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ESCOMM_FlyMaker

More difficulty options (SP and MP)

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This is a community discussion not a suggestion for devs right now. I'am trying to get more ideas first 😀

 

IL2 Great Battles have place to different players, we have place for casual and hardcore pilots so why not expand more difficulty settings?

 

Server owner's should be able to force no Hud information at all. No throttle percentage, no engine warnings, no compass...

 

We can have a minimap as separated option without icons and hud. Full screen map to low spec hardware freeze the game sometimes. With this option we can make a more imprecise navigation system separeted by areas. Open minimap show your area but not your exactly position ( 4 or 6 entire quadrants. Your plane is there but you don't have the exactly location, you change this area mini maps update to the next ). So not too hardcore not too arcade style

 

What you think guys? We can have more and more immersion and more options to tweak tastes. Everyone wons

 

Cheers

Edited by ESCOMM_FlyMaker
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I agree with you FlyMaker!


HUD could have just chating log and at this point, generally chat is suppressed by attacking logs and I would like if it be changed to separate it.

Edited by 3./JG15_HansPhilipp
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Jason did a Q&A from reddit recently, and the question was put to him asking if he would allow server admins to control tech chat, hud instruments etc.
He said he was not opposed to it, but needed to check why they didn't do it that way in the first place. It's something a lot of online players would like to see.

 

For single player, or for your own enjoyment in MP you can disable these features via gui options i think it is called

 

Edited by =FEW=Herne
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2 hours ago, ESCOMM_FlyMaker said:

No throttle percentage

Not everyone has an axis for everything and have to assign these sort of things to buttons where you have no positional reference that a lever gives you.

Edited by Garven_Dreis

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29 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Not everyone has an axis for everything and have to assign these sort of things to buttons where you have no positional reference that a lever gives you.

You have reference on plane gauges. RPM, Mainfold Pressure, A.T.A.... You have everything you need

42 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

For single player, or for your own enjoyment in MP you can disable these features via gui options i think it is called


I use that for SP but in multiplayer cause a huge disadvantage. MP is the focus for me

I hope they make theses changes. Will no hurt more options

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47 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Not everyone has an axis for everything and have to assign these sort of things to buttons where you have no positional reference that a lever gives you.

Gauges. The whole idea of flying without a hud is to have to use the cockpit instruments and to actually learn the aircraft instead of just the percentages.

 

It's funny how dependant you become when using the hud all the time. My buddy and I were flying another sim that didn't have a hud or anything and I asked him what his settings were, he said, " idk, about 70% throttle 70%prop" lol, I told him to look at the dang instrument panel. We've become so accustomed to using the percentages that we don't even take the time to actually learn the aircraft, it's a real shame.

Edited by Legioneod
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We also have to remember that something *simple* like turning one element off might be hugely difficult.

 

Another game I know "simply" tried to change its font.

 

But that font was hardwired into so many things that it was only possible as part of an enormous undertaking to re engineer the entire engine.

 

To us gamers, we probably thought they needed to download another .ttf and juggle with the kerning.:)

 

That said, I too would like the option, ideally, to have more control over my HUD and what is and what is not displayed, as well as where.

 

Ive always been a firm believer in "player customisation" from the GUI to the skins etc etc.

 

Whether its doable or not, i dont know, but there's no harm brainstorming an ideal scenario :)

Edited by OrLoK

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19 minutes ago, OrLoK said:

We also have to remember that something *simple* like turning one element off might be hugely difficult.

 

Another game I know "simply" tried to change its font.

 

But that font was hardwired into so many things that it was only possible as part of an enormous undertaking to re engineer the entire engine.

 

To us gamers, we probably thought they needed to download another .ttf and juggle with the kerning.:)

 

That said, I too would like the option, ideally, to have more control over my HUD and what is and what is not displayed, as well as where.

 

Ive always been a firm believer in "player customisation" from the GUI to the skins etc etc.

 

Whether its doable or not, i dont know, but there's no harm brainstorming an ideal scenario :)

The thing is, it's already an option in-game. I don't see how it would be any more difficult to make it server controlled instead of player controlled.

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I dont use the HUD, but since the oil temp on the 109 does not work   , you will never know when your oil temp is too hot.

Regardless I still dont use it.

Its the only disadvantage I see, when a gauge is not modeled.

 

I am in favor to have it implemented in some servers like TAW.

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The technocrat is already separated into “Technical” and “Tips” but the distinction between the two isn’t clear. 

