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Scottvdken

AI Constantly Turning

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I recently picked up IL2 again after having not played in over a year. I've played a couple German campaigns now, and the same weird behavior seems to persist. I'm not very good, but I prefer engine management on, so to help myself out I put the AI in my career to "easy" or "Medium", but as soon as i'm on their six the enemy AI banks into a tight turn and just stays there. They'll happily keep turning indefinitely if I let them. The stalemate is only broken either by me getting lucky with a blind leading shot, or breaking off myself and coming back around (essentially tricking them into doing something other than maintaining their turn). 

 

If I increase the difficulty level in SP, will that alleviate any of this behavior? I'm getting tired of repeating the same process constantly in every dogfight. There is no excitement whatsoever.

 

Another thing that bothers me is the AI has no fear. Was flying a soft column attack mission in a 109E and one lone Mig appears. Guess what he does? Makes a beeline for all six of us and gets shot down immediately. They do not give up in fights either. AI could have an engine bellowing out black smoke and fuel, but it's as if the pilot is oblivious. No attempt whatsoever to disengage and flee. Same result if I attempt to flee, they refuse to give up chasing me. We could be five miles into friendly territory, the AI looks like swiss cheese from the AA but still refuses to quit. All I have do is keep circling a friendly airfield until the AA takes care of him.

 

Are there any (even small) fixes for some of these issues? Or are we forced to wait for the fabled AI rework?

 

 

Edited by Scottvdken
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I know what you mean, the AI is pretty predictable, even on the highest setting. I'm not sure if they will improve it, but it does need improving.

 

If "excitement" is what you want, then no AI, no matter how good, will ever be a substitute to fighting real humans. Nothing will get your palms sweaty and heart pounding quite like trying to outwit and shoot down another plane you know is being piloted by a human! ;)

 

Maybe try flying a few sorties in Wings of Liberty or one of the Normal servers. Playing online can be quite daunting, but nothing feels more satisfying than getting that kill on a human player!

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Thanks, pretty much the answer I was expecting unfortunately. 

 

I play a decent amount of MP,  but I have little kids - very often I need to be in a SP environment in order to pause and take care of whatever the latest life-threatening emergency is.

 

To clarify though, in no way am I expecting the same excitement as fighting a real person, it would just be awesome to have some kind of variety other than a never-ending turn every single dogfight. 

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I've had ace level AI try to lazily scissor when I got too close to them. In general I find that the AI, if it thinks its plane can out-turn yours, will just turn fight. Fighting against 109s in Spitfires or 190s in Yaks the AI do try to climb away from you and get an altitude advantage, but if you're too close for that to be safe they will just give up and dip into a turn

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Record was 11 kills in one flight with Bf 110 E2.

If i remember right 5 of them was fighters and rest Pe-2.

 

Im not proud of this because playing career with Bad AI does not feel rewarding...

 

I was so exited about career first but then i started to see flaws in it mostly bad AI related things.

It affects the full experience negative way.

 

I hope they are going to fix it before bodenplatte.

I really dont want to see 262 turning around like idiot.

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14 minutes ago, danielprates said:

The AI behavior is the one thing il21946 was much superior at, comparing to this game. 

 

Not really.

 

The AI in 1946 definitely was worse. It only felt better on the first glance because the devs gave it a different flight model than the player had to deal with. The AI in 1946 had a much more forgiving flight model that allowed them to pull off manouvers the human player wouldn't be able to do in the very same situation.

 

In BoX the AI has to deal with the same complex flight model the player has to cope with. Which is more fair, but also more demanding to the AI, which seems to not be able to fully cope with it, yet.

 

The devs definitely decided to take the hard route for BoX, which is something we should really appreciate.

Edited by Fritz_X
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Ditto everything said here. AI sucks, but all that we have for us SP's now. Hoping like others that devs will make better soon.

BadBud

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2 hours ago, Fritz_X said:

In BoX the AI has to deal with the same complex flight model the player has to cope with. Which is more fair, but also more demanding to the AI, which seems to not be able to fully cope with it, yet.

