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6./ZG26_Loke

Radars or the lack of it...

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We fly this WW2 sim as it was a WW1 sim, with no radars????
I'm honestly not sure who much radars were used on the East front by Germany and Russia, even though Russia stole the British RDF (Range and Direction Finding) system, the GL Mk II, but in the western ETO it was used from the British side from the beginning, and not much later by Germany too.
Not many years into to the war, they could tell where, how many, how high and their speed and also friends from foes.

I believe this should be implemented into the sim so we don't fly around like blind mice. Talking Multiplayer Expert mode!

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Effectively the game already has it, you just haven't learned how to use it yet.  Every one of your bases has built in radar in a 10 Km ring around it, watch your map.  Every enemy base will indicate rough percentage of enemy planes launching out of it's grid, not that hard to figure out what targets the enemy is after with that information.  Every flak gun has instant identification of friend from foe, you see flak and you know there's enemy on your side of the line, and vice versa for the other side.  Much easier than an AWACS because it's a graphical presentation, don't matter field or forest, cloud or fog of war, ain't any of that.

 

Far as anti aircraft artillery, better than any VT shell ever performed with radar directed guns.  So you already have it, learn as most have how to use it.  

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lol, sim already has gun-laying radar with instantaneous IFF.

 

10X as effective as it was IRL.

 

Might as well be attacking SAM sites in 'Nam.

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I have not yet received any calls from ground control with enemy sighted in sector XX, at altitude XX, heading XX, at speed XX, have you?

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18 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

I have not yet received any calls from ground control with enemy sighted in sector XX, at altitude XX, heading XX, at speed XX, have you?

Me either,still a bunch of props all over map while playing online.

where's the Air Marshal mode?

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While the Soviets had rudimentary radar technology at their disposal they had not deployed it in the west at the start of the war. It was all over in Siberia for testing and training. And then once things got poppin' around Moscow and Stalingrad it was too late to set it up and the situation on the ground was changing too rapidly to set it up in time for the next fight. That is why you don't see it in game, probably.

 

The Soviets did, however, have a system of radio or telephone equipped observation posts deployed around their forward positions with the express purpose of spotting enemy aircraft as they were coming in to attack this or that target so alert fighters could be dispatched to attack them. The reports would be simple enough: Outpost X sees Y number of Z aircraft heading in this direction at about this altitude.' and the guys on the other end of the line would then figure out where they might be going to. The result was similar to the British radar net just not as far seeing or fancy. There were also issues with telephone lines being cut and radios not working properly but it was better than nothing. I imagine the Axis powers had something similar set up but I haven't really ever looked into that.

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Yep...while it was in use in certain theaters/time frames, it hardly defines WWII.

 

Radar use was constant during the BobP time frame in Europe (and before) and often as not vectored flights toward "bogies" that turned out to be friendlies.

I will be simulating this in my scripted campaign. If you want realistic radar...have to take the good with the bad.

 

A radar that always vectors you toward an enemy flight is not realistic, and certainly not "WWII"

9th Air Force pilots were constantly getting headings from Sweepstakes or Marmite, then they get there and find Spits or Mustangs, etc.

 

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3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Yep...while it was in use in certain theaters/time frames, it hardly defines WWII.

 

Radar use was constant during the BobP time frame in Europe (and before) and often as not vectored flights toward "bogies" that turned out to be friendlies.

I will be simulating this in my scripted campaign. If you want realistic radar...have to take the good with the bad.

 

A radar that always vectors you toward an enemy flight is not realistic, and certainly not "WWII"

9th Air Force pilots were constantly getting headings from Sweepstakes or Marmite, then they get there and find Spits or Mustangs, etc.

 

 

Good point. Having perfectly functioning “radar” with flawlessly distinction between friend and foe is worse than having no radar at all.

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6 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

I have not yet received any calls from ground control with enemy sighted in sector XX, at altitude XX, heading XX, at speed XX, have you?

To some extent this can be done in the mission editor. I am using this in a Kuban nightfighter campaign I am working on, to simulate Würzburg and Freya radar that was based at Bagerovo airfield on the Kerch Peninsula. When altitude, speed and heading of AI bombers are scripted this can be done easily. In multiplayer only the sector information will work. What doesn't work is vector to target information.

