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InProgress

Realism of zoom

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I did not make this topic to argue if it's cheating or not, to ban this from multiplayer or force people not to use it... Simply i like to play without it now, i like the fact that you don't shoot like sniper anymore and it looks and feels really nice when you strafe something and lots of hits are all over the ground instead of 2 hits at truck, boom, sniper elite. That's all :dash:

Edited by InProgress

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34 minutes ago, sealgaire said:

This whole discussion is why I love flying in VR.

I used vr once on some expo. Was playing some funny 3d platform game like mario world or something. It felt like being super drunk, waving back and forth, thought I would fall. After like 10min I was done and for another 10 I had weird time walking, dizzy and confused xD vr must not be for me. Really mess with your head.

Edited by InProgress

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5 minutes ago, InProgress said:

I used vr once on some expo. Was playing some funny 3d platform game like mario world or something. It felt like being super drunk, waving back and forth, thought I would fall. After like 10min I was done and for another 10 I had weird time walking, dizzy and confused xD vr must not be for me. Really mess with your head.

 

You had a bad demo. I've had sessions over 5 hours with no issues. I highly recommend you give it another shot in a better environment before condemning it completely. That beings said, it's not for everyone, some people just don't like it.

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Actually I had OC home a couple of weekends, And I felt the same flying Both in BOX and DCS, not drunk , but kind of out of focus, I was afraid of motion sickness , but that did not happened. For me more into the technical of flight and not so much in for the action, I found it unpleasant. But beautiful 

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12 hours ago, InProgress said:

I did not make this topic to argue if it's cheating or not, to ban this from multiplayer or force people not to use it... Simply i like to play without it now, i like the fact that you don't shoot like sniper anymore and it looks and feels really nice when you strafe something and lots of hits are all over the ground instead of 2 hits at truck, boom, sniper elite. That's all :dash:

 

Lol with this group of people that is what u will get !

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4 hours ago, InProgress said:

I used vr once on some expo. Was playing some funny 3d platform game like mario world or something. It felt like being super drunk, waving back and forth, thought I would fall. After like 10min I was done and for another 10 I had weird time walking, dizzy and confused xD vr must not be for me. Really mess with your head.

 

I’ve heard of this from other people. One friend who tried my headset told me he felt really sick even and almost threw up. He also flew in a 190 at tree top level and was not smooth on the stick at all. I probably should have had him try X plane in a Cessna.

 

The first time I loaded up VR I just flew the 110 for some touch and goes. Even that made me feel weird after I took it off. During the flight I was fine though. I’ve had my headset for a month now and never get sick anymore though.

Edited by sealgaire

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14 hours ago, Godspeed said:

Should be removed from Expert.

Can you read the smallest text on the gauges in your cockpit? Without zooming in? Because a real pilot can. That’s a measure of realistic that’s easier to grasp than seeing distant objects. The zoom feature is not just about field of view and size. It’s also about resolution. Since you can’t increase the number of pixels on your screen to match real vision, the only solution is to enlarge. Even a 4K screen isn’t as sharp as real eyesight. 

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7 hours ago, sealgaire said:

 

 

I’ve heard of this from other people. One friend who tried my headset told me he felt really sick even and almost threw up. He also flew in a 190 at tree top level and was not smooth on the stick at all. I probably should have had him try X plane in a Cessna.

 

The first time I loaded up VR I just flew the 110 for some touch and goes. Even that made me feel weird after I took it off. During the flight I was fine though. I’ve had my headset for a month now and never get sick anymore though.

 

I was watching a documentary about F1 drivers yesterday and when they are in the sim they are told to close their eyes if they spin to stop them self's feeling sick. It happens to the best of us lol.

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7 hours ago, AeroAce said:

 

I was watching a documentary about F1 drivers yesterday and when they are in the sim they are told to close their eyes if they spin to stop them self's feeling sick. It happens to the best of us lol.

This exact thing happens to me in the full motion airline simulator. When coming to a full stop there is a period right before we stop when the motion from the sim doesn't match up with what is seen outside and makes my stomach turn for that brief moment. I can only imagine how spinning in a F1 sim would feel 🤢

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17 hours ago, sealgaire said:

I’ve heard of this from other people. One friend who tried my headset told me he felt really sick even and almost threw up. He also flew in a 190 at tree top level and was not smooth on the stick at all. I probably should have had him try X plane in a Cessna.

 

Or pick a room scale game that doesn't have artificial locomotion for first timers - gives them time to adapt, rather than making them ill on the first experience. Once you start getting VR sickness, its not easy to shrug off.

 

I can play for hours in VR without even a hint of sickness regardless how intense the fight.