That's true, but what you speak of is the flight AI, while what people miss, is the decision AI. Here we have different levels of the AI we are talking about, and where 1946 AI excelled, BoX AI sucks, and vice versa. It's little consolation for the player that the AI has to struggle with the same FM while at the same time the AI sees through clouds and obstacles. Moreover, BoX AI is somewhat autistic or a maverick, it doesn't really care orders, it simply does what he likes as if communication and tactics had never been improved ever since WWI. In short, the AI does know how to fly, but it lacks doctrinal discipline, i.e when to turn and when not to turn, when to attack and when to flee, etc, etc.

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I doubt that there will be any substantial improvement to AI developed in house.   My only hope would be for the task of AI behavior, speech and other singleplayer essentials to be contracted out to a trusted third party.   The same way that the tanks and WWI planes are being outsourced.  Then the package could be sold as a separate optional expansion.  They’d miss out on sales from the 400 or so MP players worldwide, but it would be an essential purchase to all but the most casual single players.  

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6 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I doubt that there will be any substantial improvement to AI developed in house.   My only hope would be for the task of AI behavior, speech and other singleplayer essentials to be contracted out to a trusted third party.   The same way that the tanks and WWI planes are being outsourced.  Then the package could be sold as a separate optional expansion.  They’d miss out on sales from the 400 or so MP players worldwide, but it would be an essential purchase to all but the most casual single players.  

400 or so? There's 1500 active players just in wings of liberty.

Edited by 15th_JonRedcorn

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5 hours ago, danielprates said:

The AI behavior is the one thing il21946 was much superior at, comparing to this game. 

Amen brother. If you make a flight sim, you need to simulate proper enemy dogfighting tactics.  1946 was WAY better.  

Jason, need to move this to the top of your To Do list before you give us more tanks or additional versions of planes we already have.

With love and respect,

Smink1701

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3 minutes ago, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

or just not worry about SP and focus more on MP

 

Right, because screw the rest of us. I forgot that since you're not interested in it, it's not that important. 

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30 minutes ago, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

or just not worry about SP and focus more on MP

 

I’d recommend you read through the thread a bit more...

 

9 hours ago, Scottvdken said:

Thanks, pretty much the answer I was expecting unfortunately. 

 

I play a decent amount of MP,  but I have little kids - very often I need to be in a SP environment in order to pause and take care of whatever the latest life-threatening emergency is.

 

Besides that, singleplayer has some advantages over MP. Less lone aircraft making suicidal attacks against enemy airbases, less pointless drama, less rape threats, historically accurate squadrons, bomber pilots are more likely to get an escort, etc.

Edited by PB_Cybermat47
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I was flying a Moscow campaign last night and I was lagging back behind my squadmates, fiddling with the map. A squad of five I-16's came up on my six... same altitude, and passed me. not even noticing me. Sometimes the AI can be real dirty and go terminator mode through the clouds, though.

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I have also seen AI half roll and dive for the deck once you are behind them (but I expect they have to have enough height to do that) and  then on occasion use scissors to try to make you overshoot. I-16s seem to be more varied in their behaviour than the MiGs.   Having said that, I wonder what you expect, especially when you are both low. He (She? It?) does not have a lot of options if you are behind except to keep turning: if you get too target fixated you might miss the other one that gets behind you.  

 

Completely agree about the damage issue though: in the vast majority of cases a plane with fuel or coolant leak or any engine damage should break off and head for home as soon as he gets a chance. 

 

IMHO the way to make Career interesting is to play on ironman mode.  We all know the AI is limited, but it has better SA than you do most of the time, and is a pretty good shot.  You only have to miss one approaching your blind spot or get too aggressive at the wrong time and place and it is all over.   

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18 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Completely agree about the damage issue though: in the vast majority of cases a plane with fuel or coolant leak or any engine damage should break off and head for home as soon as he gets a chance. 

 

I love when they chase you back to your airfield while billowing smoke. Easy target for AA... and then my own Flak36 got me while trying to shoot him lol. 

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48 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Having said that, I wonder what you expect, especially when you are both low. He (She? It?) does not have a lot of options if you are behind except to keep turning: if you get too target fixated you might miss the other one that gets behind you.  

