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109 dog fighting and stalling

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4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Not having much gas to play with and generally a design that tries to kill you on every take-off and on most landings is not a good way to go. Many - even highly experienced - warbird drivers are rather cautious towards the airplane.

 

Sounds like the Sopwith Camel, which had just...so many problems with the design, including a narrow wheelbase and near the CG.  I wonder how the 109 compares with the pilot-error loss rate for the Camel.  Almost as many pilots were killed in accidents as in combat.  I remember reading somewhere that a large percentage of those accidents happened on the first flight a pilot took in the Camel.  In that case, it's less about the training standards and more about how its torque/flight/landing characteristics were just too different and unstable from any other rotary trainer craft.

 

On the other hand, it was the deadliest Allied plane of the war, and for those who could tame her, she was a beast. It was a dangerous design, but was the Camel a shitty design?  I doubt the aces who flew it would say so. 

Edited by EmerlistDavjack
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On 9/18/2018 at 4:16 AM, Kandiru said:

I set my stabilizer axis trim at around -39, dunno why but this is the best, quick reaction to stalls with the MFG Crosswinds pedals helps a lot. The 100mm Warthog extension also helps greatly, zero sensitivities and dead zones with this stick now.

As others said, discipline is the key,  becoming I-16 or Spitfire fodder in Wings of Liberty is a perennial with me after the thrill of a kill, as sooner or later I tire out and greed takes over.

I adjust across different speeds and use it in turns.  I tend to be a bit nose heavy in most a/c and usually cruise arround at about -70.

Edited by Joeasyrida

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On 9/19/2018 at 9:59 AM, Willy__ said:

 

I'll have to disagree. The 109 is good aircraft, but it doesnt make a pilot good, on the contrary, you can easily recognize the bad pilots by the way they fly, and the characteristics of the 109 certainly doesnt help the new and bad pilots who like to dive in the first target he sees and immediatelly starts to turn fight.


Exactly, and I was thinking of including one such fight in a little collection of annotated fight videos I'm drawing up.

 

La5 (myself) vs Bf109 (opponent)
This guy had the E advantage on me, but I got behind him (through luck). I was stalling out in a horizontal (very slight) climbing turn. There's no way I can get my nose on the 109 in that situation. He can keep pulling the turn, or climb a little during it, and keep his E. Meanwhile the La5 loses E very quickly. Well, the split second before I disengage he rolls inverted and dives. Ok, so now I can get my E back, cut his turn using my roll rate (and my lower speed helps me cut inside his dive too) get shots on him. I do so, but the hot conditions mean I fail to get my nose up enough, but only just, so we go into another sustained turn where I can't get nose on. Has he learned his lesson from mistake 1? Lol, no, he does the same thing again and I nail him in the dive. 


I see this far too often, people taking on the advice that the "109 isn't a turn fighter" and so interrupting their turns with rolls and such. The 109 is an exceptional low speed turn fighter so long as the opponent doesn't get guns on you in the first 1/2 circle of the turn. It can do sustained turns better than any other aircraft.

Edited by peregrine7

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So nobody adresses the actual Point of Stall Characteristics? 

 

Cliffs of Dover has childishly cartoony Physics and the Aircraft perform nowhere near reaility in Handling and neither Slats nor Tailplanes are properly modelled, not even Propeller Wash. 

 

Battle of Stalingrad is far more advanced. Cartwheeling and "Backflips" are part of High Speed Aerobatics Displays and are exactly what you are showing. The 109s Problem is that the Wings don't stall cleanly because of the Slats and thus the Manouvers in CloD are impossible IRL with a 109 like Aircraft. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, peregrine7 said:


Exactly, and I was thinking of including one such fight in a little collection of annotated fight videos I'm drawing up.

 

La5 (myself) vs Bf109 (opponent)
This guy had the E advantage on me, but I got behind him (through luck). I was stalling out in a horizontal (very slight) climbing turn. There's no way I can get my nose on the 109 in that situation. He can keep pulling the turn, or climb a little during it, and keep his E. Meanwhile the La5 loses E very quickly. Well, the split second before I disengage he rolls inverted and dives. Ok, so now I can get my E back, cut his turn using my roll rate (and my lower speed helps me cut inside his dive too) get shots on him. I do so, but the hot conditions mean I fail to get my nose up enough, but only just, so we go into another sustained turn where I can't get nose on. Has he learned his lesson from mistake 1? Lol, no, he does the same thing again and I nail him in the dive. 


I see this far too often, people taking on the advice that the "109 isn't a turn fighter" and so interrupting their turns with rolls and such. The 109 is an exceptional low speed turn fighter so long as the opponent doesn't get guns on you in the first 1/2 circle of the turn. It can do sustained turns better than any other aircraft.

Sorry but no, get into a sustained turn fight whilst im co E with you in my Yak.