It would make sense if:

Technical = Operation of controls a pilot would know by feel without looking at their own controls. Those would be things like throttle or flaps position. This could be allowed in “ExpertL

Tips = Information that would normally be communicated through instruments or understanding of the aircraft systems. Items such as “Emergency Mode” or “Overheat” and “Gun out of Ammo”. Those would be excluded from “Expert”

This would make sense to me. 

On 9/25/2018 at 12:09 PM, Garven_Dreis said:

Not everyone has an axis for everything and have to assign these sort of things to buttons where you have no positional reference that a lever gives you.

Agree. Having the position of your controls shown isn’t really an “aid” or cheat. The real pilot would know, for example when they had finished extending the flaps and not have to actually look at the wheel to see if it stopped turning. 

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3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The technocrat is already separated into “Technical” and “Tips” but the distinction between the two isn’t clear. 

It would make sense if:

Technical = Operation of controls a pilot would know by feel without looking at their own controls. Those would be things like throttle or flaps position. This could be allowed in “ExpertL

Tips = Information that would normally be communicated through instruments or understanding of the aircraft systems. Items such as “Emergency Mode” or “Overheat” and “Gun out of Ammo”. Those would be excluded from “Expert”

This would make sense to me. 

Agree. Having the position of your controls shown isn’t really an “aid” or cheat. The real pilot would know, for example when they had finished extending the flaps and not have to actually look at the wheel to see if it stopped turning. 

I disagree. Techno chat needs to be done away with completely in expert mode.

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On 9/25/2018 at 7:09 PM, Garven_Dreis said:

Not everyone has an axis for everything and have to assign these sort of things to buttons where you have no positional reference that a lever gives you.

It was solved in RoF by displaying mini axes in lower part of the screen, you didn't know if you have 85 or 86% of the throttle/radiator etc. but you had overal idea like real pilot had.

And what was the most important you didn't know - without looking at gauges in the cockpit - if you are overheating, damaged, leaking. You had to use gauges and other output and it was great and immersive.

 

Adding an option to turn off technochat would be fantastic, it's already the most supported suggestion in IL-2 forum.

Coding this feature would take 1 hour, it's already in the game but in other place - you can turn it off in SP (for yourself) but not in MP as server admin.

In RoF, DCS, old IL-2 1946 and many other sims  there is a lot of servers with this chat blocked.

Edited by sereme1
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Imho there should always be option to see some kind of, even if inaccurate, position for at least some axes. Doesnt need to be 1 % accurate, for that one can look at rpm, ata etc. gauges.

 

If I actually sat in a cockpit and say pushed throttle forward, I would remember where I left it and feel my left arm's position. Right now my throttle is such that looking at the controller I have absolutely no idea about its position - I need to move it to see percentage shown on screen or alternatively look at the gauges. Its the same thing with trims. Thus I dont think zero technochat necessarily provides as immersive and realistic simulation experience as some technochat.

 

ps. when it comes to engine modes, it doesnt help that the mode limits arent always where the manual says they are.

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We have to divide “technochat” into two parts:

 

1. Positions of axes (manifold, RPM, flaps etc.). Presenting position of axes in exact percent % instead of general bars is just worse, immersion killing version of Rise of Flight system.

 

2. Full HUD and real time full digital diagnostic of nearly all systems of the aircraft like in the newest jet fighters. Not like in WWI WWII plane.

It inform you about overheating of oil/engine/water, current engine regime, fuel reserve, inappropriate mixture, fuel/water/oil leakages, oil/water systems damage, gear position, gunner being hit, guns overheating, gunsight parameters etc. etc.

image.thumb.png.72c12e31c50ca85bbc008a1c8ff7aa4c.png

 

 

It renders most cockpit gauges completely pointless - manifold gauges, RPM gauges, fuel gauges, compasses, flaps marks/indicators, trim indicators, gear position indicators, cowling position indicators, water/engine/oil temperature gauges/thermometers, gunsight range/wingspan selectors, horizontal stabiliser position, supercharger indicators, mixture selectors and many others. There is no point looking at them.

image.png.5d1671c2dfd040a50d9cc2ea0846d645.pngimage.png.ebc9585f5571775cfe4fdc48d0c260d3.png

All oil/engine/water gauges are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely you are overhearting.

 

image.png.6e03942503f50f1458e66d335bf0237b.png

Flaps marks are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what is the position of flaps.

 

image.png.844bed00dc7f086769ef643f5a9e4b44.png

Gear indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even faster the gear is up or down.

