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BlitzPig_EL

Quick thoughts after a bit of flying offline last night...

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10 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I know, that would be the limiting factor though imo, only 15min of water available, once it's gone you can no longer reach the higher MAP settings.

Or an objective type that requires the player to patrol at a certain altitude gap and area.

The best such objective would be some boxes of AI bombers the Germans are tasked with intercepting. It would give a meaningful use to the Fw-190 A8 and other absurdly heavily-armed variants that aren't really all that great for fighter-on-fighter. Just make sure the AI bombers aren't Death Stars, in fact they should if anything be a little soft so people are motivated to fly interceptor and so the work of the players doing the escort actually matters.
Of course you'll need some air starts (well behind the lines) because normal humans with the ability to feel boredom aren't into climbing from the deck to 30,000 feet at the outset of every sortie.
Edit: I like your idea about the limits. In general, forcing a shutoff of WEP rather than breaking the engine if you go a minute over (not really realistic) would be a superior solution.

Edited by CMBailey

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1 minute ago, Ehret said:

 

I yet to have to try the P-47D in multi-player but from doing few engagements through QMB the Jug isn't as problematic against the G-14/K4 as is implied by some. I tried "Ace" setting and starting altitude of 2000m and could achieve at least a parity against bots. Thought, against the K4 I needed to remove half of guns and it was tedious but not hopeless. (for all planes I set fuel loads to 50%)

 

MP will be more demanding but there will be time to climb and why to engage from disadvantageous positions? As long as you won't over-commit you should be fine in the Thunderbolt. It's possible to prevail flying the P-40 - why it should be any harder in the Jug?

Play against humans and you'll see, very difficult to fight against K4s at any altitude. The engine limits really lest the P-47 down imo.

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Just now, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Work very much in progress. Turbo limited to 22k. I think P-47 alright against earlier 109s. Its also a bit faster with only 6 or especially 4 guns. Fw 190's super high critical altitude at full ATA might have been fixed last patch, I still need to test it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

P47box.thumb.jpg.2a41f7513bdf7c2cce018fb749b4f07c.jpg

 

 

thats 1.8 k4 on charts?

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2 hours ago, CMBailey said:

Edit: I like your idea about the limits. In general, forcing a shutoff of WEP rather than breaking the engine if you go a minute over (not really realistic) would be a superior solution.

Only reason I suggested a limit of 15min is because thats all that was available, it was impossible to achieve WEP without water (safely anyways)

Edited by Legioneod

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Just now, 77.CountZero said:

 

thats 1.8 k4 on charts?

 

Yes. I didnt bother with 1.98 yet. Its already fastest plane in top speed at all altitudes and also all engine modes above 2500 m...

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21 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Well... the P-40 on fully open throttle develops (it feels like, at least) 70" MP and 1700hp for 15s. The P-39 on the full WEP has 1550hp for 2m but she is much more aerodynamic than the Kittyhawk. The point is the without timers, as artificial they are, the P-40/P-39 overall would be much, much better to the point ruining the game-play, probably. The Airacobra is already as fast in the level flight as the FN or G-14 but the short WEP ensures the former stays a step lower in performance category.

 

This shouldn't be done like that, sure, but other way would need detonation modelling in piston engines and inter-sortie wear and logistics. Maybe one day...

I don't say all aircraft should get max power indefinitely, especially the earlier US aircraft have some dangerously high settings - but the way it is now is way too conservative and makes plenty of aircraft perform less then it was the case in real life. 

The Airacobra was prefered over the Yak1b, Yak9 or La 5FN by many Russian pilots until the end of the war. Do you really think this would have been the case if it would have performed like in the game? It also could hold it's own against any German fighter until the end of the war (at low alt obviously). It was the mainstay figher in the Kuban area for a reason, but in game it's rather treated like an oddball, only the diehards and fanboys take it online, while all "wannabe Hartmanns" take the Yak1b or even worse, the La5FN. The P40 should also be a competent fighter on par with the Mig 3 (at low to med altitudes) while in game it is clearly the worst fighter, i'd even argue you are better of in an IL2-1941 in a knife fight. 

