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JaRa

The meaning of this game

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I originally posted this in the 1C IL2:COD forum but apparently this forum would be the right place:

 

Hey guys

after a longer break from flying sims I thought I'd give it a try again. Let me nail it down:
 

My kudos to the development team!


I already loved the original IL2, but I was pleasantly surprised to see how the game has progressed. Now this is not just another fanboy post between complaints and bug reports. I want to emphasize your valuable conrtibution to keep the idea of realistic simulations alive. Putting so much work into a product for such a small community requires a lot of enthusiasm and attention to detail.

The flight model feels spot on. All complainers and wannabe-experts should take their time to swallow that.
Now I've never flown a WW2 warbird yet, so strictly I cannot judge if certain performance figures are modeled correctly, but I've flown shitloads of GA aircraft, aerobatics planes and some post-war trainers with a clear focus on aerobatics and as a physicist I looked deeply into the physics of flight and tried to nail down every small detail that makes an airplane behave as it does. So yes, I think I can say if a flight model feels right even though I haven't flown that particular aircraft in reality yet. And I'm talking about what "flight model" really means. I couldn't care less about the parameters that make plane A turn tighter than B, climb better or fly faster. Ask enough veterans and you'll always find someone who confirms your wet dreams about your favourite plane. And then, without being respectless, ask yourself how many details a WW2 veteran with the relatively low combat times possible in WW2 could possibly remember more than 70 years later.
I'm so tired of people blaming the flight model for being shot down and bother the developers to turn their pet plane into a hollywood movie UFO. This constant bitching about making every plane perform better and better ruined IL2 for me back then. Guys, there are enough pointless arcade shooters out there, so let the team focus on the important things!

Sure, some relative performance parameters may still be more or less off, but honestly, who can really judge that? There simply was no systematic flight evaluation for WW2 aircraft, period. So you think that turn rate diagram "109 vs Spit" you just dug out says much? Forget it, it doesn't even describe 1% of the information needed to actually describe the overall aircraft performance. Same with those few climb rate or "climb in a combat turn" figures. Mushy stuff for a very vague comparison. I am involved in real airplane performance analysis and even when it comes to just some simple maneuvers, you need much more information than most people here could possibly imagine.
I'm not saying the developers should not try to improve it any further, I'm just saying it is not as simple as some may think.

The important thing is that the actual flight dynamics are modeled such that airplanes feel right. Look at the diversity of the stall and spin characteristics in this game, analyse some aerobatics maneuvers you know from real planes and compare them to the game - convincing! See how a side slip works, let the plane dance around and notice all the small effects that also happen in reality. These things will reveal whether or not the developers really know what they're talking about.

And another big thanks for supporting VR. This makes it so much more immersive. It is a shame that VR generally progresses so slowly. Of course there are reasons for that. But a sim even on the biggest monitor does not even come close to the feeling of VR. 3D vision, nautural head rotation for tracking targets, parallax view to "un-block" the cockpit framing, head movement to peek around whatever blocks your sight and finally, only in VR you can really appreciate the fantastic artwork of the cockpits.

Keep up the good work!

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:good:

 

Welcome to the sim and the forums! Great community here, and a fantastic sim.

Full agree on the VR, I have been flying this sim in VR since the first day they supported it officially, and still can not get enough it seems.

And I am talking on practically a daily basis.

 

Welcome Aboard!

Edited by dburne

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At last! Another sensible fellow who brings it strait to the point. Thank you and welcome back.

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Good first post and couldnt agree more, also real pilot here and fly a post WWII military trainer (russian instruments and air systems just like the ones in IL2).

IL 2 Feel of flight is pretty good, the best of any sim in my opinion (have a few CLOD, DCS, XPlane 11, Prepar 3D, Aerof;y 2).

 

For example CLOD, feeling of flight was not there for me, it never convinced me, no floating feeling and always on rails kind of feel.

Best part is Il2 keeps getting better

 

VR its just amazing, we also have great josyticks and rudder pedals now too, wish we could add force feedback to the joystick (I know a swiss company makes it but $1,000 is too much).

 

As soon as the P 51 is released I will have my friend who owned one for many years and have thousands of hrs in them  give it a try in IL2. (I bet he will be hooked).

 

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47 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

As soon as the P 51 is released I will have my friend who owned one for many years and have thousands of hrs in them  give it a try in IL2. (I bet he will be hooked).

 

That would be awesome to hear his feedback.

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no VR no buy..