 

image.png.21a79cef6866888f2f5e4209c6d2e773.png

Gunsight range/wingspan indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what you set.

 

image.png.649d6c81460ac7e3f22c4687e0a1ca4a.png

Mixture indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position and even tell you - without looking at RPM or the exhaust colour and smoke - you have to change your mix because it is not optimal!

 

image.png.678cae1d5cee22254ca7e728d2c71f57.png

Radiator cowlings indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position and even tell you you are overheating.

 

image.png.05a6e9e8b6653e857e9a16a07663cfd9.png

Supercharger levers position are redundant - techno will tell you without looking what is your setting..

 

image.png.75d94682af801cf43e3711193dd40028.png

Stabilizer angle indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position - in real plane pilot set this before the manuver like dive, turn, takeoff or landing - here because of techno you will dynamically change the position during the fiercest dogfight without taking your eye off the tagret.

 

image.png.114def475c5462f24f212c75a438aeb7.png

RPM indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the setting in %, you also don't use it to set te mixture - techno will tell you more precisily and remember when it's not optimal.

 

Manifold indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position, regime - you don't even have to know where manifold gauge is...

 

 image.png.1e35b071a172af38a754491fbdf5af51.png

Gear external indicators used in case of gauge failure are redundant - techno will tell you without looking  the gear position.

 

image.png.2ae1ba39b7c98571ebc5505aa3c0708a.png

Fuel indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking you are bingo 10 minutes fuel, you have to return to base.

 

image.png.4433e4fe20cf0569dfcacfc0496f0d6d.png

Flaps indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what is the position of flaps, you don't even operate in angle but in percent.

 

and many more.

 

It also kills the immersion when you hear from your leader: manifold 73%, RPM 86%, flaps 56%, water radiator 62% etc. and you set all parameters according to artificial % without even looking to the cockpit gauges and indicators.

 

Adding an option to block it on the server would create new part of the game – using cockpit gauges and indicators which are redundant with techno which is far faster, far more condensed and far more precise – very similar to V generation fighters when pilot is constantly aware of every parameter and malfunction without taking his eyes off the target. Very detailed, beautifully modeled functional cockpits created by developers are redundant right now.

 

First part should be changed to overall bars (instead of exact %) RoF immersive form for people without any gear. In RoF form it will not give the player any significant advantage.

When it comes to second part – if IL-2 should attract realism fans – have to have an option, for server admin, of be blocked like it is in other simulators because it distorts and twists the way of WW I and WW II air combat.

 

It will give full “technochat” for novice players and no “technochat” for realism fans. I hope the developers can give us this option.

Il-2 has already overperformed older simulators in all respects - except this one.

 

Everything is modeled in the game to work perfectly without the "technochat", many people fly without techno restricting themselves, the only thing we need is an option for server administrator.

Cheers and have fantastic day!:fly:

 

Edited by bies
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9 hours ago, Legioneod said:

I disagree. Techno chat needs to be done away with completely in expert mode.

Well we don’t want to make “Expert” mode more difficult than reality. In reality you don’t need to actually look at the flaps wheel on the 109 turning to know that you are lowering the flaps and to what degree. That’s a good example of using the techno chat. When a real pilot is landing the 109 they can feel when they’ve finished lowering the flaps by feel. They don’t have to take their eyes off the approach to the runway and look down at the flaps wheel. Having position indicators in the “Technical” category makes sense and isn’t really a “cheat”. Again remember that some players don’t have everything assigned to some axis controller and have buttons or keys assigned to prop pitch and mixture etc.  

 

The “Tips” category should include messages like “Engine Damage” or “Overheating”

not just for difficulty’s sake but I really like being immersed in the aircraft and having to understand damage and engine operation by instruments or even the sound of the engine. That pulls you into the nicely done cockpits and instruments. 

There is already the option in the game to separate Tips and Technical, just some of the items need to be moved into the Tips category. Then Tips could be set server side if desired. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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48 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In reality you don’t need to actuaï»żlly look at the flaps wheel on the 109 turning to know that you are lowering the flaps and to what degree.

Well, the real 109 pilot actually indeed had to look at flaps marks on his wing to know to what angle he lowered his flaps (what is modeled in the game but many players don't even know about that because this technochat😂) 

That’s a good example ofï»ż how technochat renders cocpit indicators useless to the point many players don't even know developers modeled many features nad indicators in their game because with full hud in every server there is no purpose to look at cockpit indicators ;)

Quote

image.png

Do you think real 109 pilot lowered flaps by "feel" idk. counting revolutions in his mind? Or reading percents on his binoculars?

