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What will counter the K4 up high?


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8 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

It's hard to see how the P-51 and P-38 won't at least be slightly inferior to the 109K in most respects at typical combat altitudes in the game. If nothing changes they will boast slightly less performance and vastly less time at their max performance levels. I remain optimistic that something will change but that is the situation.

Worst case scenario would be Tempest reigns supreme down low, while Mustang and P47 hold their own up high. Spit IX will be there as the superior dogfighter, and P38 will be there to support as well.

 

K4 will not be the ruler of the skies. I see this as a fair and well thought out plane-set. With the one con being the inclusion of the 262, and people using its top speed as an excuse to introduce more planes to tip towards the allies favor.

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9 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Worst case scenario would be Tempest reigns supreme down low, while Mustang and P47 rule up high (or atleast hold their own). Spit IX will be there as the superior dogfighter, and P38 will also support.

 

Ask any P-40 pilot that things are much more nuanced than fire-walling a throttle. I done some tests but those were ignored as not fitting the narrative. My in the sim experience reflects them pretty good. IMO, it's best to wait out such topics because they are like puberty... waiting out it's the only thing one can really do.

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9 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Worst case scenario would be Tempest reigns supreme down low, while Mustang and P47 rule up high (or atleast hold their own). Spit IX will be there as the superior dogfighter, and P38 will also support.

 

K4 will not be the ruler of the skies. I see this as a fair and well thought out plane-set. With the one con being the inclusion of the 262, and people using it's top speed as an excuse to introduce more planes to tip towards the allies favor.

You know that dishonesty I talked about earlier? You are sliding right on into it.

The reality right now is that in the  1.98 ATA 109K the German side has a plane that greatly out-runs, out-climbs, and out-turns the American mount while diving just as well and having vastly more time at it's max performance settings. If nothing changes the the P-51 and P-38 will be in roughly the same position as the P-47. This is not even slightly balanced. (Please do not go citing marginal top speed advantages at heights where no one can be found and which only last a maximum of five minutes.)

The Tempest is a long way off and is an NMH plane anyway.

EDIT: The ideal plane set for roughly this period would be something along the lines of Spit IX, 109 G14, 190D, P-51D, P-47, P-38. The Spit will out turn the 109 but be slower. The 109 G-14 will be slower than the P-51/P-47s (depending on alt) but out-turn and out-climb. The P-38 will be slightly slower but somewhat better at dogfighting than it's stablemates. The Spit will be able to win for anyone  who can turn in a circle but other planes will be able to engage/disengage. The 190D will be the worst turner of all but will have speed and otherwise nice handling and firepower.

Edited by CMBailey
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1 minute ago, CMBailey said:

You know that dishonesty I talked about earlier? You are sliding right on into it.

The reality right now is that in the  1.98 ATA 109K the German side has a plane that greatly out-runs, out-climbs, and out-turns the American mount while diving just as well and having vastly more time at it's max performance settings. If nothing changes the the P-51 and P-38 will be in roughly the same position as the P-47. This is not even slightly balanced. (Please do not go citing marginal top speed advantages at heights where no one can be found and which only last a maximum of five minutes.)

The Tempest is a long way off and is an NMH plane anyway.

I never said the current situation isn't unbalanced. I'm just saying hold the pitchforks until all planes are released and we see how things play out.

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It shouldn't be about trying to make a 1:1 performance parity, it should be about representing what was most historically relevant and interesting during the tactical war above Europe. It's not only high performance Allied planes that are missing, stuff like the Typhoon being absent also really hurts and we almost certainly could've swapped out the P-38 for that. Battle of Moscow/Stalingrad clearly gave the Germans better fighters but (with the exception of the 190A-3) they were good representations of the theater

 

The Allies and Axis should both get whatever mass-produced aircraft fit the sim with historically appropriate modifications and engine settings. Multiplayer balance can be made with good mission design. This "assuming a spherical dogfight on a frictionless europe" nonsense needs to stop

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1 minute ago, Warpig said:

I never said the current situation isn't unbalanced. I'm just saying hold the pitchforks until all planes are released and we see how things play out.

