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dburne

New build upcoming - some questions

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Hey gang,

So the time has come now, my current X-79 and i7 4820k Ivy Bridge has served me quite well for almost 5 years now, but now I am ready for a complete new build from the ground up.

 

What I have so far:

Intel i9 9900k CPU on pre-order.

EVGA RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra on pre-order.

EVGA 1000w Titanium fully modular Power Supply on order.

Will be ordering the new EVGA Z390 Dark Motherboard as soon as becomes available to order.

I will likely be going with another Corsair closed loop water cooler as the one I have on this build has done great all this time.

 

Now for purposes of this post, I would like to hear thoughts on SSD's. I have been a little out of the loop for a while on SSD technology.

What I would like, is a moderately sized SSD for my OS and apps, maybe around 500 Gb.

A large SSD for all my games. Probably a 1-2 Tb.

I will then get a large platter drive for all my documents, music, videos, etc.

 

So my two SSD's. I hear about m2, and m2 Nvme. I understand with my PCIe lanes on the Z390 Dark and only running one GPU, I am ok with installing two of those.

Should I get one m2 Nvme and one regular m2? Or two of the same, whichever between the two. Or even just one m2 and one SATA?

Really interested in hearing thoughts on these SSD options.

 

Thanks for any feedback, I am sure I will also be asking more questions as I get closer.

 

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I had to do some brief reading as I have not purchased any M2/NVME gear yet even though my mobo supports it. M2 is just the form factor but still goes through SATA which will be your bottleneck.  Your best bet is to just get 2 NVME drives to fill out your 2 slots on your Z390 Dark.  Then one spinning drive attached to SATA for your "junk".

 

https://www.velocitymicro.com/blog/nvme-vs-m-2-vs-sata-whats-the-difference/

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1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

So my two SSD's. I hear about m2, and m2 Nvme. I understand with my PCIe lanes on the Z390 Dark and only running one GPU, I am ok with installing two of those.

Should I get one m2 Nvme and one regular m2?

 

 

Nvme  is the way to go.

 

If you want to install 2xNvme drives then consult the mobo's manual about how many SATA connectors this setup will disable.  On my 370 it kills 4 Sata ports leaving only 2 available for platter/other drives.

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Or you might consider using USB docking stations with on/off switch for storage HDDs. Then you wouldn't have to worry about Sata ports on the mobo.

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I was thinking about the same things this days, with the release of 9900k. 

My 3770k is showing it's age and my Asus Sabertooth Z77 has no support for M2 SSDs. I have two SATA ssd's and two spinning drives for six or seven years and they are filling up and slowing down.

 

This is an interesting discussion for me too.

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Thanks guys.

 

I guess what I am trying to wrap my arms around, is m2 versus m2 Nvme?

What is the real world difference between those two? And would games benefit from either of those technologies?

 

Keep in mind I will have my games on a separate drive than Windows and apps.

 

 

Edited by dburne

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NVMe drives are using the PCIe interface to swap data, instead of SATA and PCIe allows for much faster transfer. I'd go that route, but have to check how many SATA connections will be disabled by the M2 drives.

 

I got this from here:   https://www.velocitymicro.com/blog/nvme-vs-m-2-vs-sata-whats-the-difference/

 

"Modern motherboards use SATA III which maxes out at a throughput of 600MB/s (or 300MB/s for SATA II, in which case, it’s time to upgrade). Via that connection, most SSDs will provide Read/Write speeds in the neighborhood of 530/500 MB/s. For comparison, a 7200 RPM SATA drive manages around 100MB/s depending on age, condition, and level of fragmentation. NVMe drives, on the other hand, provide write speeds as high as 3500MB/s. That’s 7x over SATA SSDs!

 

Some more reading here:

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2899351/storage/everything-you-need-to-know-about-nvme.html

Edited by Jaws2002

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Anyone find a difference with rapid mode enabled on the Samsung SSD`s. Just noticed it with the Magician software, but I`m waiting on a new GPU to arrive (hopefully tomorrow) to test it. I find the SSD a good help for VR and or course loading times.... and essential if playing DCS.

Edited by Wulfen

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59 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

 

 

NVMe drives are using the PCIe interface to swap data, instead of SATA and PCIe allows for much faster transfer. I'd go that route, but have to check how many SATA connections will be disabled by the M2 drives.

 

I got this from here:   https://www.velocitymicro.com/blog/nvme-vs-m-2-vs-sata-whats-the-difference/

 

"Modern motherboards use SATA III which maxes out at a throughput of 600MB/s (or 300MB/s for SATA II, in which case, it’s time to upgrade). Via that connection, most SSDs will provide Read/Write speeds in the neighborhood of 530/500 MB/s. For comparison, a 7200 RPM SATA drive manages around 100MB/s depending on age, condition, and level of fragmentation. NVMe drives, on the other hand, provide write speeds as high as 3500MB/s. That’s 7x over SATA SSDs!