You will die in 2/3 circles, as i will pop flaps and pull hillarious AOA's. 

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27 minutes ago, EAF331_Sunde said:

Sorry but no, get into a sustained turn fight whilst im co E with you in my Yak.

You will die in 2/3 circles, as i will pop flaps and pull hillarious AOA's. 

 

Does lowering flaps increase or decrease critical AoA?  Discuss.  Use both sides of the paper.

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6 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

So nobody adresses the actual Point of Stall Characteristics? 

 

Cliffs of Dover has childishly cartoony Physics and the Aircraft perform nowhere near reaility in Handling and neither Slats nor Tailplanes are properly modelled, not even Propeller Wash. 

 

Battle of Stalingrad is far more advanced. Cartwheeling and "Backflips" are part of High Speed Aerobatics Displays and are exactly what you are showing. The 109s Problem is that the Wings don't stall cleanly because of the Slats and thus the Manouvers in CloD are impossible IRL with a 109 like Aircraft. 

 

 

Is well prooved on other post and admited by devs that there is a problem with 109s sustained turn rate. 

Is quite curious that the slats should help A LOT on the stall speed and stability on turns. They can be deployed asymetrically as needed on the other hand planes with no slats lose the sustentation on one wing at first so that makes unestable turn. 

You can see videos from the cockpit of the G4 red 7 where the slat is opened and the planes makes no woobling. The time the plane is woobling should be where other planes are spining.

Other German ace told about that the 109 could keep turns with spits if using slats but most of the pilots got a litle bit afraids so they stoped turning when the slats opened. 

A violent deployment can happen also making the plane to shake of course in a violent turn. Gunter rall reported that on an interview about ruining gunnery because the slats but better to have the gunnery ruined that to be spining on a stall.

At very low speds on the game slats are making the plane to fall from sky and bleeding E as hell while yak flaps are the king on this kind of combat.

Edited by E69_geramos109
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I have been practicing offline in the 109 as my first plane, and I have a question about 109 flaps keybindings:

 

So there appears to be no lever Axis available for Flaps (for some reason), and you have to use buttons.  I use two on the base of my joystick.  It's just so slow?  Is there any way to speed up the flap response?  Cause trying to do it in a turn seems like I need to memorize a count for holding the button.  "One onethousand, two" and release?

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2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Does lowering flaps increase or decrease critical AoA?  Discuss.  Use both sides of the paper.

Hope on Berloga with me, turnfight me in the 109 i'll fly the yak.

Once i deploy flaps i will turn inside you within seconds and kill you.
100% of the time. 

Might not be AOA that changes, to be fair i dont care what changes, it just ends in the 109 missing a wing. :)

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15 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Does lowering flaps increase or decrease critical AoA?  Discuss.  Use both sides of the paper.

Do you have any video of a real life aerobatic Yak using or opening the landing flaps in any aerobatic maneuver? ... RC model planes are not valid.

The use of the landing flaps in aerobatic IRL Yak´s is very dangerous because the aircraft become nose-heavy, and drain a lot of speed. .. and you know it.
Several accidents was occurs due to this, the last in 2015.

c428b91d0d5d03c178d31091f3a9ba7d?width=1024
6753596-3x2-940x627.jpg


[edited]
P.S.:
the same is applicable for Spitfire and Fw-190, and rest of the airplanes with powered deployment flaps.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Does lowering flaps increase or decrease critical AoA?  Discuss.  Use both sides of the paper.

 

Popping flaps decreases AoA_crit.

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4 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Popping flaps decreases AoA_crit.

And decreases the speed a lot of.

 

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

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1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Do you have any video of a real life aerobatic Yak using or opening the landing flaps in any aerobatic maneuver? ... RC model planes are not valid.

The use of the landing flaps in aerobatic IRL Yak´s is very dangerous because the aircraft become nose-heavy, and drain a lot of speed. .. and you know it.
Several accidents was occurs due to this, the last in 2015.
 

The use of the Yak´s landing flaps in game in vertical climbs, or in combat manoeuvres is a cheat, supported by a very "optimistic" flight model... and everybody know it.
P.S.:
the same is applicable for Spitfire and Fw-190, and rest of the airplanes with powered deployment flaps.

Flaps were used in combat on occasion but I've only read or heard of a few accounts of flaps being used in combat and imo it wasn't as common as it is in-game.

Trying to use flaps in some aircraft could actually get you killed but this isnt represented in-game.

 

Flaps in combat are definitely overused in flight sims imo, there's really no penalty to using them.

There needs to be more variable when using flaps imo, some aircraft would never use flaps in combat due to various reasons, one being asymmetric deployment which isnt modeled in-game.

Edited by Legioneod

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7 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Do you have any video of a real life aerobatic Yak using or opening the landing flaps in any aerobatic maneuver? ... RC model planes are not valid.