That's fair.
In other games I've played the K4 was still a monster, but it had very bad  high-speed handling and the guns were very hard to hit with so it balanced. In current Il-2 EVERYTHING handles badly at 400+mph IAS and the guns don't seem much harder than other packages. So those balancing factors are out.

What do you think of this?
" The ideal plane set for roughly this period would be something along the lines of Spit IX, 109 G14, 190D, P-51D, P-47, P-38. The Spit will out turn the 109 but be slower. The 109 G-14 will be slower than the P-51/P-47s (depending on alt) but out-turn and out-climb. The P-38 will be slightly slower but somewhat better at dogfighting than it's stablemates. The Spit will be able to win for anyone  who can turn in a circle but other planes will be able to engage/disengage. The 190D will be the worst turner of all but will have speed and otherwise nice handling and firepower.  "

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5 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

What do you think of this?
" The ideal plane set for roughly this period would be something along the lines of Spit IX, 109 G14, 190D, P-51D, P-47, P-38. The Spit will out turn the 109 but be slower. The 109 G-14 will be slower than the P-51/P-47s (depending on alt) but out-turn and out-climb. The P-38 will be slightly slower but somewhat better at dogfighting than it's stablemates. The Spit will be able to win for anyone  who can turn in a circle but other planes will be able to engage/disengage. The 190D will be the worst turner of all but will have speed and otherwise nice handling and firepower.  "

That would be fun too.

 

But personally, the announcement of the K4 and Tempest was what got me the most excited.

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I'm surprised no one has yet set up a scenario on a server that features Jugs versus 190s and 109s other than the K4. That would be roughly fair.

There's a bit of psychology going on. Player morale is higher when they feel they have *some* advantage in their plane/on their side. It isn't about always winning or having all the advantages. It's  about thinking you have some advantage in your corner that you *can* win with *if* you play your cards right. Whereas knowing you have every disadvantage and relying on either bouncing the unsuspecting or the opponent making gross ACM mistakes is a tad demoralizing.

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I think the Tempest should shake things up a bit. I imagine that the Germans will be flying high to stay away from the Tempest, and then they should be at the altitudes that the Mustang and P47 like to be at.

 

Anything in between, will be strict BnZ or die to the Spit IX.

 

This is all just my imagination of course. We have to wait and see.

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Just now, Warpig said:

I think the Tempest should shake things up a bit. I imagine that the Germans will be flying high to stay away from the Tempest, and then they should be at the altitudes that the Mustang and P47 excel at.

 

Anything in between, will be strict BnZ or die to the Spit IX.

 

This is all just my imagination of course. We have to wait and see.

 

To be fair, 352nd (and others) Mustang pilots did not have issues dealing with 109’s at lower altitudes in Belgium etc, including right on the deck.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

To be fair, 352nd (and others) Mustang pilots did not have issues dealing with 109’s at lower altitudes in Belgium etc, including right on the deck.

 

 

We probably need that Mustang released next.

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P47s obviously had no problem dealing even with german aces. The 3rd highest ranking ace (Guenther Rall - 275 kills) barely escaped Zemkes wolfpack and lost his thumb. Not the machine, but teamplay was the decisive factor I guess:

 

On 19 April 1944, Rall was transferred to Jagdgeschwader 11 (JG 11), where he took up the position of Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 11, flying on operations in Defence of the Reich(Reichsverteidigung). Rall led his unit against the bomber fleets of Eighth Air Force. On 12 May 1944, Rall was leading a Staffel of Bf 109s and bounced a flight of three P-47 Thunderbolts led by Colonel Hubert Zemke, with Rall shooting down two Thunderbolts. His squadron were then bounced by other P-47s and was shot down by pilots of the 56th Fighter Group. Rall had his left thumb shot off and was hospitalized for many months because of the onset of infections.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_Rall

 

 