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I had hopes, that sometimes a flightsim would go into the details of radar, because its WW2.

We have "nightfighters" in the game, but they are not "real", because the core is missing.

 

The German FuG 202 /FuG 220 Lichtenstein airborne radars for the BF 110 or the Ju 88 would be a dream

(and their allied counterparts, of course).

 

Lichtenstein2.JPG.c27a07ffc65a36f18f1b1725dbe108ae.JPG      Lichtenstein.JPG.ed2028b16c0c1ce1795b2e2531e3d9a0.JPG

 

Years ago, some enthusiasts used Il2 1946 for a try, but the project was not finishes, unfortunately. 

 

Maybe the number of interested people in this community is to small, to implement this, but it is still a very interesting aspect.

Edited by JG4_Meteor2

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It is a pity we don't have radars in game.

somebody said russians don't have radars.at least in battle of Moscow,Ussr set them up near Moscow to defend invasion.

as to germany,radars became  their weapon.refering to steinhoff's "straits of Messina",they lost technical advantage after he got transfered to Mediterranean.

 

read the reschke 's book above.it's deadly usefula

 

Why reject  radars? I don't get it.

image.jpg

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I think, it is unlikely, that we will see any kind of electronic warfare in the sim, but its a pity, very true.

- Airborne radars for night fighters

- Guiding systems for the approach to enemy formations

- Landing systems for finding runways in the dark

 

Maybe, all these are to complicated / cost intensiv to implement, but I would pay an upcharge, only to have the possibility to learn these technologies in the aircrafts.
😃

Edited by JG4_Meteor2

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RADAR implementation is not something I would expect to see soon. I would like a proper simulation of it in the vein of DCS, but it's not a priority at the moment.

 

My understanding of RADAR in WW2 is rather limited, but I would imagine if there was any place to test one's simulation, it'd either be Britain or the Pacific...

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8 minutes ago, JG4_Meteor2 said:

- Landing systems for finding runways in the dark

 

We have radio beacons in the sim, already.

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Thanks, Gambit21!

Being here after a longer period of inactivity, I am glad to hear this.

Is there a written dokumentation about this? And where?

Frequencies, usage in the instruments of the He 111 (my favorite) , and so on ...

Thanks again. 😃

 

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No problem Meteor.

Best way is do a forum search on "NDB" this is the name of the unit in the editor.

You'll get various posts talking about it. It's basically a beacon.

 

It's also a good unit to use as a "spotter" which functions like radar in the sim, vectoring you toward enemy flights in the area.

(although I think you can use any unit for this....a fellow builder correct me if I'm wrong)

 

So functionally we do have "radar" in the sim, but it's unrealistically accurate as far as knowing friend from foe.

 

Edit: Yep, you can use any unit as a spotter.

So if the mission designer uses this unit, you'll get "Fighters to the north, engage!" etc...but again too acurate.

I don't use these in my missions.

Edited by Gambit21

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I would still prefer "true" RADAR over an abstraction, but if that's all we have, maybe making it more difficult/having a longer time to ID what side a plane is would be better than an instant response.

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Well the fact that this functionality is present, tells me that it can be tweaked at some point.

Percentage radio call issued or not at all, this under the hood "dice roll" can then happen at another interval for another chance to pick up the contact.

The mission logic knows it's there, but you not getting the call 'fakes' it not being picked up.

 

Then when the call is made, it should be "Bogies Northeast" etc and leave it at that...since that's all that was really possible.

No "fighers north, engage!" which is totally gamey and a remnant of the old producer.

 

The call should be issues a certain percentage of the time for friendlies, since as I said this mistake happened constantly.

 

Really, if the controller knew your position (because you checked in over sector "X") then you'd get a call. "Newcross, bogies east heading 020" etc.

 

 

Any RADAR we ever get will always be an abstraction of sorts...with the mission logic, radio call implementation faking it for us.

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That's true, and I like the more nebulous/random nature of your suggestion.

