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Scottvdken

AI Constantly Turning

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I still hold out hope that the Devs will decide to spend some quality time with their brain challenged AI. I think the key to longevity is not tanks, WWI, Western Europe etc. I feel like those are just short term band aids. Unless it is designed and marketed from the ground up as online only, the AI has to be good or it weighs the whole thing down. The AI isn't bad and it does not stop me from having hours and hours of fun playing SP but I have to suspend what I see quite often. Picture a totally shot up mig chasing you home smoking his A$% off, oil pouring from the holed engine and the pilot just keeps coming. Its absurd and would not take that much work to fix just that 1 immersion killer. Stop the endless turn fights and give the AI enough smarts to climb or dive or do whatever his plane is good at. I dont need the thing to kill me at chess, just please give us something somewhat believable as a WW2 adversary.

 

With some serious upgrades to AI and quality comms (towers, mates, commands) the game would be flat out unstoppable.  

Edited by TheSNAFU
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Yes AI has a room for improvement even it's not so bad on ace level.

We can't expect it to behave like human, it's just a pile of "if" commands, i'm sure AI will get on schedule and improve over time....sim is in ongoing development.

 

Flak AI will also need improvemnts for the upcoming PTO so 20 flak guns don't focus on single aircraft instead they split and engage multiple targets.

 

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13 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

I still hold out hope that the Devs will decide to spend some quality time with their brain challenged AI. I think the key to longevity is not tanks, WWI, Western Europe etc. I feel like those are just short term band aids. Unless it is designed and marketed from the ground up as online only, the AI has to be good or it weighs the whole thing down. The AI isn't bad and it does not stop me from having hours and hours of fun playing SP but I have to suspend what I see quite often. Picture a totally shot up mig chasing you home smoking his A$% off, oil pouring from the holed engine and the pilot just keeps coming. Its absurd and would not take that much work to fix just that 1 immersion killer. Stop the endless turn fights and give the AI enough smarts to climb or dive or do whatever his plane is good at. I dont need the thing to kill me at chess, just please give us something somewhat believable as a WW2 adversary.

 

With some serious upgrades to AI and quality comms (towers, mates, commands) the game would be flat out unstoppable.  

 

 

This..exactly this. I take off with my SP buddies all good,the feeling of taking off and joining formation is incredible.

We then proceed to our mission again it's all good,we arrive at target area (bombers) and a lot of times no AI plane drops ordnance ..if I get whacked in either a fighter or bomber the opposition Ai often follows me all the way back over my lines,over my own airfield?? to shoot me down even if the opposition Ai is spewing oil,smoking just like TheSnafu has mentioned.

 

I can't tell the Devs how to go forward with their series it's their baby I understand that but..Good\poor A.i can make or break a sim in SP.

Id personally delay FC,TC and BOBP and get to work somehow on fixing some of the Ai issues.

I love this sim at times I recently purchased BOK and it's beautiful..but for as much as I love the maps,the "feeling" of flight the attention to detail the BOX series gives me..I then run into some absolutely stupid Ai decisions and I turn the sim off sometimes for a few days. The immersion up until that moment was outstanding,then it gets ruined by Ai issues in seconds,such a bloody shame for me personally.

 

I truly hope the Devs can work with someone to tackle some of the AI issues,I honestly believe that with such issues " fixed" this series would be like SNAFU mentioned..unstoppable.

Edited by Adger
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29 minutes ago, Adger said:

Id personally delay FC,TC and BOBP and get to work somehow on fixing some of the Ai issues.

 

 

It's not necessarily the same people, I doubt the texture artists can fix the AI for example. But I agree with sentiment, for me the biggest thing holding all of BoX back at the moment is the AI, and improvements here would greatly improve the whole series and all future titles.

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On 8/21/2018 at 11:25 AM, Karamazov said:

Developer diaries need to address issues like the AI and gameplay, communicate what is being discussed and investigated, not just show pretty pictures of someone's favourite aircraft, if they want to get all potential investment.

3

Although I understand the necessity of creating new aircrafts for money income, I am afraid of the decline of the IL-2 series if some serious improvements concerning AI won't be done...