 

My first flight in a WW1 biplane in warthunder to see what VR in a plane was like (I only used the Tanks), back in early 2016 or my first flight in Elite Dangerous around the same time had me needing to take a break for a day feeling ill after just a few minutes of looping and spiraling around.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire

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Bunch [edited] LOL.

Tell em to put their big boy pants on and adapt to using it properly.

Heck I get motion sickness something awful when just riding in a car, but VR I got adjusted to in a couple of weeks and can do hours at a time now with no problem.

First thing I cut my teeth on for VR was the DCS Spit ( this was before IL-2 had VR support).

 

Undoubtedly there are a few that likely may not adapt, but for the most part it is really a non issue after a short amount of time.

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin

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9 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

 

Not a bad idea.

 

I understand the intention of a level playing field... But to restrict every one with the eyesight of a myopic rhinoceros seems a bit extreme when 'expert' servers aim to give a more realistic experience.. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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5 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

 

I understand the intention of a level playing field... But to restrict every one with the eyesight of a myopic rhinoceros seems a bit extreme when 'expert' servers aim to give a more realistic experience.. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

Eyesite zooming in and out is realistic?

Argue that the zoomed in state is more accurate all you want - but magnification changing back and forth = not realistic.

 

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4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Eyesite zooming in and out is realistic?

Argue that the zoomed in state is more accurate all you want - but magnification changing back and forth = not realistic.

 

 

Yes, more realistic.  You get realistic peripheral vision zoomed out and realistic ability to see detail zoomed in.  It’s not ideal, but it’s much more realistic than any current alternative.

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8 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yes, more realistic.  You get realistic peripheral vision zoomed out and realistic ability to see detail zoomed in.  It’s not ideal, but it’s much more realistic than any current alternative.

 

I get it.

The act of doing so (for me anyway) breaks immersion. I feel like Steve Austin.

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I get it.

The act of doing so (for me anyway) breaks immersion. I feel like Steve Austin.

 

When you find a viable alternative you will make millions.  In the meantime, we are stuck with zoom.  It’s still more realistic that any of the alternatives.

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55 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

When you find a viable alternative you will make millions.  In the meantime, we are stuck with zoom.  It’s still more realistic that any of the alternatives.

 

Or we could get close enough to ID or see other visual cues like real pilots had to do? Or rely on radio intel? I don't know how many pilots flew around with 10x binocs and whipped them out on a whim.

 

I feel like I can ID a distant plane a lot easier in VR due to the scale vs. a 24" 1080p monitor, it's just that relying on the zoom mod to see exactly what you are looking at is kinda required if you want to stay competitive. Then again, snap views would be easier that craning your neck every time you want to look behind you. 

 

Immersion vs. Realism. How far do we want to take it?

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16 minutes ago, Artunius said:

 

Or we could get close enough to ID or see other visual cues like real pilots had to do? Or rely on radio intel? I don't know how many pilots flew around with 10x binocs and whipped them out on a whim.

 

Full zoom gives you a realistic ability to ID aircraft.  It's not the same as binoculars.  That has been explained repeatedly.

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43 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Full zoom gives you a realistic ability to ID aircraft.  It's not the same as binoculars.  That has been explained repeatedly.

 

I was mostly talking about the 10x on the 3dmigoto mod. Looks like binoculars to me.

 

"Repeatedly".

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An ideal solution would be to calculate the minute of angle of the aircraft at x distance. Then use that for sizing the spotting contact and have that relative size stay the same regardless of zoom.

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On 8/27/2018 at 11:25 AM, pfrances said:

 

The owl-necks of Track IR are what keeps me out of multiplayer. Way too easy for those guys to check their 6.

 

Lol yeah single player is much more realistic when the AI can see through its plane... 

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2 hours ago, LizLemon said:

An ideal solution would be to calculate the minute of angle of the aircraft at x distance. Then use that for sizing the spotting contact and have that relative size stay the same regardless of zoom.

 

Not sure quite what you mean.  Calculate in game (as the sight ring can be used to do) or on your screen?   Size relative to what? 

 

If the program was capable of taking inputs for the player's screen size and viewing distance, (say you typed them in under graphics settings) it could determine what zoom level was equivalent in terms of angles to the RL pilot's experience - since this is simple trigonometry -  and set that as "normal" or perhaps as a defined zoom that could be assigned it's own button.

 

The trouble is that for most people this assigned "realistic" zoom would be unplayable except as a gunsight view as it would have a very restricted FOV.

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There are a few variables at work, but essentially 'zoomed-in' is close to RL scaling. So there's really no 'binoculars effect'.

It's the 'zooming-out' function that's provided so we can have some kind of peripheral vision, which at best is still only half of what it is in reality.