 

 

Keep in mind  - I'm talking about the AI performing a never ending continuous turn in the same direction. Never attempting to adjust speed or altitude (the last time it happened, I believe we were around 500m minimum. I dropped down on him from 1000m, and it wasn't far) at all to evade me. I'm not complaining that an AI is truly turn-fighting me on the deck. 

 

I think I'm going to start a new campaign and bump the difficulty setting up to see how noticeably it changes. 

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37 minutes ago, Scottvdken said:

 

Keep in mind  - I'm talking about the AI performing a never ending continuous turn in the same direction. Never attempting to adjust speed or altitude (the last time it happened, I believe we were around 500m minimum. I dropped down on him from 1000m, and it wasn't far) at all to evade me. I'm not complaining that an AI is truly turn-fighting me on the deck. 

 

I think I'm going to start a new campaign and bump the difficulty setting up to see how noticeably it changes. 

 

Chasing MiG-3s in an F-2 is extremely frustrating though: if he did anything else but a fast sustained turn I would get a shot....   Anyway interested to see if the AI level makes much difference: I suspect it will make them better shots and have better SA but maybe not much in the way of extra moves, but please let me know.   If you are not already try Ironman: then it is not so much shooting down AI that becomes the problem but staying alive for a long time, which is not so easy. 

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If no money for AI developer - at least provide some basic framework for modders to use, so people can gradually improve it themselves as time goes on. The best results can be integrated back into the game.

 

I would be interested in working on AI in my free time. Ideally if the game would provide something like:

 

- States of all relevant objects (XYZ/Quaternion, name, etc)

- Heightmap around self (256x256 greyscale projection or so...)

- Ability to get ground height at X/Y coordinate on the map

- State of self - temperatures, current control state (axis, flaps, gears and so on...)

- Protocol to send control signal to the aircraft (even a simple UDP socket would work as we are local)

- Control over the main loop of the game - in other words the game is "paused" until I tell it that I want the next tick to be processed

 

 

 

I used to work with reinforcement learning before (I even made a post about it). And I was always curious about implementing something that would be able to fly and possibly even fight.

 

 

In basic terms most of the machine learning development is performed on a set up similar to this :

 

env = createGame()

allStates = env.resetGame()

while notDead:

   action = doAIstuff(allStates)

   allStates = env.step(action)

 

 

 

Understandably its a leap of faith for the developers to expect the community to do something "for them". So I doubt that this will ever happen.

 

 

 

Edited by JaffaCake

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As someone who really loves SP and coop, the poor quality of the AI ended up being something that has meant I've not flown much IL2 BoX of late. In particular as sniperton says the decision AI is terrible. There are lots of simple things that would greatly improve it, for example:

  • If the AI would not chase you all the way across the map, deep into your territory, even when they are badly damaged.
  • If a flight of enemy AI would not all immediately "lock on" to the nearest target, and all chase it forever, no matter what else is going on around them. 
  • If they would not crash into each other all trying to get a shot on the same target. I once single handedly defeated a whole squadron of them this way.
  • If they ever decided to let a target go, or switch to flying defensive because they are being shot up from behind.
  • If the AI would ever decide that it didn't actually want to fight, and that it was out numbered and should retreat.
  • If the AI would ever employ a tactic other than just circle turning after each other forever. Especially in planes that are bad at turn fighting.
  • If you could ever sneak up on the AI, or have them fail to detect you.
  • If the AI ever stalled, or lost control, or misjudged an opponent's position, velocity or angles.

The extreme tunnel vision of the AI is the worst aspect, and very frustratingly, it shouldn't even be that hard to improve it substantially.

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1 hour ago, Karamazov said:

Stuck at an impasse with this. The developers apparently* need money to pay for an AI person, and people will tell you to buy things on this promise, but it is not even a promise, just a hope.

 

Hey I've been buying and supporting the team's products since 2009 in the hope that a well crafted singleplayer experience will evolve.  Surely it must be just around the corner now.