New visuals, maps and aircrafts are great but the first WOW effect soon disappear and SP virtual pilot expects some reasonable career play and that is impossible without good AI...

As for me, I would prefer to sacrifice many visual effects and many new planes and even maps for better AI (including AI defense tactics, radio comms, wingmen, etc). IMHO developers should consider the effect the current state of AI has on the future of the whole IL-2 series.

Edited by Tapi
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Teach the AI to take snapshots at anythinf that appears in front of them within a certain distance, and to chase that target if possible. Would make hunting the Il-2s more dangerous, for a start.

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As I stated in another tread , I wish Devs 1c will try to contact "the" expert of A.I. routines that made the gem of BoB II sim game. He surely could give a significant improvement of A.I. into BoX. Hope dev will read this post.

 

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Yep BOB 2 with Buddeye's (not sure of the spelling) AI rework was the best I've ever seen. I've brought it up a number of times here. It Is very believable and actually surprised me at times. If the game wasn't so dated graphically I'd still be playing it. The campaign was like a war game within a flight sim, the comms were crazy good and the AI was outstanding. That game holds a special place in my heart. People ain't still playin it 20 years after original release for the visuals...

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2 hours ago, EAF_51_FOX said:

As I stated in another tread , I wish Devs 1c will try to contact "the" expert of A.I. routines that made the gem of BoB II sim game. He surely could give a significant improvement of A.I. into BoX. Hope dev will read this post.

 

 

I know that in your mind you're presenting some profound idea...some no-brainer, inexplicably overlooked but readily available resource that in their YEARS of work in this industry,  they couldn't possibly have thought of without your help...but give them some credit. They've been around a while.

Multiple scenarios that might prevent your idea from panning out were presented in the other thread.

 

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Someone who has worked on AI code on a previous game simply cannot just walk into the BOX series and do their magic. WM and POL from OBD are masters of working the AI but that's on MSCFS3 code..they know the code inside out. But I bet they wouldn't know where to start with BOX. It's totally different.

 

Saying that..I truly hope Jason can get a dedicated AI coder on board for this series. Gambit and Luke,you've probably put more hrs testing into this series than anybody. There must be times when the SP AI drives you mad lads. Box looks great,feels great and then the AI does something so incredibly stupid/ridiculous it just makes me personally switch off.

 

It could be the best looking,full of detail,excellent fm sim in the world but ..when the SP AI behaves sometimes the way it does it turns some SP flyers off, which then could possibly decrease revenue for the team ..who's going to purchase other BOX maps/planes if their unhappy with the current AI?

 

Anyway just my 2p,s worth guys all have a great day

Regards Adger

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23 minutes ago, Adger said:

when the SP AI behaves sometimes the way it does it turns some SP flyers off, which then could possibly decrease revenue for the team ..who's going to purchase other BOX maps/planes if their unhappy with the current AI?

 

I can verify your theory is correct at 1 occation minimum.

I am BoS only and stopped at that.

Had a blast initially with the new Career but soon enough the AI behaviour degraded the experience.

 

On the note about someone jumping right in writing magic AI code I'm not sure that's how it works. If the BOB2 guy came by he would write a design specification to how the AI should behave, not necessary do the code.

Then, if necessary, someone with the specific coding skills in the very product would implement the new design.

That's how programming has been done in my profession the last 20 years.

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I think im not going to buy new products until AI gets big improvements.

I have lot of content BOM, BOS, BOK & BOB just waiting to get full experience when AI is improved.

 

Ongoing career im on Stalingrad with Bf-109 G2 and i have scored 110 kills. (Iron man)

Less than 30 flights...

 

To be honest i feel that current AI is ruining my experience quite a bit.

Quick improvement until AI gets treatment is that i could press career difficulty to all ACE.

 

Current Moderate & Hard are both bad setting levels.