Il2 1946 resembles the real performance of those birds a lot better IMHO. The system is obviously as simple as the one in BoX, but the dogfight performance of aircraft in general seems a lot more plausible

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

and thats why 47 is exactly as i expected it to be in this game, to mutch effort around engine to be any use in game for anything more then GA, only few will stick with it online 

Link the controls and it is nearly as easy as the German planes.

Edited by Garven_Dreis
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7 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

The Airacobra was prefered over the Yak1b, Yak9 or La 5FN by many Russian pilots until the end of the war. Do you really think this would have been the case if it would have performed like in the game? It also could hold it's own against any German fighter until the end of the war (at low alt obviously). It was the mainstay figher in the Kuban area for a reason, but in game it's rather treated like an oddball, only the diehards and fanboys take it online, while all "wannabe Hartmanns" take the Yak1b or even worse, the La5FN.

 

I don't have much problems with the Airacobra in the MP. The short WEP is at times irritating but the paltry 200 rounds per 0.50" gun is much worse, imho. The P-39 is excellent for high speed (up to 450mph) instantaneous turns and single stage supercharger has a nice perk when facing 190s. Just avoid prolonged engagements and getting slow and low.

 

And yes - IRL the P-40/P-39 had other perks to be preferable to native VVS types than just performance. Such as good radios, ditch survivability, robust and quality construction.

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24 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Link the controls and it is nearly as easy as the German planes.

 

yes, I like the fact that you can link/un-link  throttle+turbo+RPM in game. 

 

so far, I see no reason to unlink unless at high altitude to prevent turbo overboost.

 

The P47 is actually easier to manage in combat than the P40/P39. You control everything with one lever and can push it to 100% (i.e. 56"/below turbo crtitical altitude) without having to worry about blowing up the engine. 65" WEP requires a separate button press. This allows you to keep an eye on the target without constanly worrying what your manifold pressure or RPM is.

Edited by Sgt_Joch
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57 minutes ago, Matt said:

If you take a break for 5 or 10 minutes (can't remember which right now), you again get 5 min of WEP. That's until you run out of water.

 

Works the same on the K-4 with MW-50.

 

For what I could test you need around 20 minutes of continuous power to reset WEP timer in the P-47

 

46 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

I don't say all aircraft should get max power indefinitely, especially the earlier US aircraft have some dangerously high settings - but the way it is now is way too conservative and makes plenty of aircraft perform less then it was the case in real life. 

The Airacobra was prefered over the Yak1b, Yak9 or La 5FN by many Russian pilots until the end of the war. Do you really think this would have been the case if it would have performed like in the game? It also could hold it's own against any German fighter until the end of the war (at low alt obviously). It was the mainstay figher in the Kuban area for a reason, but in game it's rather treated like an oddball, only the diehards and fanboys take it online, while all "wannabe Hartmanns" take the Yak1b or even worse, the La5FN. The P40 should also be a competent fighter on par with the Mig 3 (at low to med altitudes) while in game it is clearly the worst fighter, i'd even argue you are better of in an IL2-1941 in a knife fight. 

Il2 1946 resembles the real performance of those birds a lot better IMHO. The system is obviously as simple as the one in BoX, but the dogfight performance of aircraft in general seems a lot more plausible


I don't see it that way for the P-39, I do agree the P-40 could use a later clearance of 5 minutes at 57", but imho the time limits don't hurt the 39 with the V-1710-63 engine much:

P-39L's 5 minutes at 51" gives it good power and with that setting it's already equal or faster than the 109 (depending on variants) below 3000 meters, also being 5 min plus the extra random time you can use for a good while, generally up to 7-8 minutes. We also got 60" at 2 mins which isn't in the manual of that variant (I think it was included because of a Soviet technical table showing that power setting). And we have an automatic manifold pressure regulator which we shouldn't have, so it's more forgiving. It's a good diver and it's very good to catch German planes which are used to make use of their high diving speed to save themselves, which doesn't work against the P-39. This makes it a good team plane, to use drag and bag tactics with friends if coordinated, combine that with good radio quality and you can see it has good advantages IRL compared to say a Yak.

