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What will counter the K4 up high?

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1 vs 1. Flying in MP Its clear now the K4 is the king of high alt dogfight. P47 cant do much (if both pilots are of the same quality), only in team vs team fight can do something. Yes there always be ppl who can do better. but let see what we will get in the future for the allies. P51D.....ehh, a great high alt fighter but certainly not better, doesnt turn as well on med to low speeds, considerably slower climber, weaker armament than K4.... and K4 we have can bring 1.98 Ata (engine mod). Tempest was super fast down low and has very good armament but it wasnt an high alt fighter. P38 cant be taken seriously in 1 vs 1 fighter role.

Dont get me wrong I dont think something is wrong with K4 but currently it turns an average pilot like me into a f monster in such "occasions".

Then again I wouldnt like to see the plane reduced in MP missions, that would cause an rage.

 

Edited by blackram

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5k+

You know, finally we have a server for grownups which can allow that. Thankfully.

Edited by blackram

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Just now, blackram said:

5k+

Thats only around 16k ft. At those altitudes the K4 is superior. P-47 doesn't become superior until around 23-25k ft (around 7-8 K)

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Just now, Legioneod said:

Thats only around 16k ft. At those altitudes the K4 is superior. P-47 doesn't become superior until around 23-25k ft (around 7-8 K)

I never ever saw P47 so high in MP. Maybe once......at 7k K4 is stil very competitive.

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Just now, blackram said:

I never ever saw P47 so high in MP. Maybe once......at 7k K4 is stil very competitive.

Agree the K4 is competitive at all altitudes, but the P-47 doesn't truly become superior until above 7K.

All things being equal, at around 7500m to 8000 the P-47 should have the upper hand, below this the K4 would have the edge.

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1.98ata is not overly historical for our scenario, but at 1.8ata it's still extremely dangerous. Just stick to proper high altitude (5k is nothing, even single stage engines are only just starting to choke down there) and you can make it work though.

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4 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

1.98ata is not overly historical for our scenario, but at 1.8ata it's still extremely dangerous. Just stick to proper high altitude (5k is nothing, even single stage engines are only just starting to choke down there) and you can make it work though.

Once you get over critical altitude for both engines the DC engine shouldn't make any difference. That's quite high though.

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12 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

1.98ata is not overly historical for our scenario

0ecc8a1726252a637b05a63b1bfe8f9821b05c63

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4 minutes ago, Warpig said:

0ecc8a1726252a637b05a63b1bfe8f9821b05c63

 

Well he is correct.

The more I fly the P-47 the more I realize that 1.98 ata isnt all that scary (at high altitude) As long as you keep the 47 where it is superior (around 23-25k ft.) then you'll be able to handle the K4.

Below that it takes more skill.

 

Funnily enough though, all my K4 kills have been at medium-low altitude. K4s seem to be scared to fly high.

Edited by Legioneod

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15 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Well he is correct.

Yea, but it's here. No reason to bicker about it anymore. There was already entire threads dedicated to the subject. Should we continue to bring it up in every thread available?

Edited by Warpig
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P47 and P51 were optimized for 22.000 - 25.000 feet, to protect the bombers back then. At those heights they perform both very well. 

 

As for your original question: What will counter the K4? P51, P47 and at low altitude the Tempest will do that to a certain extent, however I seriously doubt there will be an antidote to a skilled K4 player in MP, regardless of 1.98 ata or altitude.

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3 minutes ago, sevenless said:

P47 and P51 were optimized for 22.000 - 25.000 feet, to protect the bombers back then. At those heights they perform both very well. 

 

As for your original question: What will counter the K4? P51, P47 and at low altitude the Tempest will do that to a certain extent, however I seriously doubt there will be an antidote to a skilled K4 player in MP, regardless of 1.98 ata or altitude.

Well I can think of one thing that would be pretty good medicine for the K4, but it's already been mentioned 1000s of times.

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2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Well I can think of one thing that would be pretty good medicine for the K4, but it's already been mentioned 1000s of times.

It kinda upsets you to the extreme level. Relax mate. Its a game and this is a forum. Peace.

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2 minutes ago, blackram said:

It kinda upsets you to the extreme level. Relax mate. Its a game and this is a forum. Peace.

? I'm not really upset lol, I'm just saying it's already been mentioned by others plenty of times.

I can handle the K4 with what we currently have. 70" would just be icing on the cake, though I don't need it.

Edited by Legioneod

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5 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

....and can alternate between WEP and combat power through a full tank of fuel.