 

the usual sentiment from the VR junkies.😊

 

but, seriously, I bought the other simulator first because it had VR support. But i didn't get vested in it because there was nothing to do and as realistic it was/is the 'game' aspect of it wasn't there. Pure simulators are boring. There must be a story, a goal, an emotional attachment that ignites the imagination and swallows your whole.

 

Il-2 introduced the VR support and there was no going back. So many hours spent, so much money put in just to keep on flying and living the dream of flight!

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Good to hear I'm no the only VR addict. I never understood what "VR sickness" means. The other day I tried to play over a monitor again. Had to throw up all over the place... man did that feel crappy 😁

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JaRa, did you uses to be be part of a JG5 group? Think I ran into you and your guys a few times.

 

S! and from my far more limited hours in GA I totally agree with you. I am loving the A-5 at the moment and in VR....wow!

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Yes, I joined JG5 originally in EAW and then we moved to IL2 when it came out. Salute to you gentlemen from good ol' EAF, we enjoyed a lot of fantastic online missions with you!

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1 hour ago, JaRa said:

Good to hear I'm no the only VR addict. I never understood what "VR sickness" means. The other day I tried to play over a monitor again. Had to throw up all over the place... man did that feel crappy 😁

 

Being a real pilot you might not feel the effects.  When I went to VR it was definitely there.  These days I don't feel it at all.  Oddly enough it was Skyrim VR that made me want to to toss my cookies.  Somehow rolls and loops were fine but walking on the ground ... 😬

 

I know you were joking but there are actually good reasons to use a monitor - or so I have heard.  On full real the resolution is going to be much better so spotting is probably better.  Not an issue here since I play single player but if you are online being able to see a plane against the ground might be important.

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VR SA is not that great for MP (or that’s my excuse), I get a definite ‘where did he go?’ disappearence issue at around 1km that people I am flying against on TrackIR do not have in a 1vs1 fight.

 

But for general flying it is fantastic.

 

JaRa, hope to see you in the skies (preferably in front of me). 

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I agree, VR works but there are still issues. With today's consumer VR you may be at a disadvantage when it comes to spotting but I'm in for the immersion, not for score boards. Besides, in real life it can be very difficult to spot even nearby planes and they're not even camouflaged.

 

Marsh, if you have me in front of you within firing range, you definitely entered my aerobatics box without permission. Beer's on you then.

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2 hours ago, JaRa said:

Good to hear I'm no the only VR addict. I never understood what "VR sickness" means. The other day I tried to play over a monitor again. Had to throw up all over the place... man did that feel crappy 😁

 

Lol I get ya.

 

Last timed I gamed on my monitor was Jan 15 2017.

Been using the Rift ever since, practically daily. Many hours a week spent with it, mostly in IL-2.

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Welcome to the forum Ja Ra and a good post as well. I've been away for a while myself. Life happens.

 

I've always used Trackir, never tried VR although I think that I would like to try it..........I know nothing about VR and I didn't even know that you don't use a monitor when flying VR. Maybe some pilots explain how it works.....sounds interesting.

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11 hours ago, reddog=11blueleader* said:

Welcome to the forum Ja Ra and a good post as well. I've been away for a while myself. Life happens.

 

I've always used Trackir, never tried VR although I think that I would like to try it..........I know nothing about VR and I didn't even know that you don't use a monitor when flying VR. Maybe some pilots explain how it works.....sounds interesting.

 

You stick a head mounted display on your head, and you have a separate image for each eye. This allows for the same kind of depth perception you get in the real world. Now combine that with accurate 1:1 head tracking, and you find you are sitting inside a virtual cockpit, and fear for your virtual life in a way that you have to experience to fully understand.

Edited by =FEW=Herne
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11 hours ago, reddog=11blueleader* said:

Welcome to the forum Ja Ra and a good post as well. I've been away for a while myself. Life happens.

 

I've always used Trackir, never tried VR although I think that I would like to try it..........I know nothing about VR and I didn't even know that you don't use a monitor when flying VR. Maybe some pilots explain how it works.....sounds interesting.

 

Odyssey Plus is reported to be on sale beginning Nov 18th for $299 complete system. Very high resolution and wide field of vision.

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/hmd/windows-mixed-reality/hmd-odyssey-windows-mixed-reality-headset-xe800zba-hc1us/

 

 

 

Edited by Gordon200
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On 11/13/2018 at 4:35 PM, JaRa said:

I originally posted this in the 1C IL2:COD forum but apparently this forum would be the right place:

 

Hey guys

after a longer break from flying sims I thought I'd give it a try again. Let me nail it down:
 

My kudos to the development team!


