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Champagne

Camel vs Dr.I: My assessment.

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The Camel seems faster and more maneuverable than the Dr.I.  So, the Fokker won't be able to run away from a fight and when the fight arrives, the Camel will out turn the Fokker. 

 

I'll be flying against the AI Camels when I fly my Fokker Triplane!

 

SALUTE !

 

 

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I would have said both were pretty evenly matched.  When I fly either I tend to win against the other, not the A.I is that much of a challenge, even on Ace, if you discount for their occasional sharp shooting.  The clever Camel pilot will better be able to choose or avoid his fights with DR1's though.  That said bullets fly faster and can accurately  carry further distances than might be assumed from WW1 anecdotes so it helps level out differences in performance.

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It's barely a contest.  The 195 kmh Camel has near complete control of the engagement.

 

The only thing keeping it close at all is the sniper-like accuracy of the machine guns that we're enjoying right now.

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I'll need to test the Camel against one of the remaining Dr1 heroes, if any of them purchase Flying Circus after reading this :ph34r:.

The bots are no guage at all.

 

S!

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4 minutes ago, Champagne said:

The Camel jockeys are going to dominate the would-be Manfreds of the world.

NOt once the Dr.I gets some of it Kraft back.

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So attack only when you have the advantage of numbers, height and sun: you know, just like the Germans did.  

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And there we go, the boche whining already :ph34r:

Edited by West

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Is it me or is anyone else having trouble just getting the little blighters to attack each other in the QMB?

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I think it's the Thanksgiving weekend truce, only with odd shaped balls, oh and supposedly you're allowed to pick it up and run with it.........evidently.  :lol:

Edited by HagarTheHorrible

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1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

I think it's the Thanksgiving weekend truce, only with odd shaped balls, oh and supposedly you're allowed to pick it up and run with it.........evidently.  :lol:

 

     Did not the game of Rugby evolve from the custom of Scots stealing other peoples Haggis?🐑

 

P.S. Happy St. Andrew's Day!

Edited by Arfsix
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1 hour ago, Arfsix said:

 

     Did not the game of Rugby evolve from the custom of Scots stealing other peoples Haggis?🐑

 

P.S. Happy St. Andrew's Day!

Balls

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3 hours ago, West said:

And there we go, the boche whining already :ph34r:

 

How exactly is it a whine?  The camel has a substantial edge.  If you disagree, explain to us how it doesn't.

 

Besides, we all know that the real bochewhiners are the DR1 pilots who cry when SPADs won't turn with them.  ;)

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr
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16 hours ago, Champagne said:

The Camel seems faster and more maneuverable than the Dr.I.  So, the Fokker won't be able to run away from a fight and when the fight arrives, the Camel will out turn the Fokker. 

 

I'll be flying against the AI Camels when I fly my Fokker Triplane!

 

SALUTE !

 

To give you a neutral context, both the Camel and the Dr.1 were nerfed in 2014 in ROF. Then they ported to Flying Circus the same nerfed Dr.1 in the first two planes to be released (together with the Spad 13), and it can reach 168km/h of its original pre-nerfing 179km/h in ROF. Then they ported the unerfed Camel a couple days ago, which can reach 195km/h of its original pre-nerfing 190km/h in ROF.

 

So you basically have two planes that are not in the same universe. The time I played with the FC Camel in multiplayer, I could go around the Dr.1 [flown by players] like the Moon going around the Earth.

 

Petrovich  (devs) said that the Dr.1 is under his attention and could be corrected son.

 

For the time being, there is no point on evaluating the two birds in combat. Perform-wise, they belong to two different contexts / games. You can play around in single player, but like it was mentioned, you can't access relative performance this way.

 

Cheers,

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17 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

For the time being, there is no point on evaluating the two birds in combat. Perform-wise, they belong to two different contexts / games. You can play around in single player, but like it was mentioned, you can't access relative performance this way.

Sounds about right! We'll see what happens when the Dr.I is FC-ified...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chill31 said:

What is the basis for a Camel that can do 194 kmh?  

 

Technically speaking, the Camel which we have now IS the pre-1.034 Rise of Flight Camel, only the measurement differs. In RoF its top speed was measured at 190km/h, in FC it is 195km/h. To be honest, I'm having trouble getting her far past 190, but I know she can do it. In many ways, it is still the same camel as the one still present in RoF, only its tach goes up to 1400RPM in level flight at sea level.

 

@AnPetrovich has given us the data of these Camels (including some with Clerget 9Bf 140hp) in this post in the other thread:

 

 

In the post below that, besides thanking him, I've also asked him if he could work more closely together with you, especially in painting a clearer picture of the Dr.I and Camel performance.

