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You really need to do something about extraterrestrial gunners

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@unreasonable you didn't read my edit I guess. And you didn't understand my reasoning before, so good I clarified it. Because that's exactly what I think.

 

The Peshka was merely the demonstrator, because it's the aircraft where you can exploit the gunners capabilities a lot better then in the other bombers. 

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6 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Currently the dorsal gun on the He111 is much more dangerous against an enemy approaching from high six o'clock - other things being equal - than the dorsal turret on the Pe-2 s87. 

 

On Ace settings the He111s hit ~90% of the targets, the Pe-2s ~5%.

 

If someone can see something wrong with these tests let me know before I waste a lot of time doing a larger run and checking other variables.

 

Well, if your test shows that 7,92mm gun with 1000 rpm is so much more dangerous than 12,7mm gun with the same rate of fire, then it is pretty safe to assume that something is wrong with these tests. Maybe the planes attitude on the ground or some other parameter in the test that makes the target exposed to gunners fire for longer time / at shorter range could be the cause of such results (unless somebody thinks that He111 gunners are programmed to be so much superior?).

 

Anyway, if you are interested in running such tests, could you do similar tests, where the fighter overtakes the bomber with big speed advantage 200m above it, 200m below it and with same speed at his six, let's say for 5 seconds? 

 

In practice I think there are several things that contribute to Pe-2 being so lethal in the game. The layout of it's guns (no tail to block top gunner, 12,7mm belly gunner also being able to hit planes at/slightly below six), AI blind behaviour (being able to anticipate the moment when enemy passes through field of fire), ability to absorb lots of damage (need several passes to down it, follow-up passes often with less energy/surprise lost online) etc. 

 

If you wanted to test actual accuracy, could do a test where you keep your plane at the gunners optimal field of fire at x range for y seconds. It could tell you the gun's accuracy - I don't think the "human bots" have their accuracy skill levels programmed by nationality.

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21 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Well, if your test shows that 7,92mm gun with 1000 rpm is so much more dangerous than 12,7mm gun with the same rate of fire, then it is pretty safe to assume that something is wrong with these tests. Maybe the planes attitude on the ground or some other parameter in the test that makes the target exposed to gunners fire for longer time / at shorter range could be the cause of such results (unless somebody thinks that He111 gunners are programmed to be so much superior?).

 

Anyway, if you are interested in running such tests, could you do similar tests, where the fighter overtakes the bomber with big speed advantage 200m above it, 200m below it and with same speed at his six, let's say for 5 seconds? 

 

In practice I think there are several things that contribute to Pe-2 being so lethal in the game. The layout of it's guns (no tail to block top gunner, 12,7mm belly gunner also being able to hit planes at/slightly below six), AI blind behaviour (being able to anticipate the moment when enemy passes through field of fire), ability to absorb lots of damage (need several passes to down it, follow-up passes often with less energy/surprise lost online) etc. 

 

If you wanted to test actual accuracy, could do a test where you keep your plane at the gunners optimal field of fire at x range for y seconds. It could tell you the gun's accuracy - I don't think the "human bots" have their accuracy skill levels programmed by nationality.

 

The He111s were the H-16 version, with the 13mm HMG in the dorsal position - sorry if that was not clear. So the guns are ~= in hitting power per shot.

The time exposed is identical - they are all firing at the same targets moving at the same speed. TBH I was surprised at how different the results were, I will try to get to the bottom of it.

They may be firing shorter bursts, or at a lower rate of fire: so far I have only looked at the results.

 

Testing with AI planes in flight is very difficult:  the bombers will start to manoeuvre once the fighters are in range, making controlled conditions hard to replicate if you need a large enough sample to see average results.  When the planes are on the ground with the motors running the gunners will fire, however, so it is easier to control what is happening and scale up the number of the "sample".

 

Oh, and BTW, contrary to what was posted earlier in the thread, putting in a strong side wind still causes all the shots to miss until you are at very close range in 3.008

 

   

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5 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

The time exposed is identical - they are all firing at the same targets moving at the same speed.

 

That does not guarantee that time exposed is identical. I have a feeling that on the ground Pe-2 is a lot more nose-up attitude than He-111 (have not checked, but easy to check), which could mean that the fighter in the test could be out of Peshkas arc of fire, when it is close to it. Or there could be some other similar reason. Hard to believe that there is so big difference in the guns/gunner pure capabilities.