I feel safe in it thinking I can just run away diving or in a straight line at the deck from 109Gs.

From what I can tell from other people in the community and some squad mates, what discourages them the most of the P-39 is the lack of visibility in the 5 o clock and 7 o clock position because of the big canopy structure, this also emphasises teamwork, checking each other blind spots. Not very suitable for 1v1s which has a good influence on the MP meta, also given it doesn't turn that well (well it does turn pretty well at medium speeds, but once down and low it can't maneuver much against 109s) you could see how it isn't the most prefered plane around in the MP meta, although sometimes you see it often, more or less in similar numbers to La-5s

I would change our P-39L for a K variant so with the hydraulic propeller it's able to withstand better sudden power changes, with it's faster pitch adjust mechanism avoiding overreving a bit better.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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The Jug does seem like it will take some time to figure out.  Right now I can't see how in the hands of guys like Gabreski it was a very effective fighter.  

 

Also, the Camel seems much harder to control now than it was in ROF?  Anyone else find this to be true?

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3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:


The real let down is the P47, and before you all get the pitchforks and torches out, let me explain. As a ground attack bird it will work very well indeed. It's massive ammo loadout for the .50 cals, as well as it's under wing stores will make it very potent in that role. Just pray you have some La5FNs or Yaks for escort, because as a fighter it is going to be shredded online at any altitude that normally is "flown" in a video game. Yeah it's fast at 30,000ft. but, no one is up there. At 20.000ft. (7000 meters) which by game standards is a rarely populated altitude, a regular Bf109 G6, flown by an AI, simply out ran my P47, and I mean ran away and hid from me. I was using full turbo rpm, water injection, tried different prop pitch and cowl settings, to no avail.

I now wait for the P51 in hopes it will prove to be a real fighter, as the P47, as currently implemented, isn't.

 

I've been saying this all along, and don't get your hopes up for the P-51 or the P-38 either. All of the american planes are high altitude fighters, and don't do very well at low altitudes. The Dora will be the same way. While the Jug is definitely the worst offender here, don't expect much out of your Yankee planes until 1C creates a way for mission editors to have high altitude objectives.

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10 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I don't see it that way for the P-39, I do agree the P-40 could use a later clearance of 5 minutes at 57", but imho the time limits don't hurt the 39 with the V-1710-63 engine much:

P-39L's 5 minutes at 51" gives it good power and with that setting it's already equal or faster than the 109 (depending on variants) below 3000 meters, also being 5 min plus the extra random time you can use for a good while, generally up to 7-8 minutes. We also got 60" at 2 mins which isn't in the manual of that variant (I think it was included because of a Soviet technical table showing that power setting). And we have an automatic manifold pressure regulator which we shouldn't have, so it's more forgiving. It's a good diver and it's very good to catch German planes which are used to make use of their high diving speed to save themselves, which doesn't work against the P-39. This makes it a good team plane, to use drag and bag tactics with friends if coordinated, combine that with good radio quality and you can see it has good advantages IRL compared to say a Yak.

I feel safe in it thinking I can just run away diving or in a straight line at the deck from 109Gs.

From what I can tell from other people in the community and some squad mates, what discourages them the most of the P-39 is the lack of visibility in the 5 o clock and 7 o clock position because of the big canopy structure, this also emphasises teamwork, checking each other blind spots. Not very suitable for 1v1s which has a good influence on the MP meta, also given it doesn't turn that well (well it does turn pretty well at medium speeds, but once down and low it can't maneuver much against 109s) you could see how it isn't the most prefered plane around in the MP meta, although sometimes you see it often, more or less in similar numbers to La-5s

 

I got similar explanations back then, when the 190 was not right. People wrote long texts where it's good at and that you can be succesful in multiplayer with certain tactics. But that is not the point. I know you took some time to write this statement, so thanks for that, but not really anything in it i don't already know.