 

I do indeed find the Camel's performance figure somewhat optimistic. Somewhere in between 185 and 190km/h at sea level is where the Belgian Military Aviation has her, not far past the Hanriot HD.1 (equipped with Le Rhone 9Jb 120hp), whose top speed is 184km/h.

 

Personally, I'm hoping we get the pre-1.034 178km/h Fokker Dr.I back.

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Are you guys doing PvP dogfight tests with the Camel or vs ai? 

We ran a few fights in MP yesterday and found the Camel seems to lose energy very quickly while maneuvering fairly hard. 

In fact to me, all the FC planes do so more than RoF.

 

Against the current Pfalz, with both planes at med-high fuel loads, the victor was nearly always the plane that had the initial height advantage and held onto it and didn't make dumb mistakes. Prop hangs became a high risk tactic as energy bled off quickly.

 

I found myself fairly happy to take on a Camel flown by a good pilot if I had initial advantage. I know it's just anecdotal, and agree the specs should be right, but would like to hear the experience of the real Camel jocks PvP with current planes.

 

Edited by US103_Baer
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1 hour ago, US103_Baer said:

In fact to me, all the FC planes do so more than RoF.

That is why both faster Camels and faster Dr.I will not make other aircraft redundant in a way they did „pre-patch RoF“. I find FC a dramatic improvement over good pld RoF.

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11 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

How exactly is it a whine?  The camel has a substantial edge.  If you disagree, explain to us how it doesn't.

 

Besides, we all know that the real bochewhiners are the DR1 pilots who cry when SPADs won't turn with them.  ;)

 

Just a reminder of 2010 & old ROF: again, already LOL

It is getting OLD )))

Probably like me.

So back to planes that dont have edges )))

... petrol locks and butterfly-wings?😎

 

But hé all still in WIP so quite a stretch to go.

 

Edited by West

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10 hours ago, Hellbender said:

I do indeed find the Camel's performance figure somewhat optimistic. Somewhere in between 185 and 190km/h at sea level is where the Belgian Military Aviation has her, not far past the Hanriot HD.1 (equipped with Le Rhone 9Jb 120hp), whose top speed is 184km/h.

 

Personally, I'm hoping we get the pre-1.034 178km/h Fokker Dr.I back.

 

190kmh for a Bentley Camel is plausible, and I wouldn't have a problem with that.  Start pushing 195, and I think we are getting into fantasy land.   

 

I asked one of my friends who has flown the Clerget Camel "How fast did you get your Camel going?"  "I don't know.  I was too scared to look!" 🤣

 

I should have some accurate speeds for the Dr.I in Jan-Feb. Probably Feb.  My Dr.I as it is configured does 107 mph (172 kmh), and I don't expect it to be any slower with the 80 Rhone or 120 Rhone.  We shall see however!

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35 minutes ago, Chill31 said:

I asked one of my friends who has flown the Clerget Camel "How fast did you get your Camel going?"  "I don't know.  I was too scared to look!" 

 

I should have some accurate speeds for the Dr.I in Jan-Feb. Probably Feb.  My Dr.I as it is configured does 107 mph (172 kmh), and I don't expect it to be any slower with the 80 Rhone or 120 Rhone.  We shall see however!

 

Here’s an opportunity to go above and beyond the call of duty and make the ultimate sacrifice so that flightsimmers everywhere have a slighty more optimised experience. All you need to do is fly half a wingspan above sea level on a calm day at exactly 15C and you continue at full throttle either till your engine quits or you are intercepted by the Coast Guard — the airspeed indicator might just read close to 180 before you crash into the water.

 

S! and Godspeed!

 

But seriously, if your Dr.I does 172km/h under normal circumstances, which seems completely reasonable, then I’m going to assume that a Camel would reach 180km/h under similar circumstances. That’s not a made up number, it’s what the Belgians said its top speed was. Incidentally also that of the Hanriot HD.1 and Nieuport 24. Clearly no one felt like pushing those machines to their utmost limits for science. Casuals.

 

(please, please, please have a look at those numbers @AnPetrovich posted and compare them how you could extrapolate your 172km/h to sea level)

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3 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

But seriously, if your Dr.I does 172km/h under normal circumstances, which seems completely reasonable, then I’m going to assume that a Camel would reach 180km/h under similar circumstances.