Braindead team mates or enemies (Pick your poison)

 

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Good post Adger.  I'm in a similar situation where I find that maps and planes are fine, but I've got enough of them now.  I'm really not in the market for more of them just for their own sake, but if there is some way the developers can sell me an improved singleplayer package I would be a ready customer for that.  It would almost certainly have a knock on effect and inspire me to buy all those biplanes, tanks and late war fighters.

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This is an issue I hope they fix. This very thing can be real game changer, I hope they focus on this. It was stated that work on AI hasn't finished so I hope it goes well!

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This topic is very intersting and has evolved a lot since the original question. Now the title could be decieving or hidind some good points expressed. Maybe Scottvdken could change the title of his topic to reflect the different aspects of the issue more and to make it more visible to the devs? Just a suggestion.

 

Anyway Scottvdken you deserve a big thanks for this thread: it is a great opportunity for us to share about something that is so important in a sim that it makes all the difference between fun and enthusiasm and what we have now (which is so promising that it is a pity that AI is left without further needed development). There is no doubt that this sim has the potential to become legendary (it really already is in many ways), but it won't quite reach this status completely until AI reaches the level that will make it as immersive and enjoyable as its predecessor. Just my humble opinion.

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5 minutes ago, Caudron431Rafale said:

There is no doubt that this sim has the potential to become legendary (it really already is in many ways), but it won't quite reach this status completely until AI reaches the level that will make it as immersive and enjoyable as its predecessor. 

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12 hours ago, Adger said:

Gambit and Luke,you've probably put more hrs testing into this series than anybody. There must be times when the SP AI drives you mad lads. Box looks great,feels great and then the AI does something so incredibly stupid/ridiculous it just makes me personally switch off.

 

Maybe start with 1 of the most obvious issues like stop AI from continuing when their planes are seriously (however defined) damaged. Just send  them home.

 

Then chose the next issue preferably based on user feedback. 

 

Just a thought on a possible approach that could be used to actually make progress. Im sure there other ideas which would be great. The hope is for progress and soon. 

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30 minutes ago, TheSNAFU said:

 

Maybe start with 1 of the most obvious issues like stop AI from continuing when their planes are seriously (however defined) damaged. Just send  them home.

 

Then chose the next issue preferably based on user feedback. 

 

Just a thought on a possible approach that could be used to actually make progress. Im sure there other ideas which would be great. The hope is for progress and soon. 

Literally just adding some type of damage limiter to the AI where it would break off the chase would increase the playability of the career mode ten fold.

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7 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

Literally just adding some type of damage limiter to the AI where it would break off the chase would increase the playability of the career mode ten fold.

 

I would like to see this also.

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8 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

Literally just adding some type of damage limiter to the AI where it would break off the chase would increase the playability of the career mode ten fold.

 

Itd certainly be a good start Jon,it's annoying to see a enemy AI aircraft spewing smoke/oil following you all the way back and still attacking you.

 

The career mode is a excellent addition ..ruined at times by woeful SP AI. It's such a shame because the majority of the time the BOX series is excellent in what it's trying to achieve. BOBP looks like it's going to be amazing,I love the plane set and map but..unfortunitely for me personally Il be holding off purchasing until hopefully the AI gets a good overhaul. And that's a shame, if the AI was "better" or more convincing in SP I'd have already pre purchased.

Edited by Adger

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2 minutes ago, Adger said:

The career mode is a excellent addition ..ruined at times by woeful SP AI.

 

I have to agree there.  The Career is an excellent start, and I really can't thank the devs enough.  Unfortunately it does tend to showcase the limitations of the current AI behaviour, speech and visual effects however.  Hopefully the importance of these aspects will eventually be recognised, and the game will then become the best singleplayer flight sim anyone has played.

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Yep, I agree, AI overhaul is very much needed. It has to catch up with all the other wonderful parts of the sim that got improved over time. I just wished we would get an official statement on this issue in a dev diary soon...

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I to will not be purchasing any

further battles or planes until an effort is made to address some of the glaring AI issues. And look that is no small stance. I've waited for a great West front sim forever and it won't be at all easy not to get the upcoming title ahead of or at release.  I'd like to see comms and radio traffic improved to but I will buy more stuff without the comms. It seems pretty clear from this thread and others sp  players, and there are a lot of us, want AI and comms addressed. Give us progress. It's been the elephant in the room for too long!