That has to do with the current disparity between engine models, definitely needs a fix. Or a change in other aircraft engine models.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

That has to do with the current disparity between engine models, definitely needs a fix. Or a change in other aircraft engine models.

 

Only partially, comparing WEPs alone K-4 is still faster. Gap is at its closest at 7000 m.

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30 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Yea, but it's here. No reason to bicker about it anymore. There was already entire threads dedicated to the subject. Should we continue to bring it up in every thread available?

 

This is a thread about K-4s though.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Only partially, comparing WEPs alone K-4 is still faster. Gap is at its closest at 7000 m.

True but only by a few mph iirc. That being said, the P-47 is more maneuverable up high than the K4, when I flew both I noticed a distinct disadvantage in the K4 maneuverability.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

K-4 is faster at all altitudes and can alternate between WEP and combat power through a full tank of fuel.

 

Not always it's faster, thought - it will depend on fuel loads/guns mounted. You can keep the ufocracker at bay if you are careful with the engine in the Jug at +23K ft. You can run away too as long there is enough altitude left. You can deploy nice slotted trailing edge flaps and readily out-turn the menace but at cost of velocity of course. The P-47 is only truly in bad situation if caught low and slow but that's typical for American fighters.

 

And yup - the WEP in the sim policy is simply outrageous and yet somehow one can manage in the P-xxs planes.

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4 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Not always it's faster, thought - it will depend on fuel loads/guns mounted. You can keep the ufocracker at bay if you are careful with the engine in the Jug at +23K ft. You can run away too as long there is enough altitude left. You can deploy nice slotted trailing edge flaps and readily out-turn the menace but at cost of velocity of course. The P-47 is only truly in bad situation if caught low and slow but that's typical for American fighters.

 

And yup - the WEP in the sim policy is simply outrageous and yet somehow one can manage in the P-xxs planes.

Agreed, imo this is a testament to which pilot is more skilled. I'm not saying the K4 doesn't take skill but it's a whole lot easier than being good in the P-47 or any other American aircraft.

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9 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

True but only by a few mph iirc. That being said, the P-47 is more maneuverable up high than the K4, when I flew both I noticed a distinct disadvantage in the K4 maneuverability.

 

More maneuverable? You must mean rolls better and turns slightly better at high speeds. Kinda like 190 vs. Yak.

 

K-4 especially with the DC engine beats the snot out of P-47 in a duel at all altitudes. You can go and compare climb and turn rates. And since K-4 is decisively faster at all altitudes except at and right next to 7000 m, and can stay faster as long as it has fuel left in the tank, it can dictate any engagement where its not surprised or attacked from superior position or where its not about to run out of fuel. Use flaps you say? Okay, what if the 109 uses flaps of its own? Then you end up at slow speed where the 109 has superior handling and acceleration. Game over man, game over.

 

We are talking about K-4 here, not early Gs. I'm not saying a good pilot cant win - a good pilot can make P-40 work against 109 F-4 too. Just saying the K-4 is easily the superior performer when it comes to raw speed, climb and low to medium speed handling, and thus its both better duelist and better overall fighter within the limitations of its small fuel tank.

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16 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

This is a thread about K-4s though.

I think we should be thankful we have both settings available. Even if 1.98 was rarer. Just like I would love to see the Allies get their max performance equivalence. All we can do is wait and see. Until then, no reason to constantly beat up on the K4 having the settings it has.

 

You could have easily gave your input without the little jab at the 1.98 settings. It's not gonna change anything.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Use flaps you say? Okay, what if the 109 uses flaps of its own?

 

The P-47 has much nicer flaps though, they drop the power-on stall speed under 30mph. You can turn like a butterfly.

Just now, Warpig said:

You could have easily gave your input without the little jab at the 1.98 settings. It's not gonna change anything.

 

Not a jab, a factual statement. Nobody has yet to provide verifiable data that 1.98ata was used by a combat unit during our scenario outside of testing.

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4 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

More maneuverable? You must mean rolls better and turns slightly better at high speeds. Kinda like 190 vs. Yak.

 

K-4 especially with the DC engine beats the snot out of P-47 in a duel at all altitudes. You can go and compare climb and turn rates. And since K-4 is decisively faster at all altitudes except at and right next to 7000 m, and can stay faster as long as it has fuel left in the tank, it can dictate any engagement where its not surprised or attacked from superior position or where its not about to run out of fuel. Use flaps you say? Okay, what if the 109 uses flaps of its own? Then you end up at slow speed where the 109 has superior handling and acceleration. Game over man, game over.