 

He's currently not flying with a rotary 110hp engine. The tendency is that the torque and prop dimensions will give it more speed. Abbott says on The Aerodrome: "Ross Walton told me it's a world of difference in the performance of Fok.DR.I originally with a Warner and now with the 110 Le Rhone. The small diameter propellers turning at high rpms are not as efficient as the slower turning larger diameter propellers". Then you cannot base relative performance with this data, unless you make calculations to approximate to the rotary performance.

 

But like he said, we shall see. I'm curious.

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This talk of sniping worries me.

if you can regularly damage/kill  at WWII-esque distances of 300 meters or so that distorts the entire dynamic. In particular hit and run fighters will struggle if they are trying to get out of range of guns with WWII effective range with WWI speed margins. Will have to see what develops now before I make the final decision on purchase.

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Out of blind interest, would a tri-plane not - generally - generate more form drag than a bi-plane  straight and level? So Camel / Dr.1 under equal conditions at low altitude with the same hp see the Camel with a small speed advantage (as well as dive and zoom)? Sustained climb etc being a different calculation and at low speed likely lying with the Fokker.

 

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To those that have noted that the FC Camel seems to have no gyroscopic forces working, I think I agree. I can fly my FC Camel hands-free from the joystick, sort of like one would fly a more stable airplane like a SPAD or Albatros. Seems weird to me, but, what do I know?

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41 minutes ago, Champagne said:

To those that have noted that the FC Camel seems to have no gyroscopic forces working, I think I agree. I can fly my FC Camel hands-free from the joystick, sort of like one would fly a more stable airplane like a SPAD or Albatros. Seems weird to me, but, what do I know?

 

That's not good to hear.  Don't have a link for you, but maybe HagarTheHorrible does, because he's the one who linked it here on this forum:  It's a presentation by the late Javiar Arango on the Camel, who gave a very vivid description of what the Camel should feel like, and that will maybe give you a better basis to make a judgement on it.

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Oh, I'm sure that the game development team will figure it out, Sea Serpent, I'm not concerned.

 

I'd like to mention how much I enjoy the Camel's 10 o'clock high visibility compared to the Dr.I. The Camel has that wing opening, but the Dr.I doesn't. That is one HUGE blind spot there in the Dr.I !  

 

 

2 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Out of blind interest, would a tri-plane not - generally - generate more form drag than a bi-plane  straight and level? So Camel / Dr.1 under equal conditions at low altitude with the same hp see the Camel with a small speed advantage (as well as dive and zoom)? Sustained climb etc being a different calculation and at low speed likely lying with the Fokker.

 

 

All other things being equal, yes, but, I think that things like wing chord cause variations. 

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17 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

That's not good to hear.  Don't have a link for you, but maybe HagarTheHorrible does, because he's the one who linked it here on this forum:  It's a presentation by the late Javiar Arango on the Camel, who gave a very vivid description of what the Camel should feel like, and that will maybe give you a better basis to make a judgement on it.

 

Here you go :

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showpost.php?p=727549&postcount=8

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My experience flying the FC Camel is that it is very stable in level flight. One hardly need touch the stick as the plane flies along a straight path. In fact, for many seconds, the stick was untouched. I didn't touch it at all. 

 

Plane is maybe very slightly nose-heavy and wants to slowly point downward when flying with no hands on the stick.

 

Nice power. Plane turns and loops very well. Loops, I note, are more easy than with the Dr.I because of the Camel's superior engine power.

 

It doesn't take much of a fast dive to over rev and blow the engine, however.

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2 hours ago, Champagne said:

My experience flying the FC Camel is that it is very stable in level flight. One hardly need touch the stick as the plane flies along a straight path. In fact, for many seconds, the stick was untouched. I didn't touch it at all. 

 

Plane is maybe very slightly nose-heavy and wants to slowly point downward when flying with no hands on the stick.

 

Are you using an FFB joystick or have you trimmed it externally?

 

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7 hours ago, Champagne said:

 

All other things being equal, yes, but, I think that things like wing chord cause variations. 

 

Sure, I was being terribly simple. I vaguely recall that wing interference (or lack of it in better designs) was also a contributing factor to drag and general performance inhibition.

 

i simply have difficulty picturing a 110hp Venetian blind moving very fast.

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9 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

That's not good to hear.  Don't have a link for you, but maybe HagarTheHorrible does, because he's the one who linked it here on this forum:  It's a presentation by the late Javiar Arango on the Camel, who gave a very vivid description of what the Camel should feel like, and that will maybe give you a better basis to make a judgement on it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QySuR3GyQSo&feature=youtu.be&t=2461

 

Anyone wanting to opine on the Camel on the basis of pilot accounts or Wikipedia entries really should watch this first. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

 

Are you using an FFB joystick or have you trimmed it externally?