Virtualpilots - Günther Rall Interview

"Here, I want to tell you one last big, big fight was 12th May 1944. In the morning, I got call from the division commander 15 minutes alert we expect a big bomb raid. Then it was 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, cockpit alert. He said when the forward escort fighters are in this and this area, we start. This was in North Germany. Underneath are two Focke Wulf 190's. I am top cover with about 3000 meters on top with my fighter group against fighters. We went down, we saw the contrails, they came. Near north of Frankfurt we got in contact with a P-47 group. I went down right into the leader. They covered the area always with 4, 4, 4, 4. This was so called Hub Zemke's wolf pack. Hub Zemke was a leader of this American fighter group and he developed this tactics to cover a wide air space with wolf pack. 

I came in and got to the leader of the wolf pack and got his left wing. Flames you know. With this tremendous amount of fuel you get a flame. Then I cut to the right and I was hunted. Then they chased me. I should tell you the numbers. It was 800 4-engine bombers, B-17, B-24. This is a parade of 2 hours. They had cover of 1200 fighters from the Hartz mountains down to Stutgard. Always in 4, 4 or other formations. So it without chance. Anyway, I was chased by P-47. I knew exactly that in a dive P-47 is much faster than 109. And the P-47 has a much higher structural strength. They can go up to 1400 kilometers per hour. The 109, if you go to 1000, pull it up, you risk that the wings come off. So I went down from that, bang, bang, bang. I was chased by what we call line abreast, 4 p-47s. And all that shooting here and all of a sudden bang. The left hand was on the throttle and came off and the thumb was off. Finally, I managed. This was a very traumatic thing, certainly. I pull up, when I was down, to the stalling point. The couldn't follow me because these P-47 wanted to fly back to England. And I want to get rid of my airplane. I don't care for the airplane, I want to get out of this. I managed that. This was very difficult because I was hanging outside. I couldn't operate with this hand, nothing. Finally it worked and I pulled the parachute way down and I came down safely and was hanging on a tree."
 
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2 minutes ago, Warpig said:

I think the Tempest should shake things up a bit. I imagine that the Germans will be flying high to stay away from the Tempest, and then they should be at the altitudes that the Mustang and P47 excel at.

 

Anything in between, will be strict BnZ or die to the Spit IX.

 

This is all just my imagination of course. We have to wait and see.

Tempests are just fine but they have that "not 'Murican" problem.

I'll be honest with you: My favorite plane to fly in the Il2 series up till now has been the 190. Not overwhelming versus every opponent but pretty nice on most points. I'll fly a Lagg-3 if I have to switch sides because it's kind of a Russian 190 with lower performance.  I was expecting the Jug would be sort of the American 190 (not the god of dogfighting, but pretty nice). But between being up against the 1.98 ATA K4 all the time and very strict limits on using her power she's falling a touch short of that standard.

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22 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

To be fair, 352nd (and others) Mustang pilots did not have issues dealing with 109’s at lower altitudes in Belgium etc, including right on the deck.

 

 

To be fair we must say by the time the P51D pilots were there (late 44 and on) they were confronted with less experienced pilots and had a enormous advatage in numbers. Not to mention LW was in complete havoc by that time. Also there wasnt much K4 to meet, much less with best available engine. And, we are not talking about low level dogfight.

 

But listen guys, Im almost sure we will have more collector planes for Bodenplatte later, most probably Spitfire Mk XIV.

Edited by blackram
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I think right now Spitfire IXe & P-47D-28 vs. 109 G-4, G-6, G-14 and 190 A-5, A-8(after its heating issues are fixed) makes a quite balanced and pseudohistorical planeset for July-August-September 1944 scenarios. P-51 and bombers are missing, but its definitely playable. I wonder if any server has something like that yet?

 

K-4 will have to wait for P-51 and Tempest to have worthy adversaries.

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Care to elaborate?

As an American I’m unfamiliar with said problem.

