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4 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Why, I'm sure it's only a few more posts till you realise you're the one confused here, why stop now?

 

The lagg has 150km/h of margin ingame vs manual compared to all other planes that have 100.

 

The 50 is in reference to the bonus it gets over every other plane due to pilot anecdotes.

 

 

And here we will enter the woods of "USSR war time factory inconsistencies". 

3 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

I was already becoming afraid you weren’t!

 

I can elaborate my position, but lets do it in some other thread. I will gladly elaborate my position in way that  will leave you less confused. 

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7 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Why, I'm sure it's only a few more posts till you realise you're the one confused here, why stop now?

 

Yeah, looks like he is goingthe full distance

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

I will gladly elaborate my position in way that  will leave you less confused. 

 

Pretty sure that’s not going to happen... 😄

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5 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Yeah, looks like he is goingthe full distance

 

Not sure that’s going to happen...

 

Well, if no matter what i say will change your mind, we can just stop here. 

 

I have this feeling i touched you in your "no no spot", when i suggested... nay, merely hinted that Russian planes *gasp* actually might preform closer to real than other planes in this game.

 

This is why you will need feminism. 

#Me26too

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38 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

You are thinking of the economy cruise ratings for max range. 

Yes because these are the ratings relevant for what is called cruise. And that is not max speed just before you engine blows up.

 

The Tempest on the other hand goes almost 400 mph at most economical cruise setting. That is THE big difference.

 

The Germans on the other hand were just lucky that by 1945 they didn‘t have to go anywhere anymore. Going at full bore is a smart move then as it increases suvivability for the short time they were airborne.

 

Going full bore  cruise speed

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5 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

And the tempest is faster than this thing? 

 nope

 

in game specks for K4 1.98 say on deck it can go 614kmh, and if tempest v dont get 13 lbs it aint gona be faster at any alt, only good for tempest is low and mid and this k4 in game is as fast as 11lbs low and faster on higher. And who knows maybe we get 9lbs tempest how things go for allied airplanes in bobp 😄

but thouse 4xhispanos should make things magicly disapere infront of tempests :)

 

kota runs all mods all time unlock, its one of things that distingwishes it from others, so dont expect to see ppl fly k4 without 1.98 mod there, why would anyone not use it when its in game and on server.

 

in game dive spedd spec for 47 say 805kmh for 109k4 850kmh, and i see in dives i start lose aleron parts on 47 at ~900kmh, and on k4 at ~935kmh

 

 

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1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

Yes because these are the ratings relevant for what is called cruise. And that is not max speed just before you engine blows up.

 

The Tempest on the other hand goes almost 400 mph at most economical cruise setting. That is THE big difference.

 

The Germans on the other hand were just lucky that by 1945 they didn‘t have to go anywhere anymore. Going at full bore is a smart move then as it increases suvivability for the short time they were airborne.

 

Going full bore  cruise speed

 

Regretfully you did not get any of what was said. Lets get the facts straight.

 

Maximum continuous cruise of the 109K-4 is 645 kmh at , or about 400 mph. 

Maximum continuous cruise of the Tempest 390 mph, or about 628 kph. That's pretty fast.

 

Maximum continuous ratings does not blow the engine, it is far from going 'full bore'. It is called for continuous for a reason. 

For some odd reason, you seem to think max. continuous cruise settings are different for the two. They are not. In both cases it means the maximum speed the aircraft can maintain indefinitely. That is the very definition. 

 

Now the Tempest economical cruise is much slower than that, 285 mph or about 460 kph. It could never go 'near 400' for economic, i.e. max range setting.

BTW that of the 109s economical cruise is similar, 480-500 kph IIRC. Both at about 6000-6500m.  In short, the 109 and Tempest have pretty impressive, but similar cruise speeds, both for economic / maximum cruise. 

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good thing they made 47 before 51, if it was oposite, no one expect few fans would play with 47 online more then a day, now its still better then la5fn or spit9 so atleast 109s will be able to get fix on shooting 47s before 51 comes to get shoot down 😄

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1 hour ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

If P-51D will be limited to 67" MAP only

 

If this happens I will be genuinely surprised and disappointed, considering the wealth of evidence that Mustangs ran on higher settings in both the western air forces

 

I'm assuming based on Jason's comment that the lack of multiple engine settings for the allies is based on time constraints that the reason we got the (statistically utterly insignificant, historically) 1.98 setting is because the devs have a lot more experience modelling the DB engines over the years

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Not the Russian ones, they cant. Yak-1's lose ailerons the second you move them at the overspeed range. 

