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7 1/2 Hour War Emergency Test of Pratt&Whitney R-2800 26 April 1944

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54 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Even War Thunder and Il2 1946 are painting a more realistic picture regarding relative performance between aircraft, then BoX does right now. The sole reason is the odd and entirely unrealistic engine limit mechanic.

I would have to agree. It's pretty bad when warthunder does something better than a "realistic" sim like Il2.

Edited by Legioneod
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32 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I would have to agree. It's pretty bad when warthunder does something better than a "realistic" sim like Il2.

War thunder did the most realistic vision system I have even seen. And the rest of the game is complete cheese

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32 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I would have to agree. It's pretty bad when warthunder does something better than a "realistic" sim like Il2.

 

There was (perhaps still is) a very nice little known trick for Mustangs in the WT. The Meredith effect was implemented in a very simplistic way - the drag remained the same no matter how you set radiators so there was only one setting which made sense - 100% open all the time. That's about WT realism but yup - you could get an "early" level plane like A-36/P-51A or F4u-1a (especially the USMC variant) and go one, or even two WT's tiers higher and still be able to club.

For other US planes (usually) a good idea was to close radiators, go fully open throttle but reduce your RPM to about 75-80%. It would lower thermals so much the engine wouldn't overheat and lowered drag made up for slightly lower HP. (and club again)

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5 min of WEP should be more then enough for any dogfight. German planes need to go into continuous in order to recharge their supply of emergancy power not combat settings, same with all the other planes that have a combat setting. P-47 like all planes gives you some wiggle room, there is a randomness to it, and after 5 mins you have an extra 1-3 minutes before your engine damages. If you've engaged in a fight where you need to use more then 5 minutes of WEP you've made a tactical error and should have disengaged a long time ago.

I think it's silly that peope are expecting a heavy medium range escort fighter to go toe to toe, one on one with a short range light interceptor with a much better power to weight ratio like the 109 for extended periods of time. 

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1 minute ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

I think it's silly that peope are expecting a heavy medium range escort fighter to go toe to toe, one on one with a short range light interceptor with a much better power to weight ratio like the 109 for extended periods of time. 

 

The heavy fighter has a much bigger, and more robust engine, an inter-cooler plus 15m supply of the ADI. At 23K ft climb rates, thanks to the turbo, equalizes so does the power-loading. A better oil, fuels and stuff like bearings, too.

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30 minutes ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

 German planes need to go into continuous in order to recharge their supply of emergancy power not combat settings, same with all the other planes that have a combat setting.

You know it is very easy to disprove these asinine statements?
Run both the K-4 and F-4 on a map and time them. Both aircraft get the timer exceeded warning at 10 and 1 minute respectively. Power down to combat power. 10 minutes later for both aircraft you get the WEP recovered message.

Edited by RoflSeal
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19 hours ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

German planes need to go into continuous in order to recharge their supply of emergancy power not combat settings, same with all the other planes that have a combat setting.

 

This is [edited]

Feel free to test the G-14 and K-4 though. 

 

EDIT: Or watch this test I made: https://streamable.com/ay7rv

 

[edited]

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Way to personal. Respect other members opinions.
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Meanwhile if you run the P-47 at WEP, you get the timer exceeded message at the 5 minute mark, as expected. Power down to combat power. You get the combat power exceeded message 5 minutes later.-


You know what that means? You can't even get your 15 minutes of manual mandated combat power if you touch WEP at all.

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2 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

Meanwhile if you run the P-47 at WEP, you get the timer exceeded message at the 5 minute mark, as expected. Power down to combat power. You get the combat power exceeded message 5 minutes later.-


You know what that means? You can't even get your 15 minutes of manual mandated combat power if you touch WEP at all.

 

Proven here: https://streamable.com/6s2ah

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1231660144_Screenshot2018-12-18at16_35_48.png.75febab502239d5db1857337aba1e718.png

 

Above are maximum speeds at power for the P-47 vs the Bf109K-4 at 3km/9000ft.

 

Assuming equal engagement:

 

The K-4 spends the first 9 minutes 80kph faster than the P-47. This is enough time to fly 12km away in a straight line (22m/s differential x 540 seconds)

 

Assuming the P-47 had an altitude advantage and somehow managed to stay with the K-4, both planes now go to WEP. During the P-47's 5 minute WEP timer the K-4 is able to pull ahead another 5km (16m/s differential x 300 seconds).