 

We are talking about K-4 here, not early Gs. I'm not saying a good pilot cant win - a good pilot can make P-40 work against 109 F-4 too. Just saying the K-4 is easily the superior performer when it comes to raw speed, climb and low to medium speed handling, and thus its both better duelist and better overall fighter within the limitations of its small fuel tank.

 

Well me and you just have different experiences then. The K4 is tough sure but it's not all that imo.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

 

Well me and you just have different experiences then. The K4 is tough sure but it's not all that imo.

 

Just dont be surprised that many others will refuse to fly P-47 vs. K-4 online after the shine of a new toy wears out. That mighty speed alone makes K-4 the best fighter in the game right now, and how those engine modes are done really dont help P-47 pilots at all. And on top of the speed, the K-4 also the best climber. Even without 1.98 ATA.

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1 minute ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Just dont be surprised that many others will refuse to fly P-47 vs. K-4 online after the shine of a new toy wears out. That mighty speed alone makes K-4 the best fighter in the game right now, and how those engine modes are done really dont help P-47 pilots at all. And on top of the speed, the K-4 also the best climber. Even without 1.98 ATA.

 

Won't surprise me at all, especially due to the fact that the K4 will be rather limited in mp imo and 1.98 version even more so.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Just dont be surprised that many others will refuse to fly P-47 vs. K-4 online after the shine of a new toy wears out. That mighty speed alone makes K-4 the best fighter in the game right now, and how those engine modes are done really dont help P-47 pilots at all. And on top of the speed, the K-4 also the best climber. Even without 1.98 ATA.

 

Cite the in game specs, then - focus on the 6000m, especially. My observations reflects that and I had enough encounters with K-4 on the Berloga and KOTA, already. It's survivable enough, even winnable sometimes and I'm not that smooth with engine controls in the P-47, yet.

 

To contrary, once people will get more familiar with the planes like the P-47 the more they will like them. Maybe because fire-walling of the throttle isn't their major and often only advantage.

Edited by Ehret

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2 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Cite the in game specs, then - focus on the 6000m, especially. My observations reflects that and I had enough encounters with K-4 on the Berloga and KOTA, already. It's survivable enough, even winnable sometimes and I'm not that smooth with engine controls in the P-47, yet.

 

To contrary, once people will get more familiar with the planes like the P-47 the more they will like them. Maybe because fire-walling of the throttle isn't their major and often only advantage.

 

In game specs say K-4 climbs better at 6000 m. The K-4 climb rates are for combat power only. I have actually tested these planes and K-4 is faster at all altitudes. Yes, even if you dump all fuel and half the guns on the P-47. And the K-4 can still maintain that WEP-combat-WEP-combat cycle while P-47 needs to turn off the water minute after its reached its top speed. The superior speed alone makes K-4 the best fighter.

 

LaGG-3 or P-40 vs. 109 F-4 is also survivable, but that doesnt make LaGG-3 or P-40 better fighters than the F-4.

 

I too quite like flying the P-47 but it just isnt competitive against the K-4. That rocket sled is in a league of its own right now.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

In game specs say K-4 climbs better at 6000 m. The K-4 climb rates are for combat power only. I have actually tested these planes and K-4 is faster at all altitudes. Yes, even if you dump all fuel and half the guns on the P-47. And the K-4 can still maintain that WEP-combat-WEP-combat cycle while P-47 needs to turn off the water minute after its reached its top speed. The superior speed alone makes K-4 the best fighter.

 

Some quick tests - planes at 50% no other mods than 4/6/8 guns option for the P-47 and the 1.98 engine for the K4, altitude 7000m Kuban autumn, level flight and waited a bit to stable reading. Results in IAS from HUD:

 

K4 at full throttle - 490km/h

 

P-47D open throttle/boost, water injection, 2510rpm, mixture at 100%, cowl closed, oil/inter-cooler 50/50 - no overheating:

8 guns - 486km/h

6 guns - 489km/h

4 guns - 492km/h

 

Should be noted that MP and RPMs are not at maximum thus the timer will be ticking slower.

Edited by Ehret

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How is the high speed handling of the K4? Improved at all, or standard 109? 