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Anyone fighting IL2 in single player would be in for a shock if he tries the same in multiplayer, where the IL2 would just pull up in a vertical and spray your wings off with the 23mms...

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12 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

Anyone fighting IL2 in single player would be in for a shock if he tries the same in multiplayer, where the IL2 would just pull up in a vertical and spray your wings off with the 23mms...

 

I have shot down Il-2s in SP and in MP.  Beam attack on the cockpit-engine area, they all burn nicely. The rule is just the same: do not get in front of it.

 

Honestly, some MP guys have a totally inflated idea of the difference from SP. It took me about five minutes on my first MP session to get an air kill, after the vulchers had left a gap so that I could take off.  Creeping up underneath a pair of LW types in the dark while they yap away on teamspeak would be impossible in SP: oh how they screamed when the shells hit!  I am sure that the MP aces are very dangerous: but the majority of MP flyers are, in my experience, far less dangerous than a novice AI.

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5 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

I have shot down Il-2s in SP and in MP.  Beam attack on the cockpit-engine area, they all burn nicely. The rule is just the same: do not get in front of it.

 

Honestly, some MP guys have a totally inflated idea of the difference from SP. It took me about five minutes on my first MP session to get an air kill, after the vulchers had left a gap so that I could take off.  Creeping up underneath a pair of LW types in the dark while they yap away on teamspeak would be impossible in SP: oh how they screamed when the shells hit!  I am sure that the MP aces are very dangerous: but the majority of MP flyers are, in my experience, far less dangerous than a novice AI.

 

 

Fly less on WOL... If the pilot is drunk even AI would do better :)

 

I have been BnZd by 109s before, simply pushing the nose down tends to avoid the initial critical burst and gives you a little more energy for that spray after he passes. If you are flying solo and the 109 is not completely dull you won't survive unless you get a lucky hit. However if you have even just one fighter as a cover IL2 can live long enough for your fighter to come and bring down the 109.

Edited by JaffaCake

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Give them some time gang, Single Player has come a heck of a long way the last year and a half or so.

I mean they had a huge change in focus for the SP side of the game. Just look at all the man hours they must have put into the new Career system.

 

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10 minutes ago, dburne said:

Give them some time gang, Single Player has come a heck of a long way the last year and a half or so.

I mean they had a huge change in focus for the SP side of the game. Just look at all the man hours they must have put into the new Career system.

 

 

 

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We’re about where Starshoy’s Dgen was fifteen years ago, but at at least now we’re facing in the right direction.  

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Well, this is what I basically complain about in my post about frustration, AI can be really annoying, to me at least.

I remember testing the AI engine management, I flew up to 9.5K of altitude in a 190 A-3, against a Yak1. He didnt lose my 6 at any time, and his performance didnt decreased at all flying that high for a Yak1.

Same goes for diving, we all know 190 has probably the best dive in IL2, best energy retention, and best  structural hardness, yet I cant escape from a LaGG3 diving at ultra-sonic speeds. So all I do now,  is to make him get close to me, and then stalling suddenly to make him over-shot me, I know flying slow and stalling in a 190 is a really bad idea, but well, its just against AI. 

 

Thats why I just gave up in SP, and started practicing against human players in MP, which I consider makes you a better player and makes you learn more things, than flying against a scripted fake-behaviour UFO.

 

Edit: sorry for the ugly english skills, Im working on it, lol.

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262

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40 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Thats why I just gave up in SP, and started practicing against human players in MP, which I consider makes you a better player and makes you learn more things, than flying against a scripted fake-behaviour UFO.

 

 

It's just different, human players are very challenging and the level of skill is pretty high. You can definitely learn a lot by flying in MP. However, players don't always behave in an entirely realistic manner and there's some things you can only really do in SP/Coop. I used to play a lot of public server MP, but after a while I found it got a bit repetitive. I'm currently much more interested in playing scenarios, and those tend to be more an SP/Coop type affair. Coop in particular is my absolute favourite: flying a scenario as a team. But at the moment it's very limited by the AI.