 

Now the P-47 has to come off both WEP and combat the speed difference increases further. The K-4 flies 13km away in a straight line during the subsequent 5 minutes (44.4ms x 300 seconds)

 

EDIT: The blue line represents a more likely scenario of the P-47 pilot going to WEP for 5 minutes, reducing to combat and finding his engine has blown after 9 minutes at which point he was still unable to close distance to the K-4.

 

EDIT 2: Green line representing a historical P-47 performance. It's still not a super plane but it has a smaller time-at-power delta for the enemy planes to exploit. Nobody is asking for the P-47D to become a non-historical rocketplane. It will still be slow, just a bit less slow.

 

1447354034_Screenshot2018-12-18at16_45_53.png.a5806d7376a6bf5fed016cb57e90ef0d.png

Edited by Talon_
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Sorry my mistake. I did forget that you do recharge emergancy power at combat setting at a very slow rate..as you said 10 minutes. I just never in practice do this because it is much better to make sure that you go to continuous where you can get it back fully in 3-5 minutes. However this is because I don't get into prolonged engagements and rarely use full boost for more then a few seconds in the earlier 109s and only for about 2 minutes in a 190 unless it's a A8, and very rarely had I ever had to use more then 5 minutes of MW 50 in the K4 or G14. If that is not the case with the P-47 that it doesn't recharge in combat then it should be changed to reflect the other planes. However the fact is that if your in an engagement for more then 5 minutes you've probably not made the best choice

Edited by =SqSq=CrazyGman

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7 minutes ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

Sorry my mistake. I did forget that you do recharge emergancy power at combat setting at a very slow rate..as you said 10 minutes. I just never in practice do this because it is much better to make sure that you go to continuous where you can get it back fully in 3-5 minutes. However this is because I don't get into prolonged engagements and rarely use full boost for more then a few seconds. And never had I ever had to use more then 5 minutes of MW 50 in the K4 or G14. If that is not the case with the P-47 that it doesn't recharge in combat then it should be changed to reflect the other planes. However the fact is that if your in an engagement for more then 5 minutes you've probably not made the best choice

What sort of argument is that?
"Oh I see, P-47 is not even getting it's full manual mandated combat power, but l2p noob." while he effortlessly runs away with his 50kph speed advantage and his generous engine modelling.

Disengagement is rarely an option in the P-47 unlike the magical K-4 with 1.98 ata.

 

Never mind the fact that if we are looking at it historically, high combat powers were meant to be used for 15-20 minutes, 15 minutes worth of water was there for a reason.

Edited by RoflSeal

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Just now, RoflSeal said:

What sort of argument is that?
"Oh I see, P-47 is not even getting it's full manual mandated combat power, but l2p noob."

Disengagement is rarely an option in the P-47 unlike the magical K-4 with 1.98 ata.

Really P-40s do it all the time. It's called picking your fight, and having support. 1 on 1 yeah you might be screwed if you have no place to go and deep over enemy lines, but even if you got exactly what your asking for in the P-47 you would still be screwed. 

Edited by =SqSq=CrazyGman

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7 minutes ago, =SqSq=CrazyGman said:

Really P-40s do it all the time. It's called picking your fight, and having support. 1 on 1 yeah you might be screwed if you have no place to go and deep over enemy lines, but even if you got exactly what your asking for in the P-47 you would still be screwed. 

Stop trying to change the argument to something that is completely unrelated to engine modelling. At least it shows you were proven oh so wrong.

 

Saying "but this, but that, muh teamwork" doesn't change the fact... you're wrong.

Do you seriously think that German squads don't do any team work as well? What are the numerous JG squadrons out there for then?

Edited by RoflSeal
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18 hours ago, Panthera said:

Best compromise IMHO is:

 

DB605 (1.42 ata cleared):

WEP = 5 min (1.42ata) & 10 min with MW50 (1.7 - 1.98ata)

Combat power = indefinite (recharges fully drained WEP in 3 min)

 

RR Merlin:

WEP = 5 min (18-25 psi)

Combat power = indefinite (recharges fully drained WEP in 3 min)

 

BMW801:

WEP = 3 min (1.42ata) & 10 min at 1.58/65 ata for later versions (A8) with larger oil cooler, different vents & spark plugs

Combat power = indefinite (recharges fully drained WEP in 3 min)

 

P&W R2800:

WEP = 10 min with water injection (64" Hg)

Combat power = indefinite (recharges fully drained WEP in 3 min)

 

Packard V-1650:

WEP = 5 min (67-75" Hg) 

Combat power = indefinite (recharges fully drained WEP in 3 min)

Or maybe just set combat power to indefinate, keep the current WEP timers and make the current continuous mode add a reserve on the current time limit.