I've been looking forward to flying the iconic American aircraft, especially the Jug, for awhile in this sim. I would like them to be reasonably competitive with what they commonly face, not ending up in roughly the same position as the P-40/P-39 occupy in other modules. It is quite true that the Tempest/Spit XIV would be fine counter-balances to the 1.98 ATA 109 K4, but I'm not particularly interested if BoBp ends up being "That K4 and D9 vs. Tempest and Spit XIV game".

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12 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

But do we want BoBp to essentially be "That Spit14 vs. 109K game"?

 

 

But there really is no other game that is "that game". Personally I'd love one. 

 

But we've come this far, arguably the two best Piston engine planes that the luftwaffe fielded, and with all the very late modifications. If it had been one of the lineups you mentioned, I still would have been happy. That is balanced for sure, and still historical. Everyone wants the best performing bird and people would have definitely asked for the k4 and xiv regardless, but it would have been a very fun fight. 

 

Bust as I've said, we've come this far, probably going to have to go all the way. I know the p51 and p38 will satiate a lot of the American crowd, but the xiv is still Mia. 

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4 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

I've been looking forward to flying the iconic American aircraft, especially the Jug, for awhile in this sim. I would like them to be reasonably competitive with what they commonly face, not ending up in roughly the same position as the P-40/P-39 occupy in other modules. It is quite true that the Tempest/Spit XIV would be fine counter-balances to the 1.98 ATA 109 K4, but I'm not particularly interested if BoBp ends up being "That K4 and D9 vs. Tempest and Spit XIV game".

 

Add the Mustang if it’s modeked up to standard.

I think on certain servers it will degenerate into that. One of the many reasons that we need Hyperlobby style CoOps back.

 

Single player of course isn’t an issue.

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Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

Add the Mustang if it’s modeked up to standard.

I think on certain servers it will degenerate into that. One of the many reasons that we need Hyperlobby style CoOps back.

 

Single player of course isn’t an issue.

I suspect that games in the past have intentionally given the most naturally hyper-popular WWII aircraft the lowest historically plausible set of performance values  as an attempt to offset said popularity and vis versa.  I do not agree with this practice.

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3 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

I suspect that games in the past have intentionally given the most naturally hyper-popular WWII aircraft the lowest historically plausible set of performance values  as an attempt to offset said popularity and vis versa.  I do not agree with this practice.

 

I remember flying a Dora on Warclouds in the old sim, and looking down and spotting a Yak 3 about 3k below me.

 

That Yak was on my tail in no time like white on rice. Couldn’t believe it - utter joke. Olegs Mustang didn’t have me doing backflips either, especially with those 6 door knockers that we’re supposedly.50 cals.

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4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I remember flying a Dora on Warclouds in the old sim, and looking down and spotting a Yak 3 about 3k below me.

 

That Yak was on my tail in no time like white on rice. Couldn’t believe it - utter joke. Olegs Mustang didn’t have me doing backflips either, especially with those 6 door knockers that we’re supposedly.50 cals.

I own the DCS P-51 module. Something I find interesting is that if it is the most realistic computer representation of the Mustang it is also by a wide margin the easiest to fly I’ve tried. I sometimes think instability, tricky handling and etc are added in in many cases because a lot of people believe harder to fly=more realistic.

Edited by CMBailey
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10 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

I suspect that games in the past have intentionally given the most naturally hyper-popular WWII aircraft the lowest historically plausible set of performance values  as an attempt to offset said popularity and vis versa.  I do not agree with this practice.

 

I dunno, P-51-D5 in 1946 can do 600 km/h at the deck and about 720 km/h at critical alt. Outturns the 190 and some 109s too. My record on Warclouds flying P-51 was 59 kills before I died to my own greed 15 seconds before mission end, mostly 190s because that was in the era before D-9 was nerfed :) 

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Just now, CMBailey said:

I own the DCS P-51 module. Something I find interesting is that if it is the most realistic computer representation of the Mustang it is by a wide margin the easiest to fly I’ve tried. I sometimes think instability, tricky handling and etc are added in in many cases because a lot of people believe harder to fly=more realistic.