I already loved the original IL2, but I was pleasantly surprised to see how the game has progressed. Now this is not just another fanboy post between complaints and bug reports. I want to emphasize your valuable conrtibution to keep the idea of realistic simulations alive. Putting so much work into a product for such a small community requires a lot of enthusiasm and attention to detail.

The flight model feels spot on. All complainers and wannabe-experts should take their time to swallow that.
Now I've never flown a WW2 warbird yet, so strictly I cannot judge if certain performance figures are modeled correctly, but I've flown shitloads of GA aircraft, aerobatics planes and some post-war trainers with a clear focus on aerobatics and as a physicist I looked deeply into the physics of flight and tried to nail down every small detail that makes an airplane behave as it does. So yes, I think I can say if a flight model feels right even though I haven't flown that particular aircraft in reality yet. And I'm talking about what "flight model" really means. I couldn't care less about the parameters that make plane A turn tighter than B, climb better or fly faster. Ask enough veterans and you'll always find someone who confirms your wet dreams about your favourite plane. And then, without being respectless, ask yourself how many details a WW2 veteran with the relatively low combat times possible in WW2 could possibly remember more than 70 years later.
I'm so tired of people blaming the flight model for being shot down and bother the developers to turn their pet plane into a hollywood movie UFO. This constant bitching about making every plane perform better and better ruined IL2 for me back then. Guys, there are enough pointless arcade shooters out there, so let the team focus on the important things!

Sure, some relative performance parameters may still be more or less off, but honestly, who can really judge that? There simply was no systematic flight evaluation for WW2 aircraft, period. So you think that turn rate diagram "109 vs Spit" you just dug out says much? Forget it, it doesn't even describe 1% of the information needed to actually describe the overall aircraft performance. Same with those few climb rate or "climb in a combat turn" figures. Mushy stuff for a very vague comparison. I am involved in real airplane performance analysis and even when it comes to just some simple maneuvers, you need much more information than most people here could possibly imagine.
I'm not saying the developers should not try to improve it any further, I'm just saying it is not as simple as some may think.

The important thing is that the actual flight dynamics are modeled such that airplanes feel right. Look at the diversity of the stall and spin characteristics in this game, analyse some aerobatics maneuvers you know from real planes and compare them to the game - convincing! See how a side slip works, let the plane dance around and notice all the small effects that also happen in reality. These things will reveal whether or not the developers really know what they're talking about.

And another big thanks for supporting VR. This makes it so much more immersive. It is a shame that VR generally progresses so slowly. Of course there are reasons for that. But a sim even on the biggest monitor does not even come close to the feeling of VR. 3D vision, nautural head rotation for tracking targets, parallax view to "un-block" the cockpit framing, head movement to peek around whatever blocks your sight and finally, only in VR you can really appreciate the fantastic artwork of the cockpits.

Keep up the good work!

 

Welcome back, and congrats on your renewed interest in the IL2 series. With that said, your blanket statements of people “complaining” (from “wannabe experts”) is unwarranted. I’d agree that there’s a great deal of complaining that can be boiled down to “this aircraft isn’t meeting my expectations,” but that isn’t always the case. 

 

The real problem with your statement that everything is accurate is many will now say “well, this real life pilot says it’s good, so you’re wrong” whenever a concern is raised. Example: lateral and longitudinal instability was horrific a few years ago, primarily in the 109. The root cause was a rudder that was far too effective (among other contributing factors). This is the “wobble” that was often brought up. Folks said time and time again that nothing was wrong, including one self-proclaimed expert named Quax. So what happened? About 6 months later, the devs quietly mentioned in patch notes that it was a significant shortcoming in their modeling and would soon be addressed. 

 

Your perspective based on experience is appreciated, but before you claim to be the final authority, realize that the experience of some on these forums would humble even you. 

 

 

Edited by Go_Pre
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I don’t have the necessary vast knowledge of aerodynamics+actual stick time in all the modeled WWII fighters to say whether or not every FM in the game is right. What I do know is that you can take “Fighter Combat” by Shaw and apply it chapter and verse without extensive modification. Not all titles in this genre can say that, believe it or not. To me that strongly implies that flight itself is being simulated reasonably accurately. Effective guns range also seems right in the ballpark for WWII, which keeps the tactics reasonably similar. If fighters of this era are combined with gunnery modeling which allows effective hitting at a thousand yards on a regular basis, as some games do, then it totally changes the game in negative ways from the standpoint of replicating what we read about. That’s two MAJOR things to get right which seem spot-on in Il2

Edited by CMBailey

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12 hours ago, Go_Pre said:

Your perspective based on experience is appreciated, but before you claim to be the final authority, realize that the experience of some on these forums would humble even you. 