 

I didn't say it's bad as it is, it's just not as good as everything i read about this plane. The P39 is supposed to be the best fighter in the Kuban scenario but you can say what you want, that's just not the case in game. The strict performance settings hamper it in prolonged fights..also in a sustained turnfight.

I also thought (just to be clear, i am not sure about this anymore) it's a better turner then the 109-G (at any speed). I read quite a lot about this bird, and i might confuse something here, but i always had the impression that a turnfight against a 109 should be succesful in a Cobra. Correct me if i am wrong.

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43 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Link the controls and it is nearly as easy as the German planes.

True, but from what i can see having trottle and prop linked will not give you max speed in strait line, and for turbo it seams it doesent mather if its 100% all time so no need to link that i just have it 100% from start, so thats one less thing to wory atleast

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2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

 

Also, this was the first round of AI updates in a long time - so we should be rather happy about that!

Sorry if I cant sound thankfull, but the AI was the weak spot in this sim and it will be for a long time.

 

I did 8 missions in the career mode today, and the AI is still a mess.

 

AI still knows only on direction (La´s & BF109ers) LEFT,LEFT,LEFT..okay to be fair, there is a little variation in this...RIGHT,RIGHT,RIGHT.

Still no vertical maneuvers, not a single time.

AI still crashes into ground with no reason. I did simple scissors against BF109,AI brake off and dive into the ground. This happens multiple times.

AI still has visible problems to keep up in formation. Look at the bomber formations...

etc,etc..

 

Sorry to say that, but in therms of AI improvements,yes, they are there, but only very minor and the main AI issues are still prominent and this keeps the frustation level still high for me as a single player only.

 

It sounds disappointing? Yes, because it is what it is.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Semor76

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33 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

True, but from what i can see having trottle and prop linked will not give you max speed in strait line, and for turbo it seams it doesent mather if its 100% all time so no need to link that i just have it 100% from start, so thats one less thing to wory atleast

Is turbo damming/pulsation modeled? If so then having turbo at 100 will damage it. Having the throttle behind the turbo is a big no no.

Edited by Legioneod

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The AI P-47 dives and zooms nicely for about 30 - 60 seconds (QMB, Vet / Ace) but then seems to scrub its speed and end up below you (not tried this yet at very high altitude).

 

But initially it did just what I hoped.

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12 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Is turbo damming/pulsation modeled? If so then having turbo at 100 will damage it. Having the throttle behind the turbo is a big no no.

no problem 100% turbo, and trottle below 100% played few 40+min sorties and no problems, the way its now i just get that to 100% and dont worry about it.

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I'm not Jug expert by any means, but i don't have problems to catch AI ace 109 G6 and shot them down.

 

It feels heavy but manouverable, it's quite fast even low down and dives like brick. Pretty much exactly like i excepted based on what i have read about it.

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Just now, DB605 said:

It feels heavy but manouverable.

One thing is for sure, the higher it gets the more nimble it feels. Above 20-25k ft it feels light as a feather and is very maneuverable, even better than the K4 in some regards.

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

I also thought (just to be clear, i am not sure about this anymore) it's a better turner then the 109-G (at any speed). I read quite a lot about this bird, and i might confuse something here, but i always had the impression that a turnfight against a 109 should be succesful in a Cobra. Correct me if i am wrong.

 

Ideally - patrol at around 4000m, meet the target and dive dragging him to 2500-3000m then WEP and initiate hard horizontal turn riding just on edge of blackout. You should get the angle for possible gun solution; perhaps not best one but it will be you firing.

 

The trick will work lower but at the 3km the throttling loses wane as it's close to the critical altitude of the P-39 engine. (that is especially useful against 190s)

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3 minutes ago, nop51flyboydee said:

i know that the p47 is no dog fighter but the devs had visualy created stunningly buetiful aircraft to look at.