 

Flipside is that Robin Olds speaks of basically almost augering in a Mustang on landing due to applying too much throttle to correct an early stall I believe. I’ll look tonight to verify the details.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

I dunno, P-51-D5 in 1946 can do 600 km/h at the deck and about 720 km/h at critical alt. Outturns the 190 and some 109s too. My record on Warclouds flying P-51 was 59 kills before I died to my own greed 15 seconds before mission end, mostly 190s because that was in the era before D-9 was nerfed :) 

372mph on the deck is in the historical range. Did it have 75”/150 octane? Out-turning 190s is also reasonable if you look at their respective wing-loadings at combat weights. (In the past I’ve caught people citing wing-loadings for the P-51 that could only be achieved with a full auxiliary tank+drops. The aux was burned even before externals because it had very bad effects on stability when full(.

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Flipside is that Robin Olds speaks of basically almost augering in a Mustang on landing due to applying too much throttle to correct an early stall I believe. I’ll look tonight to verify the details.

 

 

You can definitely do that in a DCS P-51. But that’s not anything odd.

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50 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

But do we want BoBp to essentially be "That Spit14 vs. 109K game"?

 

No, we dont, so thats why once the bodenplatte map will be out (and all planes) our mission makers will reduce the numbers of K4, Spit 14 and ME 262...on example.

Edited by blackram
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Just now, CMBailey said:

372mph on the deck is in the historical range. Did it have 75”/150 octane? Out-turning 190s is also reasonable if you look at their respective wing-loadings at combat weights. (In the past I’ve caught people citing wing-loadings for the P-51 that could only be achieved with a full auxiliary tank+drops. The aux was burned even before externals because it had very bad effects on stability when full(.

 

I cant recall what engine and fuel rating it is modeled after. It does hold speed very well through many kind of maneuvers compared to both 109 and 190 and it can choose to run away too, except from the K-4(depending on altitude).

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1 minute ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

I cant recall what engine and fuel rating it is modeled after. It does hold speed very well through many kind of maneuvers compared to both 109 and 190 and it can choose to run away too, except from the K-4(depending on altitude).

If it weren’t for the 1.98K4 I wouldn’t be asking for 150 octane tbh.

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2 hours ago, CMBailey said:

In my dive testing at over 400mph IAS the K4 and P-47 have about the same elevator authority. If one is willing to heavily use the trim the 109 can actually pull MORE G, into the blackout. Whereas even full nose-up trim doesn’t do that for the Jug. I am currently in the process of trying to re-find some documentation on the 47 I’ve seen before that reports on Jug stick forces as compared to several other planes. I’m certain the Jug should be able to pull as much G as the pilot can bear at 400 IAS, and the inability to do so to either make a shot or do high speed evasive maneuvers is semi-crippling for a plane whose major advantage is dive speed.

I think its this one. Give you some figures of stick force per g at some different speeds

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/Naca_TN_2899__F-47D-30_Flight_Test.pdf

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3 hours ago, Warpig said:

Nobody is trying to rewrite history. The Tempest, Mustang, and P38 haven't even been released yet, and everybody is already writing them off.

So you think devs making them from their imagination.....maybe P51 will outperform K4 in every way?

 

We don't need to wait to see how plane will performe.....it's all over the internet and history books!

Only thing where p51 can beat k4 is fuel fight.

 

MP community is already screwed with majority of axis pilots (2 109 on 1 allied) camping in outer atmosphere or vulching.

So allies getting plane that could par them should only bring balance cos those same players will switch to red side cos only way they can make a kill and call themself Hartmanns is by flying super-uber planes.

 

 

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3 hours ago, CMBailey said:

Advantage switched back and forth a few times. The P-47D way faster than the ships it faced at typical altitudes in 1943. The Fw-190A definitely took the advantage for a little while earlier, but the Spit IX took it back. 150 octane and other late factors allowed Allies in ETO to extend rough parity to the end of the wear against hot but increasingly rare German aircraft. If the war had gone on a little while longer you would have seen P-51Hs appearing to counter the 109K menace, and P-80s to counter the 262 menace.

