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How to control an outlet oil or head cilinders temperature in FW190 A-5 or A-8 ?


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I have noticed FW190 have only inlet oil temperature in the cockpit which looks not to be interdependent with outlet oil temperature.

Many times i destroyed the engine by overheating oil or cillinder heads in FW190A5 with closed shutters in spite of having very low inlet oil temperature (~50C°) indicated in the cockpit.

You can have ~50C° temperature indicated and still easily overheat and destroy the engine in the middle of winter during straight flight if you close shutters too much.

 

In "Aircraft Flight and Technical Specifications and Operational Details" there is an information:

Quote

Oil rated temperature in engine intake: 60..70 °C

Oil maximum temperature in engine intake: 85 °C

Oil rated temperature in engine output: 105 °C

Oil maximum temperature in engine output: 120 °C

Cylinder head rated temperature: 180 °C

Cylinder head maximum temperature: 220 °C

 

But how i can control this temperatures without any indicator?

How FW190 pilots did that in real life?

Do they need to remember not to close the shutters below some point? Or they were waiting for RPM fluctuations when the engine is overheating? Why they didn't mount one additional instrument inside the cockpit to know output oil or cillinder heads temperature if it was so easy to overheat the engine? I think every other aircraft has this information on some gauge.

Edited by kramer
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Yogiflight

I think there is a reason, why german engineers only installed an oil inlet temperature gauge. My guess is, either IRL oil temperature was higher than in game, so the pilot had to open the flaps further, than we have to do for oil temperature, or ingame the cylinder head temperatures are modelled too high. But I am sure there is someone around, who knows more about it.

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-TBC-AeroAce

Well using my thinking cap, one would only need to know the inlet oil temp as that is what is important to the engine. Outlet oil temp would be very high and would not necessarily tell you anything about the operation of the engine. 

Edited by AeroAce
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CUJO_1970

Pilot does not control inlet for oil temp on the 801.

 

The inlet is part of the ring gap in the front of the cowling on BMW801, it is not adjustable in flight. Oil also has it's separate (annular) cooling radiator inside the cowling. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Pilot does not control inlet for oil temp on the 801.

 

That's right. I see the inlet temperature on indicator but i don't control it.

I control outlet/cylinders temperature but i don't have any indicator.

That is the paradox.

Edited by kramer
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Requiem
10 minutes ago, kramer said:

 

That's right. I see the inlet temperature on indicator but i don't control it.

I control outlet/cylinders temperature but i don't have any indicator.

That is the paradox.

My understanding is that by opening the cowls more you're allowing more airflow to help cool the outgoing oil which has removed heat from the engine and flowed outbound, so in essence you are actually controlling the inbound temperature of the oil as it comes back into the engine on its next flow through the engine to remove heat. If your inbound oil is too hot that means you're not cooling the outbound oil enough so you need to reduce power or open cowls more. This makes knowing your inbound oil temp more important so you can know how effective it will be at removing heat from the engjne.

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The idea is that you just fly by the books and have nothing to worry about. And the books say for flying in moderate conditions:

- on the ground: open

- in extended climbs: half open

- everything else: closed.

The rest was done by the engineers back home.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like this in game, and the Fw does overheat. Still, you don't get any gauges to monitor the now relevant temperatures. Best is to keep looking at the oil temperature, and make sure it stays below 85°C. If it goes higher, the best thing to control it is to fly faster. Opening the radiator will not directly influence the oil cooling, because it's a separate system. However, if the cylinders get cooler, eventually the oil will as well, but this is going to take time and only be mildly effective.

 

bla013.thumb.jpg.542d29c0ad804d893c85351cc0f9603d.jpg

Edited by JtD
Bit from Bedienungsvorschrift Fl Fw190A-1 bis A-8 dated February 1944 attached.
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Cunctator

I guess inlet oil temperature is essential to know for the pilot when warming up the engine. As others have said, the other temperatures should be of no worry when flying by the book.

 

Also I think closing the cowl flaps should actually decrease oil temperature, at least initially. With closed flaps the pressure inside the cowling will increase, forcing more air through the oil cooler, which is an alternative way for the airflow to escape.

BMW801air.gif

Edited by Cunctator
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2 hours ago, JtD said:

Best is to keep looking at the oil temperature, and make sure it stays below 85°C.

 

FW190A5, Moscow - winter, shutters closed, combat power, 6000m inlet temp drops gradually from 60 to 45-47 degrees, at the same time outlet oil and cilinders temperature grows gradually to the point of overheating without warning. (with inlet oil still 45-47 degrees)

Edited by kramer
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I have tuned on the technochat to perform this test. I know also without it because RPM/ATA start to fluctuate. Everyone can check by himself.

With closed shutters cylinders and outlet oil will boil very fast, even at 6000m and winter, without warning. With very cold inlet oil (the only temp gauge you have in 190)

I thought inlet and outlet oil would mix and inlet will take the tempereature so it would be impossible to overheat with 45-47 degrees inlet oil.