The use of the landing flaps in aerobatic IRL Yak´s is very dangerous because the aircraft become nose-heavy, and drain a lot of speed. .. and you know it.
Several accidents was occurs due to this, the last in 2015.


The use of the Yak´s landing flaps in game in vertical climbs, or in combat manoeuvres is a cheat, supported by a very "optimistic" flight model... and everybody know it.
P.S.:
the same is applicable for Spitfire and Fw-190, and rest of the airplanes with powered deployment flaps.

 

I ask a simple question in response to an assertion that using flaps allows one to pull crazy AoA and I get this. :rolleyes:

 

Do people even read the links they post? That accident happened when the plane was already on the ground - it has nothing to do with flap use in the air.

 

Peninsula Aero Club president Peter Bernardi said Mr Wickham was lucky to have escaped uninjured.

“He finished his landing and one wheel went off the bitumen and into the grass,” he said.

“It flipped from the nose and onto its back.”

 

7 hours ago, EAF331_Sunde said:

 

 

If you slow down rapidly you may reduce the radius of your turn, which I agree may give you a shooting opportunity if the target does not see you doing it.  In a real world scenario of many against many slowing down that much would also have it's own disadvantages. The trouble is that using the distinctly unrealistic scenario of a one on one duel in MP as a test of FM realism is a hopeless enterprise.

 

 

 

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there are four marks on the left flap of the 109. Does the pilot handbook say when each setting should be used ? I assumed the first mark was a combat setting ?

 

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the marks is for degrees of flaps. each mark is 10degrees. so mark 2  for example is 20degrees which is good for take off.

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G-2 manual says 20 degrees for take off and fully down 40 degrees for landing. I have to say I never lower flaps for take off in my current F2-F4 careers, even with a bomb and full fuel load. Not enough time to get sorted out!  (I do not think the AI does either - will have to check on next sortie). I expect off a short runway it would be necessary.  I am also landing the 109 much more safely and smoothly with the flaps at 30 degrees rather than fully down.   

Edited by unreasonable

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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

G-2 manual says 20 degrees for take off and fully down 40 degrees for landing. I have to say I never lower flaps for take off in my current F2-F4 careers, even with a bomb and full fuel load. Not enough time to get sorted out!  (I do not think the AI does either - will have to check on next sortie). I expect off a short runway it would be necessary.  I am also landing the 109 much more safely and smoothly with the flaps at 30 degrees rather than fully down.   

I never use flaps on the take off as well. And on the landing i use full flaps with trim on nose up. I will test just 30 deg as you to see how it works.

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12 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

 

If you slow down rapidly you may reduce the radius of your turn, which I agree may give you a shooting opportunity if the target does not see you doing it.  In a real world scenario of many against many slowing down that much would also have it's own disadvantages. The trouble is that using the distinctly unrealistic scenario of a one on one duel in MP as a test of FM realism is a hopeless enterprise.

 

 

 

 

Might be, the quote i made was disputing this quote "109 can do sustained turns better than any other aircraft" 
To which i still respond with many many nopes. 

The yak will lol around you with flaps out in ANY type of turn scenario. Sure the 109 can (arugeably abuse) its adjustable stab, and get some pretty derpy high G pulls, but unless these result in an instant kill, It will bleed 90% of its energy doing this. 
The yak will not bleed much energy with flaps out. And i'd be shocked if you in a 109 actually managed to turn inside me, even using that trick. (I am still happy to have anyone do it to me) If you think i am wrong.


Also!
I never spoke of real world acm. I am talking about the game we are playing. 

 

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On 9/22/2018 at 2:23 AM, EAF331_Sunde said:

 

 

Might be, the quote i made was disputing this quote "109 can do sustained turns better than any other aircraft" 
To which i still respond with many many nopes. 

The yak will lol around you with flaps out in ANY type of turn scenario. Sure the 109 can (arugeably abuse) its adjustable stab, and get some pretty derpy high G pulls, but unless these result in an instant kill, It will bleed 90% of its energy doing this. 
The yak will not bleed much energy with flaps out. And i'd be shocked if you in a 109 actually managed to turn inside me, even using that trick. (I am still happy to have anyone do it to me) If you think i am wrong.


Also!
I never spoke of real world acm. I am talking about the game we are playing. 

 



And there lies the problem as you so correctly say:

"The Yak will not bleed much energy with flaps out"

So you have just dramatically increased the induced drag, yet for some reason you are not bleeding much energy??????????????

Flaps allow you to fly slower but you need to use more power to overcome the increase in drag.

So in a turning situation if you are turning so hard that you are near stalling, throwing flaps out will help for a fraction of a second before  you completely stall out.

I'm happy to be corrected, but if the thrust being produced by the engine can't keep the speed up to sustain the turn, throwing flaps out won't help as flaps do not generate thrust (contrary to the in game pilots who dump flaps in the vertical to reduce their stall speed..... when at that angle the flaps are only generating drag and zero lift and zero thrust).