 

It's hard to see how the P-51 and P-38 won't at least be slightly inferior to the 109K in most respects at typical combat altitudes in the game. If nothing changes they will boast slightly less performance and vastly less time at their max performance levels. I remain optimistic that something will change but that is the situation.

 

Exactly, the only airframe that will make a significant difference will be the Tempest, which will potentially dominate at low altitude.

 

That said, there's also the fact that the allies never really faced the same pressures as the LW midway through 1944 and onwards. Air superiority was won, and with it the urgent need to deploying newer and better hardware. The same couldn't be said for the LW, which was desperately looking for something to compensate for the Allies' domination.

 

Likewise, if the servers demanded a 4v1 ratio in favour of the allies, we probably wouldn't mind flying P-47Ds against K4s. :)

2 hours ago, CMBailey said:

But do we want BoBp to essentially be "That Spit14 vs. 109K game"?

 

 

Why would introducing the Spit14 lead to that? Was BoS  "that 109F4 vs Yak-1 game?"

 

Having Spit14 (and 150 octane fuel on appropriate planes) would work quite well, and there will still be diversity of airplanes, just like people to day fly plenty of aircraft that aren't the top dog in their respective timelines. Not to mention the fact that mission designers will likely include maps of different time periods where the Spit14 and K4 aren't represented.

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13 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

Exactly, the only airframe that will make a significant difference will be the Tempest, which will potentially dominate at low altitude.

 

That said, there's also the fact that the allies never really faced the same pressures as the LW midway through 1944 and onwards. Air superiority was won, and with it the urgent need to deploying newer and better hardware. The same couldn't be said for the LW, which was desperately looking for something to compensate for the Allies' domination.

 

Likewise, if the servers demanded a 4v1 ratio in favour of the allies, we probably wouldn't mind flying P-47Ds against K4s. :)

Servers are loaded with ratio of 5:3, 5:4(axis:allies).

If that were the case IRL back then, now we would all speak german at the dinner with Adolfs picture hanging on the wall over the kitchen table.

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1 minute ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

Servers are loaded with ratio of 5:3, 5:4(axis:allies).

If that were the case IRL back then, now we would all speak german at the dinner with Adolfs picture hanging on the wall over the kitchen table.

 

If there was anything approaching parity at the time, you can bet the allies would have been fielding better hardware sooner.

 

But the fact of the matter is that parity was never a concern, not the moment the USA joined up. So why bother making expensive and harder to produce/train pilots in airframes in any quantity and rush them to service, when you already have good hardware that will beat the axis with their sheer numbers.

 

After all, what made the P-51 great was that it was a good aircraft that could escort bombers all the way to Germany. Sure, it wasn't the best dogfighter, but it never needed to be. The fact that it was good enough, in large enough numbers, and most importantly that it could get to where it needed to be, was enough for it to be instrumental in crippling the Luftwaffe.

 

Rambling a bit, but the point is that the specific tactical situation which we will meet in the sim on the western front is one that never existed, which is a bit of a shame, and should indeed lead the devs to make some effort to provide a more even planeset (and mods like 150 octane fuel).

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5 hours ago, Warpig said:

I wish they didn't even add the 262. It's only good at going in straight lines anyways. I would have rather this game stayed with prop planes.

 

Anybody with good SA should not have a problem dodging 262's. I would have rather seen the Ta152.

 

I think you'll be surprised at how nimble the 262 is at speed (it will turn tighter than an F-86 Sabre) and how well it will retain its speed during maneuvers. The full span slats also gives it those extra degrees of AoA you need leading a target for a quick snapshot before you wizz past him. As long as you refuse to get below 500-450 km/h in any form of fight you should be good vs any of the props as your acceleration is much better at those speeds and up.