Edited by Tomsk

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@ME-BFMasserME262

We have been repeatedly told by the developers that the AI does not use scripted "cheats" but uses the same FM that the player has: I have no reason to disbelieve that. None of what you describe is unreasonable if the AI is just capable of flying it's plane closer to the edge of its performance envelope with less error than you are. 

 

Most of the complaints from the "veterans" here are about the AI's decision making, not it's flying skill as such. 

Edited by unreasonable

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8 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

@ME-BFMasserME262

We have been repeatedly told by the developers that the AI does not use scripted "cheats" but uses the same FM that the player has: I have no reason to disbelieve that. None of what you describe is unreasonable if the AI is just capable of flying it's plane closer to the edge of its performance envelope with less error than you are. 

 

Most of the complaints from the "veterans" here are about the AI's decision making, not it's flying skill as such. 

Idk, maybe im too stupid to read sheets about planes performance, but I thought a Yak1 couldnt follow a 190 up to 9K of alttitude. Dont want to get banned or something for discussing FM, but well, was just sayin

 

Edit: or maybe im flying the 190 just in a disastrous way, which Im not sure is the case, since im not a PRO but not a noob neither

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262

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2 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

 

Most of the complaints from the "veterans" here are about the AI's decision making, not it's flying skill as such. 

 

 

Exactly. I probably did not make myself clear enough but that is what I was trying to say in the opening. There is little to no decision making happening once the AI has committed to a strategy it seems.

 

 

41 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

 

 

Thats why I just gave up in SP, and started practicing against human players in MP, which I consider makes you a better player and makes you learn more things, than flying against a scripted fake-behaviour UFO.

 

 

Please, I'm sure this was not your intention, but people need to stop beating others over the head with the MP club. I've already stated, I do play MP. However, very frequently I am not able to due to adult responsibilities and such. Would you rather I was on your MP server, fighting you, and as soon as you line up your shot I disconnect because my kid is setting fire to something? I doubt it. 

 

I get it, some of you are not interested in SP. No matter to me, that's great that you have a game mode you love so much, but please do not imply that somehow SP is inferior to MP just because it's not your cup of tea. 

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4 minutes ago, Scottvdken said:

 

 

Exactly. I probably did not make myself clear enough but that is what I was trying to say in the opening. There is little to no decision making happening once the AI has committed to a strategy it seems.

 

 

 

Please, I'm sure this was not your intention, but people need to stop beating others over the head with the MP club. I've already stated, I do play MP. However, very frequently I am not able to due to adult responsibilities and such. Would you rather I was on your MP server, fighting you, and as soon as you line up your shot I disconnect because my kid is setting fire to something? I doubt it. 

 

I get it, some of you are not interested in SP. No matter to me, that's great that you have a game mode you love so much, but please do not imply that somehow SP is inferior to MP just because it's not your cup of tea. 

No, I love SP, I like the feeling of "flying alone". But its not the same being rekt by a PRO in MP, than being rekt by a AI plane. But I better quit this topic, before the FM war starts, which I consider not perfect, but I dont critizice neither. 

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2 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

 But I better quit this topic, before the FM war starts, which I consider not perfect, but I dont critizice neither. 

 

Nobody is talking about the flight model except you.......? This topic is about AI decision-making in combat.

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One bad issue I notice is that AI will follow in a dive that they shouldn't to their detriment.  It was funny the 1st time in my lg1 E7 when I was running from a couple migs and watching them explode behind me but I notice this behavior alot now on both sides and it's an immersion breaking get out of jail free card. If you have a little altitude and a enemy on your 6 put the nose down hard and dont pull out until you absolutely have to and the AI does not react quick enough.

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3 minutes ago, Scottvdken said:

 

Nobody is talking about the flight model except you.......? This topic is about AI decision-making in combat.

Then all my talking is nonsense, so if you agree with me, I just gonna delete my posts

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For some reasons i find that AI actually got worse with time, at least in what concerns maneuvering the plane. This of course could well be related to poor decision making. Some times ago i reported AI crashing  because chosing to go for the shot in a diving way completely ignoring the deck. I sent tracks back then, but i guess they did not find the time to resolve the issue. It was one year ago:

 

 

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