 

Ridiculous to suggest it should be banned in 'expert servers'.

Ones 'seeing' ability in-game is still poor compared to RL, so to call it cheating is a bit much.

 

As to tracking - I can check six in RL as quickly as I can with tracking so I'm not sure there's any real worries there. As has been hinted by others, I think having pre-programmed snap views is probably more of a cheat.

 

S!

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This thread is going nowhere.

 

Unless technology suddenly skyrocket so that 90 inches ultrawide supercurved monitors with 48000x24000 pixels resolution and NASA level computers to get decent framerate become the new affordable norm, or they come up with a VR headset that can emulate such a monstruous screen, nobody will get a display that is remotely close to what can be experienced in a real cockpit. I'm playing on a 40" 4K monitor, an armlength away from my eyes and rendering is still piss poor compared to when I'm sitting in my DR400, the real one.

 

You want zoom for compensate for technology still not up to the task ? use it

You don't wan't zoom because of the weird feel ? don't use it

You wan't VR for better immersion ? go for it

You want trackIR for looking around without sacrificing picture details ? buy it

 

All of the available solutions are workarounds to the the fact that we are not living in year 2050 and that technology is not up to the task of providing true, real life level experience.

Calling this or that "cheating" or "abusing" is BS, and "ban zoom from expert server" behavior is even more ridiculous.

 

Make your choice, choose your hardware to better suit your priorities about the flight experience you want, and live with the pros and cons of the still amazing but sadly limited 2018 technology.

But don't even try to impose your solution as the only suitable one.

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I kinda don't even think it should be caused zoom as that implies that you are magnifying what you would see IRL, which is not the case but I don't have a better word.

Edited by AeroAce

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Zoom is quite the correct word, simply means moving through a range of focal lengths. Doesn't imply direction.

Telephoto refers to zoomed-in, Wide Angle.. obviously.. being the zoomed-out end of the scale.

 

S!

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17 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Eyesite zooming in and out is realistic?

Argue that the zoomed in state is more accurate all you want - but magnification changing back and forth = not realistic.

 

Every flight sim and every sim type game has this feature. Since sims try to replicate real world distances and visibility. For example ARMA that simulates infantry engaging targets at realistic combat ranges which would otherwise be impossible to see on a PC screen. 

Changing your FOV on the fly or “zoom view” is a vital feature to make the game playable. 

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13 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Not sure quite what you mean.  Calculate in game (as the sight ring can be used to do) or on your screen?   Size relative to what? 

 

If the program was capable of taking inputs for the player's screen size and viewing distance, (say you typed them in under graphics settings) it could determine what zoom level was equivalent in terms of angles to the RL pilot's experience - since this is simple trigonometry -  and set that as "normal" or perhaps as a defined zoom that could be assigned it's own button.

 

The trouble is that for most people this assigned "realistic" zoom would be unplayable except as a gunsight view as it would have a very restricted FOV.

 

Yeah I should have explained things better.

 

One problem with zooming out or in too far is that it changes the apparent size of close and distant objects, making things appear to be further away or closer than they really are. Like this;

Focal_length.jpg

Focal_length.jpg

On a 35mm camera a 50mm lens gives approximately the same perspective as the human eye. This works out to a fov of almost 40 degrees and what should be used as a baseline since it is very close to what the apparent size of near and distance objects would be.

 

So for example a He111 seen from the side at a distance of 2km would have an angle of 0.46982 degrees. Now that figure is divided by 40 since this is the fov that is being used as a baseline, and this gives us a value of ~1.17%. This value is how large the contact should be as a percent of screen width, irrespective of resolution or zoom level. This is a bit of a cheat since the contacts would remain a constant size as zoom level is changed but this would be making the contact about the same size as what you would see in real life. It would also mean that one resolution doesnt have an advantage over any other since the contact size is divorced from resolution.

 

I think the game might be doing something in a similar vein to the above since the LOD3/4 models do some scaling that makes them a constant apparent size.

Edited by LizLemon
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4 hours ago, LizLemon said:

 

Yeah I should have explained things better.

 

One problem with zooming out or in too far is that it changes the apparent size of close and distant objects, making things appear to be further away or closer than they really are. Like this;

 

Focal_length.jpg

On a 35mm camera a 50mm lens gives approximately the same perspective as the human eye. This works out to a fov of almost 40 degrees and what should be used as a baseline since it is very close to what the apparent size of near and distance objects would be.

 

So for example a He111 seen from the side at a distance of 2km would have an angle of 0.46982 degrees. Now that figure is divided by 40 since this is the fov that is being used as a baseline, and this gives us a value of ~1.17%. This value is how large the contact should be as a percent of screen width, irrespective of resolution or zoom level. This is a bit of a cheat since the contacts would remain a constant size as zoom level is changed but this would be making the contact about the same size as what you would see in real life. It would also mean that one resolution doesnt have an advantage over any other since the contact size is divorced from resolution.