Or maybe by looking at marks on his wing?

 

And one more time:

Quote

It was solved in RoF by displaying mini axes in lower part of the screen, you didn't know if you have 85 or 86% of the throttle/radiator etc. but you had overal idea like real pilot had.ï»ż

 

So virtual axes without exact percent like in Rise of Flight could stay and make players without any joystick perfectly aware of every axis, even more than real pilot, but not in form of exact % but like in RoF , more or less bars.

Edited by sereme1
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So true. I fly mostly DCS because i can't attract my mates to IL2 because this HUD.

They don't even care about clickable cockpits, it's not that crucial in WW2 birds but they couldn't go with this HUD.

The only thing you can do now is to turn it off only for yourself and lose against guy who don't have to move his eyes from the target even for one second like F-35... The only purpose of cockpits and gauges right now to obstruct your vision outside... 

 

I was hoping TAW would have this HUD turned off and admins tried but failed because it is not included in game option.

 

Devs please have mercy and allow your game to attract more DCS people by adding this option to admin.

 

Edited by SailorMcintosh
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1 minute ago, SailorMcintosh said:

So true. I fly mostly DCS because i cant attract my mates to IL2 because this HUD.

They don't even care about clickable cockpits, it's not that important in WW2 sim but they couldn't go with this HUD. The only thing you can do now is to turn it off only for yourself and lose against guy who don't have to move his eyes from the target even for one second... The only purpose of cockpits and gauges right now to obstruct your vision outside...

 

I was hoping TAW would have this HUD turned off and admins tried but failed because it is not included in game option.

 

Devs please have mercy and allow your game to attract more DCS people by adding this option to admin.

 

 

Not just DCS, but flight sim enthusiasts in general

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And what have changed since Rise of Flight?
In RoF you could fly on servers with easier settings if you prefer, with helpers and you could fly on servers without any technochat (bars - axes only) as you prefer.
Why now it's different and you can't turn this off as admin even if people want to fly like that? What have changed since RoF?
 

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35 minutes ago, sereme1 said:

Well, the real 109 pilot actually indeed had to look at flaps marks on his wing to know to what angle he lowered his flaps (what is modeled in the game but many players don't even know about that because this technochat

I know that. This lowering is done at takeoff. I’m talking about when landing. Again a real pilot would know that so many turns of the wheel, I think it’s 4, would lower the flaps completely. You’d know that you’ve finished lowering the flaps because you’d made so many turns of the wheel and it stops turning. 

Control position is a pretty obvious thing to have in “Expert” technocrat. 

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Ok, third time lucky:

Quote

It was solved in RoF by displaying mini axes in lower part of the screen, you didn't know if you have 85 or 86% of the throttle/radiator etc. but you had overal idea like real pilot had.ï»ż

 

So virtual axes without exact percent like in Rise of Flight could stay and make players without any joystick perfectly aware of every axis, even more than real pilot, but not in form of exact % but like in RoF , more or less bars.

 

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20 minutes ago, SailorMcintosh said:

The only thing you can do now is to turn it off only for yourself and lose against guy who don't have to move his eyes from the target even for one second like F-35...

You are blaming the HUD for losing? Have you considered that you might be losing for other reasons?

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It was rude.

BTW. In DCS without HUD i'm doing well, here also.

Go to server with target icons and turn them off just for yourself. Oh, and don't blame the lack of icons if you lose.

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5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I know that. This lowering is done at takeoff. I’m talking about when landing. Again a real pilot would know that so many turns of the wheel, I think it’s 4, would lower the flaps completely. You’d know that you’ve finished lowering the flaps because you’d made so many turns of the wheel and it stops turning. 

Control position is a pretty obvious thing to have in “Expert” technocrat. 

 

For a long while now I have set up my hud through gui options to only display the chat window. In 109's I look at the left flap to see how far it is extended. You see a marker for every ten degrees.

The cockpit instruments tell me everything I feel I need to know. If this gets implemented then I hope that Server admins will have some limited control over what information they can display, but for my personal preference I would be interested in playing on servers that have all helpers disabled.

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27 minutes ago, SailorMcintosh said:

 

I was hoping TAW would have this HUD turned off and admins tried but failed because it is not included in game option.

We are looking forward to this option as well.

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8 minutes ago, SailorMcintosh said:

It was rude.