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37 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

That does not guarantee that time exposed is identical. I have a feeling that on the ground Pe-2 is a lot more nose-up attitude than He-111 (have not checked, but easy to check), which could mean that the fighter in the test could be out of Peshkas arc of fire, when it is close to it. Or there could be some other similar reason. Hard to believe that there is so big difference in the guns/gunner pure capabilities.

 

I attached the missions: you run them and see if you can see what it is.  

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Having flown the Pe-2 for most of TAW so far, and after being attacked multiple times, I've only gotten one air kill.  I've sent a few attackers packing with damage, but I guess I've been unlucky in being blessed with the 'God gunners' that are so hotly debated. 

 

The Air Kill I got was under very specific circumstances.  I was returning to base with heavy damage and a destroyed right engine - altitude: treetops.  I passed under a low and slow duel between a Mig-3 and a Mc.202.  The 202 saw me and pursued. The only thing I could do was keep level with heavy left rudder and pray.  The 202 proceeded to park on my 6 and pound me, all the while making himself impossible to miss by my top gunner.  He lost control and went into the trees mere seconds before I did.  Fortunately, I was slow enough to not be killed or injured. Realistically, It would have been broken legs and backs for me and my crew.  

 

I don't have any issue with Pe-2 gunners except this:  If the server/mission maker has assigned Ace or High level gunners to all planes instead of Random, then I see a problem, and it's not a Dev issue. It's a mission maker one.  

 

Other than that, build me a boat, then cry me a river. 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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3 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I don't have any issue with Pe-2 gunners except this:  If the server/mission maker has assigned Ace or High level gunners to all planes instead of Random, then I see a problem, and it's not a Dev issue. It's a mission maker one.  

 

Exactly

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Yes, the most important thing is the AI level set in mission. Mission designers should never ever use the ace level imo, it`s responsible for the impossible shots. Leave gunner AI to normal, and it`s all fine.

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23 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Having flown the Pe-2 for most of TAW so far, and after being attacked multiple times, I've only gotten one air kill.  I've sent a few attackers packing with damage, but I guess I've been unlucky in being blessed with the 'God gunners' that are so hotly debated. 

 

The Air Kill I got was under very specific circumstances.  I was returning to base with heavy damage and a destroyed right engine - altitude: treetops.  I passed under a low and slow duel between a Mig-3 and a Mc.202.  The 202 saw me and pursued. The only thing I could do was keep level with heavy left rudder and pray.  The 202 proceeded to park on my 6 and pound me, all the while making himself impossible to miss by my top gunner.  He lost control and went into the trees mere seconds before I did.  Fortunately, I was slow enough to not be killed or injured. Realistically, It would have been broken legs and backs for me and my crew.  

 

I don't have any issue with Pe-2 gunners except this:  If the server/mission maker has assigned Ace or High level gunners to all planes instead of Random, then I see a problem, and it's not a Dev issue. It's a mission maker one.  

 

Other than that, build me a boat, then cry me a river. 

 

Thing is you will get the kill in the rarest of cases in a Pe2 in TaW, because there is always a Russian figher around to "steal it". I have been shot down 5 times by a Peshka when flying a single engined fighter (without ever getting a kill), but only one of those 5 Peshkas actually got the kill reward. The other 4 times my engine was crippled, i was trying to get back to friendly lines/airfield but Russian fighters have been around and finished me off, twice even when i was dead stick towards the ground. That's why many Peshka pilots actually don't realize it, how deadly their plane is. You can at least quadruple the kills you see in the server stats. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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Firstly, Allied fighters I fly with don't "steal" kills.  They "secure" kills for the overall team effort.  We (mostly) don't care who gets the credit as long it's -1 more plane for the opponent's plane supply.  

 

Secondly, Does this count every time I'm strafed by 3 109s?  Does that mean that the 2 who didn't get the kills are 3x as deadly?

 

And... Thirdly.  I can only recount 1 time I sent and enemy running this TAW that a friendly fighter finished him off.  I can probably even tell you what sortie I was on in my stats list. 

 

P.S. I got my second Pe-2 kill today.  Went head-on with a 109 and we turned knife-edge cockpit-to-cockpit to avoid colliding.  We unfortunately did collide, with him going in and me losing my right engine.  It was an amazing bit of chaos.  He got a video of it. I hope it ends up in a TAW video on YouTube.  No Pe-2 gunner fired a shot. 