Edited by TheSNAFU

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I don't think there will be any significant work on AI in the foreseeable future.  If there was indeed going to be such an important improvement to the game, it would surely have been mentioned as one of the key selling points of the Bodenplatte expansion.

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3 minutes ago, Karamazov said:

I would love to have some official news on what is being considered/worked on relating to AI decision making (and the rest of what is on the thread), but it probably would be best communicated outside of a developer diary, a post of its own like the ' thoughts on the pacific delay'. Simply because the developer diaries are effectively PR/marketing (they show on the Steam product page), and I don't really expect them to mention the AI and SP limitations in what is effectively an advert for the game!

 

It is the existing customers (exampled in this thread) who want to know there is going to be progress, and most who care would surely lurk in the forum and therefore see an official thread regarding AI.

 

When there actually is something to announce (e.g. A new 'return home at maximum speed action triggered by x, y or z damage statuses'), that can then be put in the dd.

 

I don't think this is going to happen - sure maybe they will improve or correct some issues with the AI, but I have some serious doubts about publishing these reworkings.

They prefer to announce new stuff or enhancements - it sells much better. And that's disappointing to me, because the list of issues and errors is getting longer and longer

and we rarely get feedback of what has been fixed.

 

That's a pity because otherwise they do a very good job with wonderful products.

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I'm sure some folks would complain but I personally would pay $20.00 or so for an AI "add on". It would not be much different than buying the xx version of a 109. The improvements could be marketed so we know what we get again just like a new plane. If AI is important to most sp players as it is to me the add on could be a big seller. 

Edited by TheSNAFU
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1 hour ago, TheSNAFU said:

I'm sure some folks would complain but I personally would pay $20.00 or so for an AI "add on". It would not be much different than buying the xx version of a 109. The improvements could be marketed so we know what we get again just like a new plane. If AI is important to most sp players as it is to me the add on could be a big seller. 

 

I would not pay an additional $20 for something that should be included with the game and simply, unquestionably needs to be worked on.

 

This isn't DCS. I'm not going to spend $20 on core features, assets or otherwise.

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Updates to the AI should absolutely not be a paid add on, that's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard in a while. 

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Well, SP really isn’t like multiplayer, where you buy a few planes and get all the maps for free forever.  There’s quite a few specialist features that it would be fair to charge money for.  Some guys are in heaven right now, forever chasing the AI in circles while their wingman says “it’s close”.  Other people are in the market for something more.  If a paid AI/gameplay add on was the only way to help the devs break out of this hand to mouth cycle of ten planes and a map, I’d gladly pay for the privilege. 

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But how do you guys expect this to work out? Those who pay for it, geht the improved AI, while the others go on playing with  the old one? Doesn't make too much sense to me. It is not like paying for a new aircraft, those, who pay for it,can fly it,but a 'for all players improvement'. So there has to be an agreement of all players, that AI needs improvement, even if this would bring a delay for the next product and maybe make it cost some more bucks.

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Jason's clearly stated multiple times they do not have an AI programmer. So until they hire one nothing is going to get done in regards to the AI. Like I've also said the code that was built by the previous AI engineer could be complicated and require a complete rebuild as it would be easier than trying to decipher what he created. This all costs money, obviously. They've clearly chosen to develop new content to increase income hopefully to some time in the future fix the problems with the current build. I get everyone's frustrations I really do. But without some miracle happening and millions of people deciding to start buying all of il2s content they are going to continue struggling for cash which in turn means struggling to get to every single bug and problem that us on the forums have. The fact they've created what they have with as little as they have is already a miracle. People don't want to hear the reality of things though. These guys obviously care about the product or we would of watched it die a slow death a few years ago. 

 

What I am trying to say is give these guys a little bit of a break. The flight Sim community moves a little slower than other genres in gaming. We aren't dealing with a multi-billion dollar gaming conglomerate here. 