 

Some more reading here:

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2899351/storage/everything-you-need-to-know-about-nvme.html

 

Thanks for the info, that helps!

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2 hours ago, dburne said:

I guess what I am trying to wrap my arms around, is m2 versus m2 Nvme?

 

Here’s a video explaining some of the technologies

 

Make sure to use NVMe for the best performance. However, the benefit of NVMe really varies between workloads; sometimes, it might not be worth the price to store terabytes of games. The best way to decide is to look at benchmarks for your particular use type.

 

The 970 PRO from Samsung is often considered the ultimate consumer SSD. However, Samsung’s own 970 EVO and many other solutions deliver similar real-world speeds for much lower prices.

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52 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

 

Here’s a video explaining some of the technologies

 

Make sure to use NVMe for the best performance. However, the benefit of NVMe really varies between workloads; sometimes, it might not be worth the price to store terabytes of games. The best way to decide is to look at benchmarks for your particular use type.

 

The 970 PRO from Samsung is often considered the ultimate consumer SSD. However, Samsung’s own 970 EVO and many other solutions deliver similar real-world speeds for much lower prices.

 

Thanks much!

 

Yes Samsung Pro is likely what I will go with, I have had two SATA Pro's in this rig and they have been fantastic.

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Ok so what I went with for my drives:

 

Samsung 970 Pro 1TB m.2 Nvme - for Windows, apps, and some games.

Samsung 860 Evo 1TB SATA - for games.

Will add a platter drive for data files, like docs, music, videos, etc.

 

Interested in any good case recommendations? Prefer full tower for the space. Will likely be running a closed loop water cooler like the Corsair for the 9900k.

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That's a great setup. Congrats.

I was window shopping this days for m2 drives and Samsung has some really good options. 

If I change my motherboard this winter, I'll go for a pair of Samsung 970s. 1TB Evos or a Pro/Evo combo like you.

 

I don't know much about Cases. I have this huge  Nzxt Phatom 820 for about eight years and It's been great. I don't see a reason to change it. Plus my upgrade can be done stealthy.  I'm already on a second upgrade in this case and wife never noticed any change.  :)

 

Edited by Jaws2002

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lmao.  Sounds exactly like me.  I've rebuilt my entire machine and as long as it's done and cleaned up before she gets home from work... We're good!

 

Now the sim hardware is tougher to explain - i just take the punishment on that stuff.

 

As far as cases go, I have a Corsair Graphite Series 730T Full-Tower Case and I love it.  Plenty of room inside to do whatever you want, and 4 USB ports on the top front, which was a requirement for me.  No glass side, as idgaf what my internals look like - also saves you about $50 in price.

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1 hour ago, Archie said:

Don are you going with 32 GB ram? 

 

Naa I stick with 16gb. Haven't found a good enough reason to splurge on 32gb yet. It's just a lot of extra money for high speed 32gb with no tangible benefit for now.

 

High speed 16gb is where it's at, imo.

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3 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

That's a great setup. Congrats.

I was window shopping this days for m2 drives and Samsung has some really good options. 

If I change my motherboard this winter, I'll go for a pair of Samsung 970s. 1TB Evos or a Pro/Evo combo like you.

 

I don't know much about Cases. I have this huge  Nzxt Phatom 820 for about eight years and It's been great. I don't see a reason to change it. Plus my upgrade can be done stealthy.  I'm already on a second upgrade in this case and wife never noticed any change.  :)

 

 

:good:

 

Lol, I am real fortunate in that department. My wife insisted we put back so much a week all year long and save for my new build that I wanted, and she is truly very excited for me - except she could care less about computers and sure does not understand my fascination with combat flight sims.

Luckily I have saved enough to get the build I want with no problem.

 

But she is very cool about it and has no problem with me splurging on this hobby of mine.

I am now disabled and retired, and she understands how much enjoyment I get out of doing this.

 

NZXT is what I have with my current build, wanting to check out what others are out there I might like to get.

Kind of been eyeballing the EVGA DG86 or DG87 case.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Archie said:

Don are you going with 32 GB ram? 

 

I am going with 32GB. 

Have not really checked into it too closely yet, I know the MB I will be getting - EVGA Z390 Dark has support for DDR4 4133 MHz+.

But whatever ram I go with I will definitely be getting 32GB.

 

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I've just completed a build consisting of new mobo, i7-8086K, M.2 Nvme and M.2 SATA with 280mm Corsair liquid cooler. I'm staying with the 2 GTX 1070s SLI until I see what the new GPUs are doing.