 

It's a stunning piece of work. An absolutely gorgeous model of a butt fugly airplane 😜

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6 hours ago, Diggun said:

While I thoroughly enjoyed my (limited) time last night trying out all my new toys, one thing i noticed with the '47 was that the nose likes to wander around the place. Has anyone else found this? Is this the famed lateral instability coming into play?

 

I noticed that too. What is the story around that famed lateral instability? Was the jug notorious for that in RL?

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Dogfighting AI K4's in the P47 at 25,000ft. My target rolled over and dived for the deck (never seen AI do this before), so I followed. I thought for sure that I'd easily catch him in the dive, or at least get an easy kill with my better high-speed control on the pull-out. But no, the K4 (1.8 ata) actually seemed to pull away from me in a dive and then pulled out of it much faster than I was able to at 10,000ft, my controls being pretty much frozen. I didn't even come close to blacking out and even though the 109 was going as fast or faster than me, he pulled out of the dive easily while I was struggling to level out. Wasn't lack of high speed control supposed to me an issue with the 109? 

Edited by Bloodsplatter

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5 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Is turbo damming/pulsation modeled?

 

No

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Jug scripted campaign test - Elwood Flight inbound to lay on some hurt on Gerry in the Hurtgen ...(Stalingrad map standing in for the moment)

Going to be fun.

2018_11_20__1_29_42.jpg

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3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

Dogfighting AI K4's in the P47 at 25,000ft. My target rolled over and dived for the deck (never seen AI do this before), so I followed. I thought for sure that I'd easily catch him in the dive, or at least get an easy kill with my better high-speed control on the pull-out. But no, the K4 (1.8 ata) actually seemed to pull away from me in a dive and then pulled out of it much faster than I was able to at 10,000ft, my controls being pretty much frozen. I didn't even come close to blacking out and even though the 109 was going as fast or faster than me, he pulled out of the dive easily while I was struggling to level out. Wasn't lack of high speed control supposed to me an issue with the 109? 

 

Odd isn't it, something is off with the K4 dive model imo and the P-47 structural stability.

The K4 can withstand higher speed dives before breaking up and the P-47 loses ailerons where it didnt irl.

 

Not to mention that the P-47 losses wings to machine gun fire, which is very odd to me.

 

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

No

That's disappointing.

Edited by Legioneod

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I like how nimble the P-47 is at high speed. I think the P-47 will bring a new high altidude layer to the game with P-47s trying to get on top of 109s stalking their prey at 4k+.

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16 minutes ago, Grim said:

I like how nimble the P-47 is at high speed. I think the P-47 will bring a new high altidude layer to the game with P-47s trying to get on top of 109s stalking their prey at 4k+.

Its definitely nimble at speed and even more so at high altitude. It can nearly outmaneuver the K4 at high altitude and can certainly fly better higher up imo, it's very light on the controls when up high.

 

K4 feels sluggish in comparison.

Edited by Legioneod

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I`m pleasantly susprised then. The P47 being a dog actually means that the P51 is going to be realistic.

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19 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

It's definitely not a dog. I was tearing 109s apart on Berloga & KOTA last night: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oHVD-yHDMotKDEhW_lQfXkryN2e755W1/view?usp=drivesdk

 

The Jug weight works in two ways - both acceleration and deceleration are diminished. As long harder turns are avoided it's not too difficult to keep the momentum. Thus zooming is great and the 2600hp engine loaded by big propeller handles the heavy frame surprisingly well.

It's kind of unexpected but with 60% fuel and no mods I could exceeded 3500ft/m initial climb rate starting from the deck on the Kuban autumn map. If only the water injection could be used uninterrupted for the whole supply of 15m...

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2 hours ago, ChiefWH said:

 

That's a shame, whilst there was nothing to suggest the constant turn was addressed, I had a tiny hope that maybe something would have inadvertently improved it.