 

I for one almost never had any issues shooting down even the most aware of pilots. In the end they simply don't have the energy and I can keep attacking knowing it takes just one hit with those 30mm guns to basically end the fight, and with 4x shooting at a combined 2,200 rpm I usually got hits within the first two passes, despite the low MV of the Mk108.

 

Thus if modelled correctly I'm sure the Me262 will be the best fighter ingame, hence I also feel it is very important that it is only made available in very limited numbers on any map it is present on.

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5 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

I for one almost never had any issues shooting down even the most aware of pilots. 

 

First, we're not flying against Sabres but much more nimble prop fighters.

 

Second, I spent time in the 262 in the old sim flying it, and against it, and with much respect, you were most definitely not scoring kills against skilled, aware pilots.

 

You scored kills in crappy aware pilots, crappy unaware pilots, or unaware  pilots with more skill - the end. 

 

I could dodge 2 262’s all day flting any other aircraft in that sim.

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4 hours ago, CMBailey said:

EDIT: The ideal plane set for roughly this period would be something along the lines of Spit IX, 109 G14, 190D, P-51D, P-47, P-38. The Spit will out turn the 109 but be slower. The 109 G-14 will be slower than the P-51/P-47s (depending on alt) but out-turn and out-climb. The P-38 will be slightly slower but somewhat better at dogfighting than it's stablemates. The Spit will be able to win for anyone  who can turn in a circle but other planes will be able to engage/disengage. The 190D will be the worst turner of all but will have speed and otherwise nice handling and firepower.

 

tbh I've never believed that the P-51 was a better turner than the Fw190, at least not up to 15 kft, and I believe the Allied comparison between a Fw190A and P-51B at high altitude which concluded both as essentially the same in the turn is good evidence of this. It's the exact result you get if you use the numbers provided in an original FW aerodynamic summary. In short the P-51D & Fw190D should be an extremely close match up when it comes to a maneuvers fight.

 

As for the P-38, I know it's got a mythical reputation in regards to turning, stemming mostly from accounts by pilots operating in the pacific, but the math has just never added up IMO, and the fact that LW pilots often refered to it as easy prey in a dogfight only reaffirms that. It's just too much airplane for too little lift in comparison with its single engined competitors. It's got some impressive speed and a killer armament though, so it definitely has its place, it just won't be as an air superiority fighter.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

First, we're not flying against Sabres but much more nimble prop fighters.

 

Second, I spent time in the 262 in the old sim flying it, and against it, and with much respect, you were most definitely not scoring kills against skilled, aware pilots.

 

You scored kills in crappy aware pilots, crappy unaware pilots, or unaware  pilots with more skill - the end. 

 

I could dodge 2 262’s all day flting any other aircraft in that sim.

 

Well alright then, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who's already made up their mind :)

 

I will be happy to show how helpless you can become once the Me262 comes out though :)

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9 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

tbh I've never believed that the P-51 was a better turner than the Fw190, at least not up to 15 kft, and I believe the Allied comparison between a Fw190A and P-51B at high altitude which concluded both as essentially the same in the turn is good evidence of this. It's the exact result you get if you use the numbers provided in an original FW aerodynamic summary. In short the P-51D & Fw190D should be an extremely close match up when it comes to a maneuvers fight.

 

As for the P-38, I know it's got a mythical reputation in regards to turning, stemming mostly from accounts by pilots operating in the pacific, but the math has just never added up IMO, and the fact that LW pilots often refered to it as easy prey in a dogfight only reaffirms that. It's just too much airplane for too little lift in comparison with its single engined competitors. It's got some impressive speed and a killer armament though, so it definitely has its place, it just won't be as an air superiority fighter.

 

 

 

Well alright then, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who's already made up their mind :)

 

I will be happy to show how helpless you can become once the Me262 comes out though :)

 

The problem with the P-38 had nothing to do with it's turn, it's the roll rate that let the P-38 down and can make it seem like a slow turner, when in reality is was very good.

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