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Firstly, they absolutely do. It's definitely not a "secure" when i am already dead sticking to the ground at 200m alt. Or maybe they just want to kill my pilot too. And this "mostly don't care about the kill" might be true for you, but not for the most of your team 🙄. I have already seen absurd scenes in TaW, fighters arguing about the kill, shoulder shooting and crashing into each other, so we can stop with that "it's all about the team" stuff.

 

I don't understand your second point. Please elaborate what you mean. 

 

Thirdly, why do you think you know the amount of enemy aircraft that have been shot down after you crippled them? Did you check all fighters that attacked you and their respective sorties? 

 

 

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On 12/5/2018 at 8:08 PM, unreasonable said:

Oh, and BTW, contrary to what was posted earlier in the thread, putting in a strong side wind still causes all the shots to miss until you are at very close range in 3.008

 

Interesting to hear this as the issue was supposed to be solved.

Just out of curiosity: Did you test this while flying in the air or sitting on the ground?

Because the odd effect of the pre-3.008 wind gunner bug was that they would hit you when the gunner's plane was sitting on the ground (which is because they did calculate the wind compensation spot on), but as soon as the gunner's plane was in the air, he won't hit sh*t anymore (which is because he'd still try to calculate a wind compensation when there just isn't any wind involved anymore, because both gunner and victim are moving in the same media with no relative wind difference between the two).

 

Maybe the 3.008 "fix" eliminated the wind offset calculation altogether, so now the gunners hit in the air, but miss on the ground.

 

@edit: Just as a sidenote, I've been flying a sortie in an A-20 yesterday and much to my surprise, my gunner seemed to have been on strike.

I've issued the "fire at will", "return fire", "long attack distance" and "normal attack distance" commands several dozens of times while a 109 was sitting on my straight six at about 800m distance, but he didn't even bother to man the gun. Neither did he consider to do so later when I was dogfighting that 109, he just didn't give a flying f*** for what was going on. Either I picked a pacifist as a crew member, or he just came back from the X-Mas party, busy handling his barf bag :drink2:

 

:drinks:

Mike

Edited by SAS_Storebror

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3 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Interesting to hear this as the issue was supposed to be solved.

Just out of curiosity: Did you test this while flying in the air or sitting on the ground?

Because the odd effect of the pre-3.008 wind gunner bug was that they would hit you when the gunner's plane was sitting on the ground (which is because they did calculate the wind compensation spot on), but as soon as the gunner's plane was in the air, he won't hit sh*t anymore (which is because he'd still try to calculate a wind compensation when there just isn't any wind involved anymore, because both gunner and victim are moving in the same media with no relative wind difference between the two).

 

Maybe the 3.008 "fix" eliminated the wind offset calculation altogether, so now the gunners hit in the air, but miss on the ground.

 

@edit: Just as a sidenote, I've been flying a sortie in an A-20 yesterday and much to my surprise, my gunner seemed to have been on strike.

I've issued the "fire at will", "return fire", "long attack distance" and "normal attack distance" commands several dozens of times while a 109 was sitting on my straight six at about 800m distance, but he didn't even bother to man the gun. Neither did he consider to do so later when I was dogfighting that 109, he just didn't give a flying f*** for what was going on. Either I picked a pacifist as a crew member, or he just came back from the X-Mas party, busy handling his barf bag :drink2:

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Shoot the gunner with your pistol. :) 

 

I just took my ground He111 test with Ace AI (for lowest dispersion) as posted earlier and put in a good side wind. Everyone misses to the downwind side at long range.  I had previously tested Flak guns under 3.007 and seen exactly the same thing - whatever the AI setting. Not replicated this for 3.008 yet but it is easy enough to do.   I have not tested for gunners in flying aircraft: a bit trickier to see the effect there since it is also bundled up with the gunner plane vector not being factored in (or is it now - also easy enough to find that out with the He111 side gunner firing at ground targets).

 

My analysis of what was going on before is that the AI never compensated for wind, and never compensated for his own plane's vector, whether on the ground or in the air.  I think it unlikely that sometimes it did and sometimes did not.  

 

It is all very well and good the developers making all these excellent improvements to the game but they make every single one of our tests obsolete! ;)  I also deleted almost all my test missions about two days before 3.008 came out since I thought that there would be no need to run them again. 

Edited by unreasonable

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11 hours ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Firstly, they absolutely do. It's definitely not a "secure" when i am already dead sticking to the ground at 200m alt. Or maybe they just want to kill my pilot too. And this "mostly don't care about the kill" might be true for you, but not for the most of your team 🙄. I have already seen absurd scenes in TaW, fighters arguing about the kill, shoulder shooting and crashing into each other, so we can stop with that "it's all about the team" stuff.