 

I didn't say I'm the final authority and I don't generally question the knowledge and experience of other users. I raised my concerns because I witnessed how simulations got crippled because people insisted on changing them in a way they thought was right without actually understanding the complexity of the system. It would be sad if this series suffered the same fate because some people simply don't get it.
I hope this has changed in the meantime but for some people, maybe few but seemingly the loudest, "flight model" was only about top speed, turn rate, climb rate and what they considered to be a too aggressive stall in their favourite plane. However solving problems with characteristics not mentioned in the specs papers like longitudinal stability, as you mentioned, are what I find much more important because it makes the difference between a toy and a plane.
Bottom line is this sim has developed to a very promising point and the devs should focus on such things to improve it even further instead of wasting time tweaking the model trying to fit anecdotal reports.

 

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On 11/14/2018 at 8:08 PM, JaRa said:

Good to hear I'm no the only VR addict. I never understood what "VR sickness" means.

It means that not everyone is the same and not everyone is 20 and superhealthy. I never experienced that (simming from 90s) but lately as Im older now and 2 yrs ago got struck with Vestibular neuritis I can feel sometimes I can experience motion sickness If Im on a kids carousel (with my younger one) or even when using VR for longer time. With TiR its much better but depends on the day. But then again I have an eyesight of a superman unlike most ppl. Thats how it is. We are all different.

Edited by blackram

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The only motion issue I get from VR is when applying the brakes after landing. Then my brain helpfully 'provides' for me the sensation of being on a train coming to a stop in a station. The first time, I moved my head and upper body to compensate. Now I simply find it amusing.

 

We are, at base, evolved monkeys 😄

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blackram, my comment about VR motion sickness was a joke. Of course we all experience this differently and improvements in VR quality will hopefully make this better.

Many people get sick when maneuvering in real planes, even more so when they're not controlling the plane themselves. It's similar to seasickness; some have it, others not. Luckily in many cases it gets better once the body gets used to it. Can take quite a while though. I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to VR sickness too. After all the reasons are similar.

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On 11/15/2018 at 7:59 AM, =FEW=Herne said:

 

You stick a head mounted display on your head, and you have a separate image for each eye. This allows for the same kind of depth perception you get in the real world. Now combine that with accurate 1:1 head tracking, and you find you are sitting inside a virtual cockpit, and fear for your virtual life in a way that you have to experience to fully understand.

Now you really got my interest in VR.......thanks  😃

On 11/15/2018 at 8:12 AM, Gordon200 said:

 

Odyssey Plus is reported to be on sale beginning Nov 18th for $299 complete system. Very high resolution and wide field of vision.

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/hmd/windows-mixed-reality/hmd-odyssey-windows-mixed-reality-headset-xe800zba-hc1us/

 

 

 

Thanks so much Gordon and really liked the video. I soon may become a VR pilot.😃

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49 minutes ago, reddog=11blueleader* said:

Now you really got my interest in VR.......thanks  😃

Thanks so much Gordon and really liked the video. I soon may become a VR pilot.😃

Check to see if your computer meets the requirements for VR - https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00078173/

If you are an old fart like me and need glasses they can be made to fit in the headset (Head Mounted Display). I bought lenses for my Oculus Rift from this company in Poland that are a big help for me - https://widmovr.com/product/odyssey-prescription-lens-adapters/

If you live near a Microsoft store you can check out the Samsung Odyssey Plus before you make the decision. hint -you'll be hooked and never go back to flat screen flying.

 

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Thank you for your OP! Absolutely true words! This is why I fly COOP only with my friends, there is no need or trigger for any kinda fm discussion, its just about the immersion of flyin a warbird in ww2.

 

Thank you!

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Other than a physicists ( I hope not Sheldon) do we have any real life test pilots that play this game or even any highly qualified aerodynamists that can discuss what they think about the various FMs? I would be interested to hear from some real military test pilots as I agree with the OP comments, however calculations on paper might not always reflect reality. 

I was recently watching a few youtube interviews with Eric Brown and his description of a few aircraft that he flew. However, I will probably no longer bother as I believe that he had very limited real combat experience and it was over 70yrs ago, so he probably got his facts wrong although what a nice man he was, even though he was RN.