 

it's so frustrating because the visuals and flight is so darn good in this game.

 

Thanks for the feedback, it saves me wasting my time.

I really whish I was wrong, but after a few missions, it teaches me the opposite. Yes, it is disappointing and frustating that the Ai improvement take so long, but I´m confident these Dev. Team will find a way till BoBP gets released. Otherwise this IL-2 Series will end up in a desaster if not...^^

 

On the positive side, it seems like the ground attack logic is improved. I did a couple of flights in a P-40 career, and the AI behaves really nice this time. They split of in pairs and attack from different directions. I was in the 2nd pair and stick to my wingmen all the time. It was really a surprising Experience.  😉

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2 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

I`m pleasantly susprised then. The P47 being a dog actually means that the P51 is going to be realistic.

It most certainly isnt, it's extremely nimble up high and can outmaneuver (mostly) the K4 from the test I've done.

2 hours ago, Talon_ said:

It's definitely not a dog. I was tearing 109s apart on Berloga & KOTA last night: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oHVD-yHDMotKDEhW_lQfXkryN2e755W1/view?usp=drivesdk

Was in Berloga and saw the most beautiful sight. A 109 thought he was slick and tried to zoom climb to safety, well there was a P-47 on his tail and it beat the 109 in the zoom and shot him down lol.

Best thing I've ever seen in multiplayer.

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On 11/21/2018 at 3:52 PM, Bies said:

 

In more realistic servers like TAW, Finnish, Coconut etc. lot of people fly high.

I remember last map in TAW when nearly all fly above 7km - Spitfires V and Bf109s. And that was eastern front, without any specialised high altitude planes. I can imagine with Spitfires HF IX, Thunderbolts and Lightings with turbochargers, Mustangs, Bf109K there will be even bigger emphasis on high alt fights.

 

It was natural and pragmatic decision - nobody wanted to be at disadvantage, when we fly Spits V we knew we gonna meet germans at about 7-8km and if we go lower we will be just cannon fodder. They thought the same. Simple.

 

If somebody fly on less realistic/more casual servers  -  yes, people will take off and turn right over the trees and most of Bodenplatte airplanes will not be better than old planes we have now in the game in this situation, Thunderbolt especially.

This, if you fly high then the enemy must fly high too. Now that planes like the P47 and the future Mustang will benefit from high altitude, I think the scene of lonely german figthers will change. As you said, in the last TAW we saw plenty of high altitude combat, now it will be easier and more common.

 

So far loving the Jug. It's a quantum leap over the P-40 and in high altutude one of the top performers plus it's a great attacker. Don't know what people want

Edited by LF_Gallahad
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30 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

 

 

So far loving the Jug. It's a quantum leap over the P-40 and in high altutude one of the top performers plus it's a great attacker. Don't know what people want

The highest power  that was historically available to the aircraft, since the 109K definitely got that. But since I’m 100% confident we will get that eventually  I decline to join the pitchfork and torch mob.

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4 hours ago, Legioneod said:

It most certainly isnt, it's extremely nimble up high and can outmaneuver (mostly) the K4 from the test I've done.

Was in Berloga and saw the most beautiful sight. A 109 thought he was slick and tried to zoom climb to safety, well there was a P-47 on his tail and it beat the 109 in the zoom and shot him down lol.

Best thing I've ever seen in multiplayer.

 

:good:

 

That certainly would be a good sight!! 

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Yeah, prop effiency being what it is the higher the initial speed when enter the zoom the less the engine matters and more the ballistic qualities (low drag in relation to weight) of the plane matter. Robert S. Johnson even claims he got a a Spit he was sparring with to follow him in a bit of a dive  and then out-zoomed it well enough rope-a-dope it, then to hammer over and point his guns at the cockpit.

The P38 will be super monstrous in high speed zoom with it’s no net torque allowing the nose to be held up at full power longer than with any single-engine prop fighter.

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