 

So how 190 pilots knew they were overheating the engine and how much they can close shutters if it could happen with very cold inlet oil? By experience? By more or less?

Edited by kramer
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OK, I checked this and can see what you're saying. The game is wrong. I'd recommend making a post in the bug report section.

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"E-mail #1. BMW-801 cowling is a standard NACA cowling and has nothing unique from the point of view such as aerodynamics flow inside the cowling.
And doesn't matter had it 3 time higher speed fan than propeller or the same.. From aerodynamics poit of view the airflow inside the NACA cowling are different for FW, P-47 or La-5 just in small details (different calculations of airflow) that are modelled.
And if "channels" of airflow are directed like in FW (or LA) this is really sometime worse working system of airflow than radial like on P-47, or JUMO radiator system on Ta, etc... So the real things are very relative. Sorry not time to explain you in more details.

E-mail #2. One more thing for you to think about unique things on FW....
Germans tried to copy the initial cowling on FW from Policarpov's cowling of his prewar design and that was published in 1936 in open public Russian sources. icon_smile.gif That work was unsuccessful for both design bureaus as you maybe know.
Some western videos in comments has very wrong technical description and such as films "Wings of Lufwaffe" about FW has alot of incorrect info that are coming from illiteracy of authors (enough to listen there what they said about "Komandegerate"....)

E-mail #3. Both FW and LA has very similar airflow inside the NACA cowling. And from aerodynamical point of view that thing is amost equal, so the drag changes on the same manner (not absolutelly the same, but very close icon_smile.gif).
Differences are in method of adjusting of the amount of airflow going acrross the engine (giils and cowl).
Both adjust it in the end of airflow past engine. Both had them controlled manually and usually doesn't need real input during flight in normal conditions of temperature, etc...(except to close the gills and "flaps" in the winter before the engine will have working temperature on the ground).
FW had a bit better result for external coefficient of aerodynamics than the La in the area of past engine airflow (output holes), but both methods damage the "laminar" airflow in that area by almost the same "method"
The aiflow from LA cowl is going over the flap and then meet the output airflow from the hole - result distorsion of airflow. In case of big speed of airflow from the hole this method would be better then on FW
The aiflow from FW cowl is going directly and meet directly the laminar airflow over fuselage and distort it. If the speed of this output flow is very high then the laminar aiflow may be damaged completely.... In this case it will be even worse then using covering flaps for special tunnel (like on La).

Hope you understand me and understand that in both cases the airflow iover the NACA cowl+fuselage distored by the output airflow from the NACA cowl." l."

Source https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/164168-Oleg-s-response-to-my-concerns-about-FW-190A-radiator-drag-Forums

 

Above Oleg's how he see the 190 cooling, maybe interesting

Edited by Livai
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Inlet is, you said, 45°C. Outlet have to be about 125°C to overheat.

Is it possible for inlet and outlet oil temperature to differ by 80°C?

Strange.

Edited by bies
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Yogiflight

I don't think it is the outlet oil, but the cylinder heads, that are overheating, because with closed outlet flaps, the missing airflow means not enough cooling.

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Blutaar
31 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't think it is the outlet oil, but the cylinder heads, that are overheating, because with closed outlet flaps, the missing airflow means not enough cooling.

 

That is also what i believe. I did some climb tests and i never get the oil overheat message even when oil is at about 85°C. Noramally you get an oil overheat warning when oil is to hot in every other plane. Or did i missrember here? Cant test it now to confirm what i say. But anyway, when oil is below 80°C, and that was often the case in my A8 climbtests, the engine still overheats and get damaged with all sorts of rpm and mp jumping. So it must be the cylinderhead temps in my opinion.

Edited by Ishtaru
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So we have two bugs - the cylinders overheat when they shouldn't and the oil temperature message comes up in the technochat.

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Blutaar
1 hour ago, JtD said:

So we have two bugs - the cylinders overheat when they shouldn't and the oil temperature message comes up in the technochat.

 

Sorry if i wasnt more clear and that caused confusion. I mean the oil temp warning dosent come up because it is not the oil which causes overheat. That is why i think its allways the cylinderheads which gets to hot. I should have add that the overheat message and thermometer icon appears normally. But of course it says engine overheat, not oil overheat.

Edited by Ishtaru
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I don't use technical chat but i turned it on to see the message and i have both oil overheat and engine overheat more or less at the same time. Gauge shows less than 50C.

Maybe cylinders overheat with shutters not being open enough and this causes oil overheat? But why inlet is still 50C?

And how do they know the shutters are open enough without cylinders temperature gauge?

In my opinion if there was no cylinders temp gauge in Fw 190's it was not needed.

 

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Yogiflight
1 hour ago, MicEzo said:

And how do they know the shutters are open enough without cylinders temperature gauge?

In my opinion if there was no cylinders temp gauge in Fw 190's it was not needed.

As JtD posted above

18 hours ago, JtD said:

The idea is that you just fly by the books and have nothing to worry about. And the books say for flying in moderate conditions:

- on the ground: open

- in extended climbs: half open

- everything else: closed.