 

EDIT: Space ghost, not sure how you even read my comment since you reacted to it almost immediately after I posted it. Wasn't but 5 seconds after I posted it. Is there something I can help explain that might help clarify what I said? Not sure what you are confused about here. 

Edited by 15th_JonRedcorn
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And therein is the devs issue and why this is once again pointless. They don't have an AI programmer and that's probably because they can't pay for one. So those who want to complain about the AI and not be willing to pay a nominal fee on principal that it should have already been great can stick to your principals. And you can stick to the current AI. If you would pay 20.00 for a 10th model of an airplane it beats hell out of me why you wouldn't pay to upgrade the AI. I see a lot of players say I'm buying this battle or that plane not because they particularly want them but reportedly to support the developers. How isn't better AI at a fair price not supporting the devs. Which adds more value? And if some do and some don't it would be the players decision just like getting a new plane variant.improve the experience or don't. Your call.

 

Anyway whatever! no winners here...movin on. 

Edited by TheSNAFU
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What’s so good about this 3rd coming of sturmovik, is that it’s not the finished article,it’s ongoing. The devs know this and in time we will have a polished version,ai bots and all.

past flight sims you were lucky too get one small patch soon after release, 

once the game is released they take the money then that’s it,only 3rd party models,

( eg ETO and MAW in cfs3 )

so my point is the devs seem too have a lot passion, we need them to keep up the good work, anyone know off anything better let me know,it’s not perfect but hey it’s still far better than anything else out there

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36 minutes ago, meplanes1969 said:

What’s so good about this 3rd coming of sturmovik, is that it’s not the finished article,it’s ongoing. The devs know this and in time we will have a polished version,ai bots and all.

past flight sims you were lucky too get one small patch soon after release, 

once the game is released they take the money then that’s it,only 3rd party models,

( eg ETO and MAW in cfs3 )

so my point is the devs seem too have a lot passion, we need them to keep up the good work, anyone know off anything better let me know,it’s not perfect but hey it’s still far better than anything else out there

 

Some past flight sims had better AI imo though meplanes,and thats part of the topic here on this thread. I sincerely hope Jason and his team can get the Ai working to a happy standard that both themselves and us are happy with. Im certainly not here to complain about "everything" in the BOX series its an exceptional sim. It does a hell of a lot of things very well,i love this series and i just want it to be the pinnacle of both SP and MP simming.

 

"Anyone know of anything better" is that regarding Ai pal? if so i give you WOFF thats the AI standard for me personally,but OBD know the code inside out and they dont have MP to have to worry about,and the BOX series is on a much bigger scale, I understand that 1C\777 have probably got to hire a coder first before we see any AI changes if thats the case then im more than prepared to wait. This sim at times blows me away..i just want it to be better no harm wanting that is there?  :drinks:

 

 

2 minutes ago, LF_ManuV said:

AI work hasn't stopped. It was on their DDs. It will resume in the future.

 

 

I must of missed that part ManuV i saw the part regarding tank Ai?

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I have never played WOFF, I am not into ww1 planes so I can not compare on that score.i know the same company OMD have a ww2 project ( don’t know what happen to this , maybe it was put on the back burner )

i agree AI bots need fine tuning, it will come,we just need too wait on this

 

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2 minutes ago, meplanes1969 said:

 

i agree AI bots need fine tuning, it will come,we just need too wait on this

 

 

Which i am more than willing to do,BOX is a great series..fingers crossed the Ai gets the attention in time it deserves pal

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16 minutes ago, Adger said:

 

 

 

I must of missed that part ManuV i saw the part regarding tank Ai?

Not on this one but some time ago, it's an always evolving thing so I suspect when we are getting near the release of something and they have the time to do it, they will do more tuning onto it.

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3 minutes ago, Karamazov said:

 

But do they have someone on the staff who can do AI things. Word is that they don't and they have to make money to hire someone. In which case the AI/decisions is not evolving until they do so.

 

Wanting to make improvements is one thing, but actually having them occur is another.

In my book that means things are evolving, sorry.

The thing is that AI development is not going to be like it is now, so it will be a feature wich will continue to evolve. 

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