 

Say you fly with continuous mode for 1 minute, you get 30 seconds on top of the current WEP time limit (or some other ratio). Would probably make people fly with continuous mode even if combat power would be indefinite (without actually forcing them to do so), because you might benefit for the extra time. Would also kind of simulate the pilot trying to prevent unnecessary engine wear when they don't need combat power or full power.

 

I'm not saying that this would be realistic.

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12 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm not saying that this would be realistic.

 

It's the same we have for the La-5 (not F) now. One timer and simple rules. Works and doesn't irritate as much.

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I think 1min WEP times until engine damage are a lot more unrealistic the 30min combat time and thus they should be adressed the same way. 10min should be the minimum for every WEP (apart from the forbidden full boost mode of the P40)

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Anyone aware if the P47 vs G14/K4 timers have been brought up in the Russian forums? If yes/no, is there anyone who could get a discussion going there?

 

Might be more productive then doing it in this thread.

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4 hours ago, =RvE=Windmills said:

Anyone aware if the P47 vs G14/K4 timers have been brought up in the Russian forums? If yes/no, is there anyone who could get a discussion going there?

 

Might be more productive then doing it in this thread.

 

It's old news for me, and the Russian thread is citing much of the same resources that were linked here, IIRC. The guys over there are equally dismayed about the state of things.

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On 12/18/2018 at 5:02 PM, RoflSeal said:

Stop trying to change the argument to something that is completely unrelated to engine modelling. At least it shows you were proven oh so wrong.

 

Saying "but this, but that, muh teamwork" doesn't change the fact... you're wrong.

Do you seriously think that German squads don't do any team work as well? What are the numerous JG squadrons out there for then?

[edited]

 

This was supposed to be for the 5min WEP 5min combat thing, but I grabbed the wrong quote lol

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
rule 7

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33 minutes ago, Bert_Foster said:

Is their documentation that lists exactly how these timers work in game ?

Nothing official like say from the devs AFAIK, all just ingame testing.
As far as I know there are 3 types of timers

Single time-limited power setting

This applies to Russian aircraft such as the IL-2, MiG-3 and La-5s. Their timer recharges after 10-15 minutes in continuous.

 

Two power settings - seperate timers.

Applies only to Bf-109s. The two timers are separate and recharge when not in use irrespective of the other,, in other words WEP recharges while using combat power. WEP takes 10 minutes to recharge.

 

Two power settings - same timer

This applies to every other aircraft, FW-190, every allied aircraft. WEP counts down not only it's own timer, but also the combat power timer. Combat power recharges only when WEP is recharged, WEP recharges only in continuous power. Using full WEP also uses up about 2/3s of combat power time.

 

In the FW-190 this means after 3 minutes of WEP, you have 10 minutes of combat power. In the Allied Aircraft using all 5 minutes of WEP means having only 5 minutes of combat power.

 

Edited by RoflSeal

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Provided you open the cooling gills wider than you would ever need to in real life, in the FW190A-8 timer is 1.42ata overheat after 3 minutes...but also 1.58 and 1.65ata for 10 minutes with boost engaged.

 

Yes, you read that right.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, CUJO_1970 said:

Yes, you read that right.

 

Not only the FW exhibits such behavior... the P-39 overheats at any provocation, too. On summer maps it's not possible to do hard climbs; forget about any continuous turning. You can overheat in (!!) winter, even, after 3-4 merges in closer dogfight.

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I had a P39 seize on take off today.  I was shocked.  That never happened before.  It's just so frustrating to the point that the only US plane I now will fly is the A20.

 

Know this, if the P51 is as fragile as the US aircraft (A20 excepted) are so far, there will be riots.

 

Be sure.

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2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I had a P39 seize on take off today.  I was shocked.  That never happened before.  It's just so frustrating to the point that the only US plane I now will fly is the A20.

 

Know this, if the P51 is as fragile as the US aircraft (A20 excepted) are so far, there will be riots.

 

Be sure.

 

Is it just me, or is “Stang Riot” a killer band name?

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7 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I had a P39 seize on take off today.  I was shocked.  That never happened before.  It's just so frustrating to the point that the only US plane I now will fly is the A20.

 

Know this, if the P51 is as fragile as the US aircraft (A20 excepted) are so far, there will be riots.

 

Be sure.