 

For RAM I went with this Corsair 32Gb 3600 DDR4 kit with it's own cooling fan. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233978

 

M.2 Nvme is the way to go for OS and IL*2 (DCS if you really must) but be aware it needs to be treated a little differently than other harddrives when loading the OS and designating it as your boot option. This Youtube explains it fairly well. 

 

 

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Have recently bought a Thermaltake core X5 tempered glass edition case, very impressed so far.. will take E-ATX motherboards horizontally and multiple 360 radiators (6 max) multiple 200mm fans and 2 psu's. It is Big! Previously I always went for mini ITX builds so was time for a shake up. Should be quiet, cool and easy to work on and very versatile . Horizontal MB is a plus in my personal preference, all my builds have been in this format previously. This case should last me a long time and many iterations 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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5 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Have recently bought a Thermaltake core X5 tempered glass edition case, very impressed so far.. will take E-ATX motherboards horizontally and multiple 360 radiators (6 max) multiple 200mm fans and 2 psu's. It is Big! Previously I always went for mini ITX builds so was time for a shake up. Should be quiet, cool and easy to work on and very versatile . Horizontal MB is a plus in my personal preference, all my builds have been in this format previously. This case should last me a long time and many iterations 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Thanks for the info, I will certainly check it out.

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On 10/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, dburne said:

I guess what I am trying to wrap my arms around, is m2 versus m2 Nvme?

What is the real world difference between those two? And would games benefit from either of those technologies?

 

Keep in mind I will have my games on a separate drive than Windows and apps.

 

You will get zero measurable benefit going NVMe over 'regular' m.2 SSD for gaming. You can Google for the benchmarks but someone tested it and found identical (within margin of error) differences. If you have giant video files you're editing and need fast sequential transfers, NVMe is what you want, but for gaming you can save the money and just buy non-NVMe. I would absolutely *not* put spinning rust in a new build these days -- my current rig has 1.75TB of SSD in it.

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4 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

About NVMe drives.....

I was looking at this device

https://www.asus.com/Motherboard-Accessory/HYPER-M-2-X16-CARD-V2/

and imagined four 1TB Samsung 970 Pro hooked together....:wacko:

 

One can dream...:biggrin:

You can make large volumes by striping some SSD‘s and combining them. That is about it. RAID0 or 1.

 

Anything sensible RAID mode beyond that requires you to pay good $ for an „unlock dongle“.

 

Also, striping SSD will quickly make your 4xPCIe chocke your transfer rates. You can indeed achieve ridiculously high transfer rates, but only on socket 2066 mainboards. For these CPU (Skylake-X etc), you have more PCIe lanes directly to the CPU and you can use those to connect the SSD. Thus, it wouldn‘t require you to run the GPU on 8xPCIe (as on „super modern“ socket 1151v2 mainboards) to get 8 lanes for your storage.

 

It is the reason I spent the buck for the i9-7900X. For content creation, those transfer rates really can pay off (besides having the possibility to put in that many SSD in your box).

 

For gaming, you will not notice at all if an SSD is hooked up propperly or is on the chipset.

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Finally got my EVGA RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra I have had on pre-order yesterday evening.

 

Now decision time, save it for new upcoming build ( still waiting on availability of couple of parts), or go ahead and throw it in my current rig...

I am thinking maybe I will give in to putting in this rig while I wait for rest of parts on new build.

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Put it in the rig to test it, it might not work...

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I second the motion to install to your current rig. It would be interesting to hear how it runs in your pc and in VR vs your TI1080. It will no doubt add some real kick to your upcoming beast! 

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7 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

I second the motion to install to your current rig. It would be interesting to hear how it runs in your pc and in VR vs your TI1080. It will no doubt add some real kick to your upcoming beast! 

 

Not so big an improvement, but some.

I was able to up my graphics some ( from High to Ultra and SS from 1.4-1.5 so far) and still maintain my good performance.

I don't think my current build is feeding the hungry beast as much as it would like. 

It will be interesting to see how everything does once I get this new build complete here in the next few weeks.

 

If one only uses VR for IL-2 and already has a 1080 card, especially 1080 Ti, I would not suggest the change to 2080 Ti  especially

considering the cost involved. 

 

Edited by dburne

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Thanks for the results dburne. I imagine when that card is pushed by the 9900k you're going to run it will do much more for your vr experience.

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10 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

Thanks for the results dburne. I imagine when that card is pushed by the 9900k you're going to run it will do much more for your vr experience.

 

Yeah I am hoping for at least some improvement.