 

I think the game might be doing something in a similar vein to the above since the LOD3/4 models do some scaling that makes them a constant apparent size.

 

I think understand now: what you are saying is that when you "zoom" in the sense you use, you have moved the point of the "eye" relative to the objects by a fixed amount.  So you might halve the distance to the near object, making it double the angle, but only reduced the distance to the far object by 10%, reducing the angle by 10%, and hence changed the apparent relative size. 

 

If you move your default head position in the game this will happen just as you describe: objects in the cockpit will get significantly larger or smaller but the outside world will be almost unchanged.  But the "zoom" function in the game is not doing that: it is simply taking everything you see in an area of screen and magnifying it.  So, the size of aircraft relative to your gun sight is unchanged when you zoom.  Just as well or you could not use the gun sight to judge range.

 

You can check this by looking at the relationship of the illuminated gun sight reticle compared to the glass of the gunsight.  When you use zoom in game, the relative sizes of the two remain unchanged: the zoom is showing a different area of exactly the same picture.  Now use the keys to change the default head position back and forwards while in a given zoom: the absolute size of the reticle is unchanged, since it is portraying a certain angle of view, but the apparent size of the gun sight glass changes, just as in your photo examples. 

 

Jason has said that the game does not use scaling, and my own observation using the gunsight is the same. Very distant objects might appear to be not exactly in proportion on occasion, but I suspect this has as much to do with AA as anything else. 

Edited by unreasonable

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Danny. I'm going to give you a little advice. There's a force in the universe that makes things happen. All you have to do is get in touch with it. Stop thinking. Let things happen...and be...the bullet.

 

Just be the bullet...be the bullet...be the bullet. You're not being the bullet, Danny.

 

Ok, sorry. I'm not talking now...I've stopped talking...Not talking. Just be the bullet.

 

Where'd it go?

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On 8/29/2018 at 9:46 PM, InProgress said:

I used vr once on some expo. Was playing some funny 3d platform game like mario world or something. It felt like being super drunk, waving back and forth, thought I would fall. After like 10min I was done and for another 10 I had weird time walking, dizzy and confused xD vr must not be for me. Really mess with your head.

 

 

You need to have a proper VR and proper setup, expos are not the best places because VR is rather personal experience and needs time to get it right. Also playing games standing that are NOT designed for standing experience is sure way to get yourself seasick.

 

Good VR headset, powerful enough PC and good gaming chair + hotas setup is ultimate way to fly.  Galvanic vestibular stimulation for if you want to live dangerously. 

5 hours ago, LizLemon said:

 

 

One problem with zooming out or in too far is that it changes the apparent size of close and distant objects, making things appear to be further away or closer than they really are. L

 

 

VR solves this problem by adding stereo vision that improves size, distance and parallax cues by allot! 

 

You can sniper from 1km in LaGG-3 23mm lazer cannon... i have done it so many time to zoom climbing 109's its not funny, got called cheater once, too. 

 

You can literally walk your bullets to the target. One by one.

 

In low alpha lead aiming situations i usually take first ranging shots zoomed in and then do the corrective movement while giving it all, unzoomed. 

Unzoomed i have better situational awareness and can do high alpha deflection shooting better, assuming the target survives the first shots. But in calm situation VR zoom gives you outstanding feel for distance and good deflection angle. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy

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On 8/29/2018 at 1:46 PM, InProgress said:

I used vr once on some expo. Was playing some funny 3d platform game like mario world or something. It felt like being super drunk, waving back and forth, thought I would fall. After like 10min I was done and for another 10 I had weird time walking, dizzy and confused xD vr must not be for me. Really mess with your head.

 

I spend a lot of money on things that make me feel that way. That's a VR bonus!

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On 8/30/2018 at 7:48 PM, NETSCAPE said:

Not a bad idea.

 

On 8/31/2018 at 1:41 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

Eyesite zooming in and out is realistic?

Argue that the zoomed in state is more accurate all you want - but magnification changing back and forth = not realistic.

 

it's funny how you guys just don't WANT to understand... it's the only way to get around the technical limitations of our time. if you don't want to use zoom, than don't. People who want realistic ability to ID targets AND proper peripheral vision will keep using it. 

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I’m not a dolt - I get it.

That doesn’t mean zooming eyesight is realistic.

 

Now here is where someone points out that it’s the only solution again as if I’ve tried to refute that point. 

 

Go...

 

 

It breaks immersion for me personally - and yet I find myself using it now and then.

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