Manual says about 620 max for the yak 1 and here is loosing parts over 720 so... It also mentions the problems of pulling Gs over 600 below the manual limit and we have no problems on the game pulling full stick at 600 so the yak is way more overmodelled than the 109s, P47 regarding to dive behabeour. You can find as well first hand testimonies of luft pilots going faster than 900 kph on 109s and also first hand pilot mustang report that they could not follow 109s on the dives because they could reach compresibility speeds and recover them with the trimable  stabilicer while the mustang couldn t use this exploit. So...

 

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they added in technochat message that warns you that your emergancy ( max power) time is expired, i see on 109k4 after 10 min ofmax power i get that message, and i just still go full power and 2-3min after engine got damaged. Nice new add, no more looking at time :) works in 47 also, and if you go over it few min later engine goes yellow.

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4 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

they added in technochat message that warns you that your emergancy ( max power) time is expired, i see on 109k4 after 10 min ofmax power i get that message, and i just still go full power and 2-3min after engine got damaged. Nice new add, no more looking at time :) works in 47 also, and if you go over it few min later engine goes yellow.

Time limits are not exact. On G14 i got my engine blowed just after pasing the 10 mins. The 1.42 ata limitit of 1 min you can have sometimes 1:30min. Spit limit of 5 min you can have 7:30 min with no problem, Same with 190, E7s limit times. 

Most of the time margins are arround 50 % more that the limit is indicating while with the Mw50 is about 10-20% 

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19 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

they added in technochat message that warns you that your emergancy ( max power) time is expired, i see on 109k4 after 10 min ofmax power i get that message, and i just still go full power and 2-3min after engine got damaged. Nice new add, no more looking at time :) works in 47 also, and if you go over it few min later engine goes yellow.

 

Wish that message wasn't there.

Server controlled disabling of technochat can't come sooner.

 

That message was always a thing, I think in more recent times the warning was not appearing either reliably or at all on expert settings.

 

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at geramos, yes i know la5fn says 10min but i go with no prob 18-20min befor patch didnt try after, but now you get message when your over time limit they say so you know that extra is on your risk

 

never saw that mesage before so i tought its new with update

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25 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

You can find as well first hand testimonies of luft pilots going faster than 900 kph on 109s and also first hand pilot mustang report that they could not follow 109s on the dives because they could reach compresibility speeds and recover them with the trimable  stabilicer while the mustang couldn t use this exploit. So...

 

 

 

How can a stab trimmer effect anything in Real life, when the reason for compressability causing problems is formation of shock wave from the leading edges of surfaces that disrupted the laminar flow and reduced effectiveness of control surfaces. No amount of trim/stab tab jerking will get you out if your aerodynamic surfaces are not getting sufficient airflow and the shock wave forming at the leading edge of your lift surfaces is actually causing downforce instead of generating lift. 

 

I am calling BS with side dish of never happened on this one. 

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1 minute ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

How can a stab trimmer effect anything in Real life, when the reason for compressability causing problems is formation of shock wave from the leading edges of surfaces that disrupted the laminar flow and reduced effectiveness of control surfaces. No amount of trim/stab tab jerking will get you out if your aerodynamic surfaces are not getting sufficient airflow and the shock wave forming at the leading edge of your lift surfaces is actually causing downforce instead of generating lift. 

 

I am calling BS with side dish of never happened on this one. 

 

In 109 and 190, the stabilizer is not a trim but stabilizer. The very surface, including the leading edge where the shock wave forms, moves. Pivoting point is somewhere behind the middle point. Stab has effect even when control surfaces get less airflow due to compressibility phenomena.

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53 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

You never got near a real aircraft to fly it, did you?

The closest I got to real aircraft was when I stuck my head into Spitfire Mk I during Duxford airshow, so no flying here but at this rare instance I have to agree with Kurfurst. In reality documents give you specific ratings even without that experience. In Japanese manuals I have rated power (military power in western manuals), max. continous or other times called combat cruise and then there is economy cruise. From Mustang documents I also recall having MP (61" MAP / 3000 RPM), Max continous (46" MAP / 2600 RPM) and economical cruising (30-35" MAP / 2300 - 2400 RPM). 

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7 hours ago, DSR_T-888 said:

Imagine being in plane where you can out turn, out climb and out run out any opponent.

Soooo, a La5FN? 

 

30 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

How can a stab trimmer effect anything in Real life, when the reason for compressability causing problems is formation of shock wave from the leading edges of surfaces that disrupted the laminar flow and reduced effectiveness of control surfaces. No amount of trim/stab tab jerking will get you out if your aerodynamic surfaces are not getting sufficient airflow and the shock wave forming at the leading edge of your lift surfaces is actually causing downforce instead of generating lift. 

 

I am calling BS with side dish of never happened on this one. 