 

Out of curiosity, how does ground/air based RADAR work in DCS? Does an AWACS or RADAR facility have a "true" RADAR system, or does it also have the "God's-eye-view" of the battlefield?

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36 minutes ago, FarflungWanderer said:

Out of curiosity, how does ground/air based RADAR work in DCS? Does an AWACS or RADAR facility have a "true" RADAR system, or does it also have the "God's-eye-view" of the battlefield?

 

DCS seems to model some consequences of the Doppler effect so one can evade radars using techniques such as the "notching" or "beaming". However, it's doubtful if it's full modelling of electromagnetic waves.

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Yes, in retrospect it would be somewhat insane to try and model EM in its entirety. Nothing short of a NASA supercomputer could ever give it justice!

 

Still, perhaps taking a page or two from their book might be a good idea in the future. A more realistic RADAR simulation will at least make multiplayer gameplay more interesting.

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4 hours ago, salimliu said:

It is a pity we don't have radars in game.

somebody said russians don't have radars.at least in battle of Moscow,Ussr set them up near Moscow to defend invasion....

 

While it is true that Moscow was a priority for defenses, of all kinds, for the Soviets they did not even start installing reliable radar equipment around the city until 1942. The battle of Moscow ended in January of '42. There just wasn't time for any useful number of stations to be set up for use in the battle. This is all the more true as the facilities that were turning out devices of a useful nature were located in and around Moscow and thus had to be set up from scratch, and that wouldn't have been attempted for so important a project if the city was still under threat of falling to the enemy. As the Axis attack swept through the western reaches of Soviet territory all the labs working on radar, mostly found in Leningrad, were evacuated to the Urals; they were among the first things to go as well speaking to the importance placed on the technology. Given these circumstances there just wasn't enough time for radar to make an impact during the battles the game is set in. I suppose an argument could be made for Soviet radar in use in Kuban, I am not so well versed on that particular battle, but during Stalingrad all the available equipment was dedicated to Moscow in the event of an Axis counter thrust back to the capitol; hence the forward observation posts at Stalingrad.

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Other means were also used to warn and report of enemy aircraft's, namely forward observers who either used radio or field-telephones to report what they have seen. 

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Coast Watchers

 

”Henderson, 30 bombers and 11 escorts headed yours.”

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:18 PM, Gambit21 said:

Untitled-1.jpg

 

 

Hello Gambit21,

where can I set the frequency of the NDB?

And in the PATIN-instrument I have to choose this number. How is this done? :scratch_one-s_head:

(I know, how it was done in CloD)

Thanks for an answer.

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In the editor?

There's a window...0 or 1 if I remember correctly.

In the aircraft? Depends on which one.

 

I've had my head buried in the editor for the better part of 2 years now, so I'm the wrong person to ask about aircraft switches.

The Jug will have me flying again.

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On 10/22/2018 at 1:30 AM, JG4_Meteor2 said:

The German FuG 202 /FuG 220 Lichtenstein airborne radars for the BF 110 or the Ju 88 would be a dream

(and their allied counterparts, of course).

 

Lichtenstein2.JPG.c27a07ffc65a36f18f1b1725dbe108ae.JPG      Lichtenstein.JPG.ed2028b16c0c1ce1795b2e2531e3d9a0.JPG

 

Years ago, some enthusiasts used Il2 1946 for a try, but the project was not finishes, unfortunately. 

 

Maybe the number of interested people in this community is to small, to implement this, but it is still a very interesting aspect.

 

I would love to see a proper, radar equipped Bf110/Ju88 for BoBP! Add Schräge Musik and it would be absolutely EPIC! The only drawback I can see (for realism's sake) would be the AI gunners in the bombers and their "superhuman sight/detection" of enemies. IRRC, most night bombers that were hit by Schräge Musik had no idea there was enemy plane even close by, and thought they were being hit by flak. If there were a way to "dumb down" the AI gunners to where, in night situations only, their detection would only work if the enemy flew within 25-50 meters, then Schräge Musik would be very believable IMHO. Who knows, maybe one day we could see this as a reality. The team tends to drop surprises now and again, and are always looking to keep things realistic and interesting for us.

 

Definitely a "+1" from me!

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