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Have had the M2 Samsung 970 EVO 500 up and running a while now.  Was it worth it, yup.  It's really for the Op system, boot times are a bit quicker than with the older WDC 250 SSD, had the games on a separate Crucial SSD.  Where it's really potent is load times in DCS, pretty sure it's less than a fourth of the time it used to take.  Still running the games off the older cleaned up SSD's.  The length of load times was extremely annoying especially when limited on time, or doing testing hopping in and out.

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20 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Have had the M2 Samsung 970 EVO 500 up and running a while now.  Was it worth it, yup.  It's really for the Op system, boot times are a bit quicker than with the older WDC 250 SSD, had the games on a separate Crucial SSD.  Where it's really potent is load times in DCS, pretty sure it's less than a fourth of the time it used to take.  Still running the games off the older cleaned up SSD's.  The length of load times was extremely annoying especially when limited on time, or doing testing hopping in and out.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

For my upcoming build, I have now a 1TB Samsung 970 Pro m.2 Nvme. Also have a 1TB Samsung 860 Evo Sata SSD.

Thinking of adding another m.2 SSD, either another 1TB 970 Pro m.2 Nvme, or a 2TB m.2 Samsung ( non-Nvme).

 

Not really sure difference between an m.2 Nvme SSD and a regular m.2 SSD.

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43 minutes ago, dburne said:

Not really sure difference between an m.2 Nvme SSD and a regular m.2 SSD.

M.2 is just a form factor. NVMe is the logical interface. A “regular” non-NVMe M.2 SSD will operate at SATA speeds (much slower). Whether this translates into significant real-world improvements depends on the particular application.

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6 hours ago, dburne said:

Not really sure difference between an m.2 Nvme SSD and a regular m.2 SSD.

You will absolutely not notice a difference between „the proper way to attach storage“ and hooking them up on the SATA, beyond sequential read and write that can get capped on modern SSD. For loading games, this will not be noticeable.

 

Large SATA SSD are actually great for games as they are cheap. You can also stripe them together for making a large game partition. Sequencial read differences amongst SSD are irrelevant for preceived game loading times. Creating a larger volume is more important.

 

As you are doing this on a 1151(v2) socket platform (I‘m guessing here), you squeezing all storage along with peripherals through the QPI (essentially 4xPCIE) so you shouldn‘t have too much hope for what is really high throughput.

 

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For the amount of money spend on this build, might as well go with the m.2 drives from samsung and run the main OS on them.

 

I know for a fact an m.2 drive blows an ssd out of the water in star citizen, difference was  "apparent".

 

 

But in a game's like this?, doubt it.

Edited by icecream

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10 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

M.2 is just a form factor. NVMe is the logical interface. A “regular” non-NVMe M.2 SSD will operate at SATA speeds (much slower). Whether this translates into significant real-world improvements depends on the particular application.

 

Ok thanks much!

Ok one last question before I pull the trigger on another m.2 Nvme drive.

 

I can get another Samsung 970 Pro m.2 Nvme 1TB for $393, or - I can get a Samsung 970 Evo  m.2 Nvme 1TB  for $228 ( Amazon currently has marked down 72 bucks).

This drive will be totally dedicated to games.

 

Any thoughts on the difference between the two?

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4 hours ago, dburne said:

can get another Samsung 970 Pro m.2 Nvme 1TB for $393, or - I can get a Samsung 970 Evo  m.2 Nvme 1TB  for $228 ( Amazon currently has marked down 72 bucks).

This drive will be totally dedicated to games.

 

Any thoughts on the difference between the two?

They are largely identical for gaming. The Pro generally has slightly higher specs, which won't matter much. The Pro also has twice the write endurance, but that doesn't matter for consumer applications. Only get the Pro if you must have the premium product.

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10 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

They are largely identical for gaming. The Pro generally has slightly higher specs, which won't matter much. The Pro also has twice the write endurance, but that doesn't matter for consumer applications. Only get the Pro if you must have the premium product.

 

Thanks much - I have pulled the trigger on the 1TB Samsung  970 Evo m.2 Nvme.

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6 hours ago, icecream said:

I know for a fact an m.2 drive blows an ssd out of the water in star citizen, difference was  "apparent".

 

There are a number of m.2 drives that run at the same speed as SATA SSDs, so you can't simply pick m.2 and know it's going to be faster. The testing I remember for SC was that yes, Intel Optane and m.2 NVMe drives did better than an SSD, and way way better than mechanical drives, but that game is still alpha and totally unoptimized. 

 

Again, here's actual loading times of real production games NVMe vs SSD. The differences are not very big. Far Cry 5 level loading, SSD 12.25 seconds, NVMe 12.15 seconds. Not apparent at all.

 

 

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