 

Stab trim is the very same technology modern supersonic jets use as regular elevator. While you cannot move the stick and elevator controls, you still can use the trim to tilt whole "wing".

Edited by CSAF-D3adCZE
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32 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

 

 

Stab trim is the very same technology modern supersonic jets use as regular elevator. While you cannot move the stick and elevator controls, you still can use the trim to tilt whole "wing".

 

 

Oh, okay, that will work. 

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

they added in technochat message that warns you that your emergancy ( max power) time is expired, i see on 109k4 after 10 min ofmax power i get that message, and i just still go full power and 2-3min after engine got damaged. Nice new add, no more looking at time  works in 47 also, and if you go over it few min later engine goes yellow.

You have gauge for it in k4 cockpit

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1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

If this happens I will be genuinely surprised and disappointed, considering the wealth of evidence that Mustangs ran on higher settings in both the western air forces

 

I'm assuming based on Jason's comment that the lack of multiple engine settings for the allies is based on time constraints that the reason we got the (statistically utterly insignificant, historically) 1.98 setting is because the devs have a lot more experience modelling the DB engines over the years

Yeah, hopefully you are right and the 'Murican bricks will get their full late war power. It's not like they'd be invincible world-beaters even with it, so it just makes sense.

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7 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

Yeah, hopefully you are right and the 'Murican bricks will get their full late war power. It's not like they'd be invincible world-beaters even with it, so it just makes sense.

 

Understanding that 45 is the latest we going to get in BoX, this is quite the "now or never" situation for us to get the late European air theater equipment from allied side. 

If we wont get the best allied had at the time now, i doubt there will be any new BoX games that will bring us them later on in form of some other campaign.

 

Odds are tho, that we might get "premium collector" planes... and we will buy them like it was digital crack cocaine...

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31 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Understanding that 45 is the latest we going to get in BoX, this is quite the "now or never" situation for us to get the late European air theater equipment from allied side. 

If we wont get the best allied had at the time now, i doubt there will be any new BoX games that will bring us them later on in form of some other campaign.

 

Odds are tho, that we might get "premium collector" planes... and we will buy them like it was digital crack cocaine...

I'm optimistic. This game (which totally doesn't take balance into consideration you guys!) has ended up pretty balanced (by miracle or something I guess)in all previous incarnations, so there ya go.

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was able to get 109k4 1.98 to 621kmh on 100m alt on stalin sumer, closing manualy rads to 0% and manualy lovering rpm to around 2700, but only for 1min to stop overheat damage engine, k4 1.8 got to 602kmh same way. Fun plane to play with climbs like rocket :)

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There has been heated argumentation over the last months on whether 1.98ATA did see service and whether 150 octane did see service. And while I don't want to get that argument all over again here in this thread (1.98ATA is here and it's obviously gonna stay as it is), the fact they added the 1.98ATA for the Bf109K-4 is the single most potent argument for 150 octane for the allied birds (in forms of modifications). Advocates of 150 octane therefore should - in my eyes - be happy with the 1.98ATA mod. 

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14 minutes ago, =FSB=HandyNasty said:

There has been heated argumentation over the last months on whether 1.98ATA did see service and whether 150 octane did see service. And while I don't want to get that argument all over again here in this thread (1.98ATA is here and it's obviously gonna stay as it is), the fact they added the 1.98ATA for the Bf109K-4 is the single most potent argument for 150 octane for the allied birds (in forms of modifications). Advocates of 150 octane therefore should - in my eyes - be happy with the 1.98ATA mod. 

 

 

I will bet that we wont get 150 oct fuel for allied birds in this iteration, but will have slow trickle of collector planes that will have 150 oct. 

 

Like how we first got La-5, and then FN.

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Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

I will bet that we wont get 150 oct fuel for allied birds in this iteration, but will have slow trickle of "collector" planes with "leaked secrit" documents that will have 150 oct. 

 

Like how we first got La-5, and then FN.

I hope this is not the case, unless of course it's the P-47M, then I'll accept it😉

 

150 fuel should be added as an option for the Bodenplatte aircraft regardless of what people think, especially since it was used in much greater numbers than the K4 with 1.98 ata.

And the argument that the 9th AAF didnt use 150 fuel doesn't work imo, 8th AAF flew in the same skys as the 9th.

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6 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I hope this is not the case, unless of course it's the P-47M, then I'll accept it😉

 

150 fuel should be added as an option for the Bodenplatte aircraft regardless of what people think, especially since it was used in much greater numbers than the K4 with 1.98 ata.

And the argument that the 9th AAF didnt use 150 fuel doesn't work imo, 8th AAF flew in the same skys as the 9th.

