline tests don't really show a lot. AI bombers and fighters are very different to actual players online. 

Doing data analytics from multiplayer servers and comparing the relevant KPIs would be the only valid way, to check how the different gunners compare against each other in a multiplayer environment.

The Pe2 S.87 is also not the biggest problem, it's rather the S.37 in Moscow campaigns (online).

 

PS: your tests are definitely not wrong, you should have to understand the scope. Your tests are valid for AI against AI scenarios.

 

The point of this thread is, to make the gunners overall more realistic - from every bomber.

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8 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

@unreasonable unfortunately those offline tests don't really show a lot. AI bombers and fighters are very different to actual players online. 

Doing data analytics from multiplayer servers and comparing the relevant KPIs would be the only valid way, to check how the different gunners compare against each other in a multiplayer environment.

The Pe2 S.87 is also not the biggest problem, it's rather the S.37 in Moscow campaigns (online).

 

PS: your tests are definitely not wrong, you should have to understand the scope. Your tests are valid for AI against AI scenarios.

 

The point of this thread is, to make the gunners overall more realistic - from every bomber.

 

I disagree profoundly: unless you can come up with a developer statement that unambiguously says that the AI routines for gunners online are different from those offline, we have to make the most reasonable assumption: that they are the same. The only unique variable for online that is demonstrable is lag effects, if any.  

 

What we do need to know, however, is what AI setting is applied to player planes.  Again, there is no reason to think that that is different online and offline.  It would be possible for someone who runs an online server - ie not me - to check by running the controlled mission off line and online and noting if results differ. 

 

Comparing MP K/D stats and the like is not going to get you anywhere: you are not comparing like with like in a controlled way, there are simply too many variables. 

 

As others have said, you are free to suggest what you like to the developers: but a number of well informed posters are warning you that you are barking up the wrong tree.

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13 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Comparing MP K/D stats and the like is not going to get you anywhere: you are not comparing like with like in a controlled way, there are simply too many variables. 

 

No, but hits/second and hit ratio will give you the numbers you need to compare them online. 

 

Attack and defense patterns are vastly different offline compared to online, AI compared to human. LIke I said, I have no problems not getting hit against an offline Pe2 ace AI, while I find it impossible online. That is plenty enough difference to not being able to compare AI to player controlled stuff...

 

My point is not, just to be clear, me thinking that the Peshka gunners are coded in a different (more accurate) way, then the rest of the bombers. My point is, that all gunners are coded way to effectively and with unrealistic abilities, but with the Peshka you can exploit it a lot more then with the other bombers. 

 

Your bots won't exploit it offline, so you won't see a difference offline.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Just now, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

No, but hits/second and hit ratio will give you the numbers you need to compare them online. 

 

Attack and defense patterns are vastly different offline compared to online, AI compared to human. LIke I said, I have no problems not getting hit against an offline Pe2 ace AI, while I find it impossible online. That is plenty enough difference to not being able to compare AI to player controlled stuff...


No, they really will not, because as others have said the problem with the Peska is it's speed. 

 

You are not comparing like with like: simply comparing overall results with what you think they "should be".  Attack and defence patterns are also vastly different online than they were in RL. That is why comparing overall results online with real data (not that you have done that yet) is of so little use. It is next to impossible to get RL data specifically detailed that you can control the different variables. 

 

Anyway, the thread title is about "extra-terrestrial gunners": not planes' attack or defence patterns. There are legitimate concerns about how the gunners are balanced, but your anecdotes and online data do nothing to shed any light on the issue.

 

If the gunners are AI, then the first question is are they programmed the same, for a given level,  online and off. The reasonable answer is that they are the same: the developers obviously know, ask them: or prove that they are not. 

 

If they are the same, they will attempt the same shots with the same probability of success online and offline.  Particular types of shots may occur more or less often online or off, but the probability of hits for the same sort of shot will be the same.

 

Then the final question is at what level should AI gunners in Player planes be set? Again this is of interest both online and off, since the range in results is so vast. 

 

Anyway, that is all I have to say on this issue until I can find out the Player plane's AI gunner setting. 

 

 

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