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2 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Some quick tests - planes at 50% no other mods than 4/6/8 guns option for the P-47 and the 1.98 engine for the K4, altitude 7000m Kuban autumn, level flight and waited a bit to stable reading. Results in IAS from HUD:

 

K4 at full throttle - 490km/h

 

P-47D open throttle/boost, water injection, 2510rpm, mixture at 100%, cowl closed, oil/inter-cooler 50/50 - no overheating:

8 guns - 486km/h

6 guns - 489km/h

4 guns - 492km/h

 

Push the stabilizer ahead in the K-4. 491 km/h IAS, and it can maintain that for 5 min longer and once in combat power, its again about 20 km/h IAS faster than P-47's(again shorter) combat power level speed. RPM can be manually increased to achieve more speed at the cost of WEP timer - just a bit more and its faster while still having more than P-47's 5 min of WEP.

 

And so what? P-47 gets that close in a very narrow altitude band. At low altitudes its basically meat on the table(speed difference is around 45 km/h at WEP) in every respect, and in an even duel P-47 loses even if that duel begins at 7000 m. This is like saying P-39 is as good as 190 because they're about equally fast at 3000 m.

 

Look, I dont say that one cant be successfull in the P-47 against K-4. Just that numbers dont lie and K-4 is clearly the better machine and people dont see K-4 win over P-47 just because P-47 pilots are bad and dont know the tricks yet. In couple of first posts it was presented that P-47 becomes superior at high enough altitudes, but unfortunately(for P-47 and for online gameplay balance) that just isnt the case.

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In the limited testing that the Pigs have done so far since they have been released, it's obvious that the K4 is "God mode".  There isn't one plane on the Allied side that can do anything about the K4 if it's even remotely flown in a semi competent manner.  None of the upcoming Allied fighters are going to change that either.  1 vs. 1 with equal pilot skill, the K4 will win every time.

Then add the 262 and Kurfurst gets his dream of Axis victory in 1945.

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43 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Push the stabilizer ahead in the K-4. 491 km/h IAS, and it can maintain that for 5 min longer and once in combat power, its again about 20 km/h IAS faster than P-47's(again shorter) combat power level speed. RPM can be manually increased to achieve more speed at the cost of WEP timer - just a bit more and its faster while still having more than P-47's 5 min of WEP.

 

And so what?

 

Just counted for what long the WEP lasts on those settings and alt... could run whole 15m of the water supply - it actually runs out and then engine lowers its output! Not that surprising because it's at lower MP/rpm (60-61"/2510rpm) than the max (64"/2700rpm) which is possible only when lower.

 

And one more test:

K4 @ 25% of fuel - 491km/h

P-47D @ 25% of fuel, 6 guns - 490km/h

 

K4? So what? A marginal performance advantage if at all when at high altitude, compared to much bigger and twice as heavy airplane. That's really something...

Edited by Ehret

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I don't necessarily buy into the K4 being God Mode... Perhaps at the moment it is.    A well a well flown 51 will give it a run for it's money but better yet MKIV Spits and at lower Alts the boosted 25 Spits will be very competitive if and when we get them.  Hint hint nudge nudge...  In terms of this sim and MP we aren't playing to how these machines were actually used.  MP makes everything very Tactical in nature. 

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K4 should not be liberally available on any server, let's take that as the baseline. Getting jumped by a 109 from an inferior position in a 1v1 will always be bad, though at that point a G14 isn't very much better for something like a 47 compared to the K.

 

The key for the 47 is its initial turn, guns and ammo count. If you can engage with initiative I've found it's able to reliably end the fight in one pass. There's just no getting out of that hose of steel if your gunnery is decent. Even with energy advantage running from a P47 is sketchy, plenty of 109s that try zoom climbs because they have some separation end up having a very bad day. The P47 is super stable and can hang on its prop with the best of them,  and its guns are dangerous at ranges beyond anything else. And you don't have to be shy about trying with the ammo count like with Yaks.

 

That said, if you get caught in a close duel without alt against a 109 you die. But I don't think thats a shocker.

Edited by =RvE=Windmills
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27 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:

How is the high speed handling of the K4? Improved at all, or standard 109? 

My initial impressions are that it's very good at medium to high speeds, dependant on altitude.

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1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

And so what? P-47 gets that close in a very narrow altitude band. At low altitudes its basically meat on the table(speed difference is around 45 km/h at WEP) in every respect, and in an even duel P-47 loses even if that duel begins at 7000 m. This is like saying P-39 is as good as 190 because they're about equally fast at 3000 m.

 

That's wrong - the Airacobra has an advantage at the 3000m. 50% fuel, removed 0.30", rads at 60/45 (water/oil) and just combat power gives 506km/h and emergency 522km/h. The A3 manages 486km/h at combat and 501km/h at emergency.

 

edit: should be "60/45" instead of "60/40".

Edited by Ehret

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