BTW. In DCS without HUD i'm doing well, here also.

Go to server with target icons and turn them off just for yourself. Oh, and don't blame the lack of icons if you lose.

Icons are a much bigger aid than technocrat and alter the gameplay much more. I’m sure everyone agrees that Exoert mode excludes icons. 

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@SharpeXB Ok, for the fourth time; what you are talking about is NOT being discussed in this topic. Overall, not exact%,  RoF like axis bars CAN stay.

The HUD giving awareness, diagnostic and information bigger than modern computerised jet fighter in WWI and WWII plane and rendering cockpit indicators useless should be option to choose by admin.

Edited by sereme1

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9 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

We are looking forward to this option as well.

 

Devs, if even server administrators like TAW want this option please simply give it to them.
Server administrators are the bread and butter of this game, they attract people to play, they maintain servers with their own money, they create missions and scripts using their own time. They are backbone of the community.

Please don't stay one step behind in this regard.

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Am i so glad people are joining the discussion...

 

This will help everyone to match the perfect sim/arcade balance preferences.

 

More options never should be a problem.

 

Technochat is really immersion killing. How awesome will be VR without that?

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4 minutes ago, sereme1 said:

@SharpeXB Ok, for the fourth time; what you are talking about is NOT being discussed in this topic. Overall, not exact%,  RoF like axis bars CAN stay.

Is that the only topic here? Doesn’t seem like it...

Whats difference is ther really between a graphic bar and a percentage? Doesn’t really matter to me. 

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It's huge, play RoF and you are going to find out. With inexact small graphic bars you don't open the throttle using "pernect" not even knowing where is manifold gauge, you don't set RPM by % don't even knowing where is RPM indicator in the cockpit, you don't set the mix without looking at RPM and so on, and so no.

 

But we are talking about the rest. 

 

Look at the table @bies placed, do you really think the right side is more attractive than the left side? Even on the most realistic servers? Contrary to all other flight sims except War Thunder (if WT is a sim at all...)?

Edited by sereme1

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8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Is that the only topic here? Doesn’t seem like it...

Whats difference is ther really between a graphic bar and a percentage? Doesn’t really matter to me. 

Thats is not the only topic but is an important topic

 

You should have option to choose what you what in technochat. I dont think this too hard to do

2 minutes ago, sereme1 said:

It's huge, play RoF and you are going to find out. With inexact small graphic bars you don't open the throttle using "pernect" not even knowing where is manifold gauge, you don't set RPM by % don't even knowing where is RPM indicator in the cockpit, you don't set the mix without looking at RPM and so on, and so no.

 

But we are talking about the rest. 

Indeed % give a huge advantage since we are playing a combat simulator where fast actions and reflexes make difference

 

1 sec is a big advantage

Edited by ESCOMM_FlyMaker
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i have been flying online without any tech-chat for some months now and i dont do any worse, but it would be nice to fly against players with the same difficulty settings. it only takes a couple of hours to get used to not having techchat, but its worth it. i feel more like i fly the aircraft when i have to look at the instruments rather than % and icons in the techchat. as for expert mode, this should at least get rid of the damage indicators, engine mode and overheat warnings, so server admins can choose for themselves. its also more exciting to watch the streaming fluid to see if its fuel or coolant. :) its like the gps-icon, some servers still use even if you can turn it off, techchat should be the same.

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9 minutes ago, Gridset said:

i have been flying online without any tech-chat

 

Big amount of players fly without technochat artificially restricting themselves, because they prefer immersion even at cost of decreasing their chances to win.

Edited by bies
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7 minutes ago, bies said:

 

Big amount of players fly without technochat artificially restricting themselves, because they prefer immersion even at cost of decreasing their chances to win.

 

It is a very rare occurrence I will enable Techno Chat.

Much prefer having it off.

 

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I'm also trying to restrict myself but the fact it can't be set server side like in every other flight simulator is a great shame.

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1 hour ago, sereme1 said:

It's huge, play RoF and you are going to find out. With inexact small graphic bars you don't open the throttle using "pernect" not even knowing where is manifold gauge, you don't set RPM by % don't even knowing where is RPM indicator in the cockpit, you don't set the mix without looking at RPM and so on, and so no.

I guess I don’t use technocrat very much or pay attention to it. The chat only tells you % and not actual RPMs or ATA so it’s not really that much use compared to the gauges. If I want to set 2600 RPMs for example, I’m just going to do the obvious and look at the instruments, not try to figure out what that is in % on different aircraft. 

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