 

I don't understand your second point. Please elaborate what you mean. 

 

Thirdly, why do you think you know the amount of enemy aircraft that have been shot down after you crippled them? Did you check all fighters that attacked you and their respective sorties? 

 

 

 

Then, I guess I'm very lucky that the group I fly with on the TeamSpeak do behave how I described.  I did mean to say the "Allied fighters (regular group) I fly with", to clarify. 

 

To also clarify, there's a difference between "dead stick" and "dead prop".  There always has been since Il-2 '46.  If one can still see your prop going, then you are still a target.  Now, if one's prop has stopped and they're gliding, then yeah, it's a bit douche-y to strafe them. 

 

My second point is:  You do know that TAW and other stats pages do record "ASSISTS", right?  How is a Pe-2 doing damage to a plane then another finishing him off any different than a 109 mortally wounding a Pe-2 then another 109 coming along and stealing the kill with a short burst?  Is one pilot's stats "overrated" while the other's "underrated"?

 

And Thirdly,  Yes. Actually, I do look over every TAW sortie where anything significant, beyond just getting my bombs off and RTBing, happens.  Since TAW stats let me look at stats pages of who I shot, who shot me, and any others that were involved,  I often take a few minutes to review each pilot's activity in that sortie.  I review who I attacked, I review who attacked me, I review who attacked them, etc., until all branches of the stat/action tree terminate.  It's not as time sucking as you might think to do that. 

11 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

 

@edit: Just as a sidenote, I've been flying a sortie in an A-20 yesterday and much to my surprise, my gunner seemed to have been on strike.

I've issued the "fire at will", "return fire", "long attack distance" and "normal attack distance" commands several dozens of times while a 109 was sitting on my straight six at about 800m distance, but he didn't even bother to man the gun. Neither did he consider to do so later when I was dogfighting that 109, he just didn't give a flying f*** for what was going on. Either I picked a pacifist as a crew member, or he just came back from the X-Mas party, busy handling his barf bag :drink2:

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

I've experienced this pre-3.008 in Pe-2 flights online. Being attacked with enemies parked on six and my tail gunner sitting back there making bologna sandwiches for the long walk home.

Either that, or he did man the gun and quietly mouthed the words 'bang! bang!' to himself as the enemy pulled up 100m on my dead 6. 

 

To hear that I'm not the only one is kind of a relief. Oddly enough, I want to believe it's a netcode issue, but IIRC there were also A-20s present on the map.  I know there's no foundation for this but, I wonder if there's a gunner bug in the A-20 that affects all gunners when online together.  After all, there's still the "bomb doors open light that drags 50m behind the A-20" that's not been fixed.  Maybe the A-20 has a few other hidden issues as well.  

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After doing multiple testing against the PE 2s I find that regardless of type when your attacking it is important to stay above out of the belly gunners field of fire. As of right now attacking from above and crossing over to below will often result in a crippling hit from the belly gunner regardless of how fast you are going unless you are at an extreme angle. However if you extend above rather then below the PE 2 even at moderate speeds the top gunner will have trouble hitting you, and you will have a much higher chance of survival.

Why the bottom gunner is that much more accurate I don't know, possibly because the upper AI gunner has to contend with the dual rudders and to try and avoid hitting them?

Edited by =SqSq=CrazyGman

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14 hours ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

Why the bottom gunner is that much more accurate I don't know, possibly because the upper AI gunner has to contend with the dual rudders and to try and avoid hitting them?

 

VVS tests found that bending over in a deep knee bend, shooting through a hole in the floor while wearing goggles and looking through a gun scope yielded the most accurate gunnery results - provided you were in a maneuvering aircraft while being shot at.

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11 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

VVS tests found that bending over in a deep knee bend, shooting through a hole in the floor while wearing goggles and looking through a gun scope yielded the most accurate gunnery results - provided you were in a maneuvering aircraft while being shot at.

 

That’s not surprising.  Luftwaffe tests found the same thing.

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40 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

That’s not surprising.  Luftwaffe tests found the same thing.

 

image.png.10fe4cd074c1e7195e25b117bfa5dde9.png

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1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

image.png.10fe4cd074c1e7195e25b117bfa5dde9.png

 

You know that’s exactly what you’re doing when you constantly whine about OP VVS gunners/aircraft, right?

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