 

Also belive that when 51 comes solution to strange timers and recharges and what not will get found, as its easy to have it like this when its 39 or 40 in question and not many ppl care, but give same mess of engine limits to most iconic usa ww2 airplane and will be riots like you say.

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9 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I had a P39 seize on take off today.  I was shocked.  That never happened before.  It's just so frustrating to the point that the only US plane I now will fly is the A20.

 

Know this, if the P51 is as fragile as the US aircraft (A20 excepted) are so far, there will be riots.

 

Be sure.

 

Likely, but it's important to be constructive about it, propose alternatives rather than just scream about it. It is a big undertaking for them to overhaul the system in its entirety, even if restricting it to just Bodenplatte planes.

 

Moreso due to any revisions likely being temporary pending a thorough rework of engine fatigue. Which I would assume is currently not possible while also working on this expansion.

Edited by =RvE=Windmills

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10 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I had a P39 seize on take off today.  I was shocked.  That never happened before.  It's just so frustrating to the point that the only US plane I now will fly is the A20.

 

Know this, if the P51 is as fragile as the US aircraft (A20 excepted) are so far, there will be riots.

 

Be sure.

 

Considering it shares the Spitfire IX's engine, it won't be that fragile.

 

Except of course it only gets 15 minutes at Combat power while the Spitfire gets 1 hour.

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55 minutes ago, =RvE=Windmills said:

Likely, but it's important to be constructive about it, propose alternatives rather than just scream about it. It is a big undertaking for them to overhaul the system in its entirety, even if restricting it to just Bodenplatte planes.

 

Jason said that the team have an idea however they don't have enough time now. No wonder considering all the stuff they are working on. Once the BOBP is officially released the issue could get more attention, hopefully.

 

12 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Considering it shares the Spitfire IX's engine, it won't be that fragile.

 

Except of course it only gets 15 minutes at Combat power while the Spitfire gets 1 hour.

 

Excellent point! The same engine - different limits in practice?! Why?

Perhaps not the same 100% but V-1650s weren't worse than British build Merlins so the point stands.

Edited by Ehret

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

Considering it shares the Spitfire IX's engine, it won't be that fragile.

 

Except of course it only gets 15 minutes at Combat power while the Spitfire gets 1 hour.

 

But right here we have a problem.  The Allison V1710 is physically a VERY robust engine, and has a much stronger bottom end than the Merlin, to the point where V1710 connecting rods are the rods of choice for Merlins used in unlimited air racing.   P39s, P40s, and soon the P38, all blowing engines after stupidly short times and lower boost levels than the Merlin just flies totally in the face of logic and reality.

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5 hours ago, Ehret said:

Jason said that the team have an idea however they don't have enough time now. No wonder considering all the stuff they are working on. Once the BOBP is officially released the issue could get more attention, hopefully.

 

I agree, though I would think a temporary exception would be good for the most restricted planes until we get to that point.

 

I have total faith in the devs eventually completely addressing this situation, but the release and the time leading up to it is still very important. It would be a shame to have the US planes marred like this until far beyond release.

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12 hours ago, Ehret said:

Excellent point! The same engine - different limits in practice?! Why?

Perhaps not the same 100% but V-1650s weren't worse than British build Merlins so the point stands.

 

The Mustang gets 61" at 3000rpm for 15 minute Combat power. This is ~15lbs boost in the Spitfire.

 

Try it yourself and the engine blows after 7 minutes.

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12 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

The Mustang gets 61" at 3000rpm for 15 minute Combat power. This is ~15lbs boost in the Spitfire.

 

Try it yourself and the engine blows after 7 minutes.

 

Meanwhile, IRL:

 

Spoiler

353-hinchey-14nov44.jpg

15 minutes at 74"

 

Spoiler

361-webb-25june44.jpg

8 minutes at 70", assuming 600 kph CAS near SL.

 

But let's break the engine after 5 minutes at 67", let's see how that's going to end. :P

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I think it’s a bit of a gamble to rely on sorting it out post-release.

At this point BoBo is still in early access so we can expect a degree of tweaking in response to feedback. 

 

The full release is likely to get loads more coverage and attract a new audience interested in the US and UK/Commonwealth aircraft new to BoBo. If the engine modelling for the western aircraft in particular is still very conservative, there’s a risk this will result in poor first impressions. 

All it takes is for enough people new to the sim to try the Mustang or the P-47 for ten minutes and blow the engine while 1.98 ata Kurfursts breeze past them with no issues, and there would be a load of negative reviews.

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