 

Especially since the 4 Gruppen authorized to use 1.98ata weren't based on the Bodenplatte map except for a very short time.

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22 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Like how we first got La-5, and then FN.

I rather suppose it will be like we got the La-5F (early version) from the La-5 , through an engine modification. Releasing it under collector planes would be just a plain mistake in my opinion from a communication / marketing point of view.

 

That is, of course, if we ever get 150 octane modification - for which I am quite positive. Why am I positive? Well, as shown by various documents and arguments in the previous discussions, the case for 150 octane is stronger or equal than the case for 1.98ATA. We got 1.98ATA, ergo we'll get 150 octane. 

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8 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

It is not. While the „46“ mod with 1.98 ata does make it a great ride, the Mustang and especially the Tempest are faster. The Tempest is even considerably better in zoom climbs, sort of negating its spectacular climb rate.

 

Also, the wonder boost is over after a short while. If your victims have some friends around, you won‘t get home in the K4.

 

That said, I was surprised how much I liked it. Before I like the Emil becuause it flys nuce, the F maybe because it is the best plane when it came out (although I can‘t make much of it), but the rest... unless O have the Erla Haibe, I feel like a prisoner.

P-51D is certainly not faster then a 1.98 ata K-4 until 8km. Tempest is only marginally faster for a small altitude band up to 1.5km

unknown.png

 

Then you have to consider the fact that the K-4 has longer legs then any of the allied aircraft (an absurd reality). Its WEP is double that of any allied aircraft, and its combat power is twice as long as any American aircraft. Sure the Tempest can outrun the K-4 on the deck, for 5 minutes at most...

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4 minutes ago, =FSB=HandyNasty said:

I rather suppose it will be like we got  Why am I positive? Well, as shown by various documents and arguments in the previous discussions, the case for 150 octane is stronger or equal than the case for 1.98ATA. We got 1.98ATA, ergo we'll get 150 octane. 

Devus Vult!

0B2D0F32-9656-42E0-9580-2F0FCDBD80FC.jpeg

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I guess the sidenote to that graph is that DC engine setting / 1,98ata does not change things very much. It essentially gives a bit of boost to performance under 7000m, an equivalent of about 10-15 kph top speed. Perhaps the molestation is a bit more gentle with the lower DB engine setting / 1,8ata, but it is still the same story.

 

Likewise, 100 or 150 grade fuel / i.e. 67" or 72" on the Mustang or 65" or 70" on the P-47 etc. does not change very much. Its a modest power increase, but the same basic truths hold true

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3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

How can a stab trimmer effect anything in Real life, when the reason for compressability causing problems is formation of shock wave from the leading edges 1) of surfaces that disrupted the laminar flow 2) and reduced effectiveness of control surfaces. No amount of trim/stab tab jerking will get you out 3) if your aerodynamic surfaces are not getting sufficient airflow 4) and the shock wave forming at the leading edge 5) of your lift surfaces is actually causing downforce 6) instead of generating lift 7)

 

Your understanding of transonic aerodynamics is...flawed.

 

1) The first shock is created at the point where sonic velocities are reached. Most commonly somewhere around 3c/4 in today's airfoils (but those are supercritical anyway).

2) Laminar flow has nothing to do with it. In fact, turbulent boundary layers will delay shock-induced separation. Hence all the fancy VGs on many early jet transports.

3) Wrong. Check out on how stabilators work.

4) Not an airflow problem, but an aft transition of the center of pressure, which in turn messes up your torque-budget around the cop. You're just running out of pitch-authority.

5) It doesnt.

6) They aren't.

7) They still do.

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There are tons of treads talking about 1.98 ata and 150 oc grade fuel. So you can go there and read. Kurfust provided enought evidence that the 1.98 was not that rare and that was not needed too much to convert this engines to 1.98. 

150 Grade fuel is far more difficult to corroborate than the 1.98 K4s

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23 minutes ago, =FSB=HandyNasty said:

I rather suppose it will be like we got the La-5F (early version) from the La-5 , through an engine modification. Releasing it under collector planes would be just a plain mistake in my opinion from a communication / marketing point of view.

 

That is, of course, if we ever get 150 octane modification - for which I am quite positive. Why am I positive? Well, as shown by various documents and arguments in the previous discussions, the case for 150 octane is stronger or equal than the case for 1.98ATA. We got 1.98ATA, ergo we'll get 150 octane. 

 

Let's not have any of this glass half full stuff Handy...   Sheesh.

 

:drink2:

 

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5 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

 

150 Grade fuel is far more difficult to corroborate than the 1.98 K4s

we know how much 150 octane fuel was used down to the liter. 

We don't even know if 1.98 ATA k4s saw any combat.

 

Yet which one do we bloody get 🙃

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