 

Regards

Edited by Haza

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2 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

This is only for US customers I think :(

 

Even if you added shipping & tax for international delivery, the Odyssey+ is probably still the best bang-for-the-buck headset out there at this time.

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On 11/13/2018 at 3:35 PM, JaRa said:

Ask enough veterans and you'll always find someone who confirms your wet dreams about your favourite plane.

 

 

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On 11/18/2018 at 5:03 AM, Haza said:

Other than a physicists ( I hope not Sheldon) do we have any real life test pilots that play this game or even any highly qualified aerodynamists that can discuss what they think about the various FMs? I would be interested to hear from some real military test pilots as I agree with the OP comments, however calculations on paper might not always reflect reality. 

I was recently watching a few youtube interviews with Eric Brown and his description of a few aircraft that he flew. However, I will probably no longer bother as I believe that he had very limited real combat experience and it was over 70yrs ago, so he probably got his facts wrong although what a nice man he was, even though he was RN.

 

Regards

Gamers know more than real pilots, didnt you know that? :)

Even if Hartman was alive , they will tell him he is wrong.

 

On the other hand some guys here know a lot of real world data, and history about this airplanes, a combination of both is the best for IL2.

 

I have the perfect guy, my friend knows all the data specs and history of the P 51, I will have him give IL2 a try as soon as the P 51 is released, I will video his opinions and post them here, he has 2,000hrs in real P51s, owned 4 of them, is an history buff, he even met Adolf Galland and Hartman in person some years ago, but he still remembers what they talked about.

He is current  in the P51(hope this counts as experienced?).

No he was not in WWII but in Vietnam and shot at and  had some exciting missions coming back with the plane full of holes.

 

To me Il2 is pretty good, havent flown this specific warbirds myself, but I own one post WWII, and when I fly it feels like a Yak fighter.

It is possible the developers dont get them perfect the first time, but they always keep working on them and improving them, which is what counts.

Edited by II./JG77_motoadve
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This game in VR is as good as a sex.

 

And in the same way, when you make a few days break, it tastes much better then.

I had a break almost a week and yesterday flew again. First 1/2 hour I was just enjoying the plane, the instruments and the lightning inside. The beauty of the cockpit in VR and how awesome is just to take off and make first turn.

 

The developers made a briliant product with never ending passionate.

Thank you very much.

 

 

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I can only fly in VR since the first experience. No desire to ever do it on a flat panel again.

You are right about the colors and lighting in VR, Vasilij. I nearly crashed the Bf110G2 when I turned on the instrument lights and was surrounded in a blue and yellow glow. Absolutely beautiful!

 

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On 11/18/2018 at 8:03 AM, Haza said:

Other than a physicists ( I hope not Sheldon) do we have any real life test pilots that play this game or even any highly qualified aerodynamists that can discuss what they think about the various FMs? I would be interested to hear from some real military test pilots as I agree with the OP comments, however calculations on paper might not always reflect reality. 

I was recently watching a few youtube interviews with Eric Brown and his description of a few aircraft that he flew. However, I will probably no longer bother as I believe that he had very limited real combat experience and it was over 70yrs ago, so he probably got his facts wrong although what a nice man he was, even though he was RN.

 

Regards

 

4 former squadron mates have attended USAF test pilot school and are currently involved in fighter aircraft testing. If they make it back to Virginia any time soon, I’ll ask them to fly it a bit. 

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JaRa.....

Nice speech mate (where's you Tag? Lol)

I'm pretty sure all us old school Il2  simmers feel exactly the same as you,

unfortunately trying to impart our wisdom on the younger generation of gamers, is like trying to herd cats.

But good luck with that.

Ive always viewed BoS as more of a flight sim with shooting, flight characteristics etc are beautifully modeled,

but at times i feel are wasted on some individuals who don't seem to appropriate the work that must go into producing such a sim.

 

So to the dev team, i say, keep up the good work

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On 11/23/2018 at 9:34 PM, JG5_Schuck said:

JaRa.....

Nice speech mate (where's you Tag? Lol)

 

Hey Schuck! In the meantime there were so many JG5s and XYZ/JG5s that I didn't remember which one had low enough standards for me to join. Also I have become some sort of cosmopolitan in so far as I think I shouldn't just shoot at allied forces but rather at everyone. But yes, I still use my "JG5" coffee cup at work!

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