I would honestly like to see real world aircraft try this (at a safe altitude) and see what happens.

Or perhaps the BA pilot who lost both engines on approach got it wrong by RETRACTING the flaps (not fully, but less than when he had working engines) to INCREASE the glide to make the runway..... 

Flaps WITH Energy (speed/thrust or altitude) = great

Flaps NO Energy (speed/thrust or altitude) = bad

 

Edited by novicebutdeadly

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1 hour ago, novicebutdeadly said:

-snip-

 

You will be amazed by what some russian planes are able to do in game. :wacko:

 

:rolleyes:

Edited by Willy__
miss type planes

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I would love to see some testing as to how much energy the yak loses with flaps deployed because it doesn't seem like a whole lot. Of course perception and reality can be very different so I'd love to see testing proving my perception wrong. I'm sure they must be losing some energy, but is it at the proper rate? That's the real question.

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It really was a problem some patches ago, you could see topics and topics and a big outcry on the forums. The way its setup right now is not a big problem, but it still happens to a lesser degree.

 

I think the problem lies more on the actuation itself, since the flaps on the yak (which was the biggest offender) wont go down unless you start to slowing down, IRL pilots would not deploy flaps in those kind of situation, afraid of hydraulic jams and getting the flaps stuck on down position, something you dont have modeled ingame, so people abuse it.

Edited by Willy__

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The "Yak Flap" flap was always controversial and debatable, but the Devs have pretty much nerfed the flap as much as you can. As it is, you cannot deploy them much above 250-275 kph. Remember the flaps still have to give enough lift and drag so you can land safely.

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12 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

The "Yak Flap" flap was always controversial and debatable, but the Devs have pretty much nerfed the flap as much as you can. As it is, you cannot deploy them much above 250-275 kph. Remember the flaps still have to give enough lift and drag so you can land safely.

They could always implement more variation with flaps to give it more of a risk vs reward. More damage states for the flaps would be nice, flaps getting jammed or damaged due to improper use/ high speed, asymmetrical flap deployment, etc.

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Flaps: 

- Change the wing profile 

- Which allow you to fly at lower speeds

- And turn in a tighter radius

 

And the Yak DO loose energy in tight turns (with or without flaps). 

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35 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Flaps: 

- Change the wing profile 

- Which allow you to fly at lower speeds

- And turn in a tighter radius

 

And the Yak DO loose energy in tight turns (with or without flaps). 


Has anyone got graphs that show turn time and speed of flaps versus no flaps of any of the aircraft that we use in il2 (past and present),

I remember the old graphs but I can't recall any showing with flaps as well as no flaps.

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On 9/24/2018 at 8:02 AM, novicebutdeadly said:


Has anyone got graphs that show turn time and speed of flaps versus no flaps of any of the aircraft that we use in il2 (past and present),

I remember the old graphs but I can't recall any showing with flaps as well as no flaps.

 
I don't, but I may do some testing and show the case.

If you're looking at HALF turn times (180 degree) then my experience is that flaps will result in shorter turn times when the initial speed is high but flaps still deploy (320-360km/h). However flaps are inefficient at turning and the sustained turn time will then suffer. I use my flaps either in short bursts mainly aimed at quickly reducing turn radius or to provide stability if the fight goes super slow (which is rare). In the 109 I sometimes fight with flaps @ 20 degrees if the fight goes slow and it catches Yaks off guard - not normal though.

 

Flaps are mainly for turn radius, and you have to be willing to take the energy loss associated with them. 

Also the nose down CoL change is real, flaps plus gear means you can get into an inverted spin in the La5, and inverted flat spin in the Yak1. If one horizontal stab is removed the La5 can also get into an inverted flat spin - unrecoverable without retracting gear & flaps.

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The key to turn fighting in the 109 is engine power and fuel load. 

Your engine must be at maximum combat power, just fractionally below emergency power.

Your fuel load must be below 50%, ideally 30% to 40% or you'll be too heavy to be competitive.

Also a force feedback stick helps because then you can hold the aircraft on the very edge of the stall. 

This really only matters with i-16s and Mig-3s because anything else is easy to keep up with. 

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so... that video in the opening post... i just learned to hate another person today

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On 9/20/2018 at 2:20 PM, EmerlistDavjack said:

I have been practicing offline in the 109 as my first plane, and I have a question about 109 flaps keybindings:

 

So there appears to be no lever Axis available for Flaps (for some reason), and you have to use buttons.  I use two on the base of my joystick.  It's just so slow?  Is there any way to speed up the flap response?  Cause trying to do it in a turn seems like I need to memorize a count for holding the button.  "One onethousand, two" and release?

This is why Bf109 flap deployment is so slow

 

 

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