 

 

Using a FFB stick (G940) with the spring centering turned off I get the same slight nose heaviness noted by Champagne even with full fuel.  I am going to try a little spring force and see what that does.

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I use a MSFF2 and no way will my Camel fly hands off! 

 

I have to push the nose down all the time and if I let go it goes up for the stars. 

 

It is very unstable and seems to fly just like I read it is supposed to.  Rather difficult to fly and that is why I like it. 

 

Perhaps some people are flying easy settings or with joystick curves/modifications that avoid replicating the developers flight modelling intentions.

 

I just don't understand the easy to fly comments.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

I use a MSFF2 and no way will my Camel fly hands off! 

 

I have to push the nose down all the time and if I let go it goes up for the stars. 

 

It is very unstable and seems to fly just like I read it is supposed to.  Rather difficult to fly and that is why I like it. 

 

Perhaps some people are flying easy settings or with joystick curves/modifications that avoid replicating the developers flight modelling intentions.

 

I just don't understand the easy to fly comments.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

No, I am really not. I am flying on Expert (plus external views), without any joystick modification program using the default BoX curves, same as I always do, and yes I have checked. 

 

The Dr.1 is certainly tail heavy, although it will fly level if you reduce speed.  On the Camel I get a very slight nose heaviness when flying level: but it will sit hands off if I pitch it into a gentle climb.  This is all with FFB enabled and with very weak spring centre force.  I suspect that is the variable that explains the different results. To make it loop I need back pressure: but not much, the pitch is very responsive and light.

 

I just wish there was a piece of string tied to the cockpit somewhere to give me a visual indication of slip.

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18 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

 

Are you using an FFB joystick or have you trimmed it externally?

 

Yes, I have the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB version with the red lighted buttons and the rubberized joystick handle. No trimming whatsoever. The aircraft are flown as presented by the game developer. I barely know how to set the Cockpit view. Even with Rise of Flight, I didn't set trim for any aircraft. I saw the x/y graph in the RoF settings and said to myself: "Nah, I'll leave that alone".

16 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Sure, I was being terribly simple. I vaguely recall that wing interference (or lack of it in better designs) was also a contributing factor to drag and general performance inhibition.

 

i simply have difficulty picturing a 110hp Venetian blind moving very fast.

 

I agree. To me, the FC Dr.I feels like I'm piloting a Kite, not an airplane.

5 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

I use a MSFF2 and no way will my Camel fly hands off! 

 

I have to push the nose down all the time and if I let go it goes up for the stars. 

 

It is very unstable and seems to fly just like I read it is supposed to.  Rather difficult to fly and that is why I like it. 

 

Perhaps some people are flying easy settings or with joystick curves/modifications that avoid replicating the developers flight modelling intentions.

 

I just don't understand the easy to fly comments.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

I don't understand. We have the same stick on the same settings and have different results. 

 

I have another observation that's strange: the Camel is supposed to be tough to turn Left. The FC Camel turns Left with ease, MUCH more easy than turning the FC Dr.I to the Left. 

 

One final observation of mine: once the Camel is in a spin I cannot get out of it no matter what I do -- I'm going to crash and burn into terrain. It is a totally helpless and awful feeling. BUT, so long as I maneuver carefully, it's an easy stable flight that reminds me of a nice Albatros D III

Edited by Champagne

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4 hours ago, Champagne said:

 

 

I have another observation that's strange: the Camel is supposed to be tough to turn Left. The FC Camel turns Left with ease, MUCH more easy than turning the FC Dr.I to the Left. 

 

One final observation of mine: once the Camel is in a spin I cannot get out of it no matter what I do -- I'm going to crash and burn into terrain. It is a totally helpless and awful feeling. BUT, so long as I maneuver carefully, it's an easy stable flight that reminds me of a nice Albatros D III

 

Champagne, have you watched the video linked earlier yet? Arango demonstrates that the idea that the RealCamel is tough to turn to the left is a myth. It turns just as easily and quickly each way, provided that the plane is banked into the turn with the rudder. 

 

Agree about the spin though: I have not been able to get out of one yet.

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No. I haven't seen that entire video. It looks great. I didn't know that he covered the topic of the Camel's Left Turn. All I know about the topic is what we know from the literature from the war, where some say that it was more easy for a Camel pilot to turn 270 degrees to the right to turn left than it was to turn 90 degrees left.

 

You too? You can't get out of the spin? I was hoping you could tell me how to get out of the Camel's spin. 

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