The rest was done by the engineers back home.

So this should be the way it should work.

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Blutaar
5 hours ago, JtD said:

In my game it said "watch oil temperature" when the engine starts overheating, oil in being at <50°.

 

I dont know, seems like i messed something up but i could swear i never saw an oil overheat warning. And i flew since the patch every day in the FW190s lol. I will watch more carefully next time i fly. Sorry for the confusion.

 

20 hours ago, JtD said:

on the ground: open

- in extended climbs: half open

- everything else: closed.

 

Closed? You mean 0% cooling flaps? Wow. That would make the La5FNs cooling capabilitys more resonable for me. But it would mean that the FW is wrongly modelled and not the La5FN. That was my main complaint. That the La5FN gets super cool engine while FWs cooks its engine with comparable cooling flap settings and engine (aircooled radial). Hope it will be fixed soon. At least give us the same cooling parameters the A5 has and add some 10 or 12 degrees at boosted power on thop of that as a between solution.

Edited by Ishtaru
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Most aircraft have their cowl flaps shut in level flight and still run sufficiently cool. Yes, in game the La-5 is more typical in this regard than the what we see with the wrongly modelled Fw190A. The reason is that closed cowls do not mean zero airflow, I can't think of a single WW2 cowling design were closed really means closed.

 

On the P-47 the cowling had to be closed in flight in order to avoid turbulence, similar to the cowls on the A-20. Things like that occurred with several aircraft back then.

 

There's quite a bit about cooling trials on the Fw190 to be found on the wwiiperformance.org website. They tested a lot when they changed the gills to adjustable outlets. The problem was to get them shut in order to achieve the related performance benefits, not the cooling as such. Also in the VB126 test that's been posted a couple of times on the forums already you can see some cylinder temperature charts. With closed cowling flaps in level flight, and position 3 in climb. No overheating problem with 1.58/1.65ata, even less so with 1.42ata in level and 1.32ata in climbing flight.

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3./JG15_Kampf

With the blinds I totally date 582km / h on the deck with 1.58ATA. With the blinds open I have 25km / h less. map of autumn.
But with the blinds closed the engine overheats soon

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Look at this

 

Spoiler

Fw-190 A-5 and Fw-190 A-8 -> Cooling Flaps

german-luftwaffe-focke-wulf-fw190-fighte

 

 

Fw-190 A-3 -> Cooling Slits 

FW190-A3-13.jpg

 

 

 

 

The A-3 has everytime 100% outlet open and this doesn't slow down the plane. But if we do this with our A-5 and A-8 100% outlet slow down the plane - A feature or a bug?

Another thing the A-5 and A-8 are longer than the A-3 does this not improve the cooling if the entire engine assembly is moved more forward?

 

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PainGod85

The early Fw 190As had severe issues with overheating, and this was rectified in the A-4 model by introducing the cooling flaps.

 

The slots up to the A-3 just didn't allow for enough airflow to keep the engine cool at high power settings.

 

E: Also obviously the flaps opening would cause turbulence and slow your plane down. However, cooling should actually be sufficient at high speed for them to be closed.

Edited by PainGod85
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42 minutes ago, Livai said:

The A-3 has everytime 100% outlet open and this doesn't slow down the plane. But if we do this with our A-5 and A-8 100% outlet slow down the plane - A feature or a bug?

Another thing the A-5 and A-8 are longer than the A-3 does this not improve the cooling if the entire engine assembly is moved more forward?

 

No - they are different things - venting holes vs proper shutters. The former are always "flush". No matter the fuselage length the engine remains the most forward element. (at least in such configuration)

Edited by Ehret
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3./JG15_Kampf
3 hours ago, Livai said:

The A-3 has everytime 100% outlet open and this doesn't slow down the plane. But if we do this with our A-5 and A-8 100% outlet slow down the plane - A feature or a bug?

Another thing the A-5 and A-8 are longer than the A-3 does this not improve the cooling if the entire engine assembly is moved more forward?

So far as I know both the A5 and A8 with open outlets have similar speeds with A3

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About cooling with open/closed flaps, the Germans typically quantified if by measuring the pressure drop between a position in front of the engine, and behind of the engine. Where there is a pressure difference, there's also airflow. And drag.

 

In test number 3 with aircraft number 665, in climb, pressure drop at sea level

with open flaps was 360 mm water

with closed flaps was 250 mm water.

In level flight at sea level,

with open flaps was 720 mm water

with closed flaps was 600 mm water.

Simply put, most of the pressure difference remains in both cases, meaning that, even with closed flaps, most of the cooling remains.

 

It also means that in level flight, engine cooling drag was the single biggest drag source on the Fw190, even with closed flaps.

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QB.Atomic_359

So what im understanding here is 1. theres a bug in the game. And 2. Having issues keeping the engine cooled properly? Or not understanding where the temps need to be? 

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=RvE=Windmills

Not sure if I'm 100% following the conversation here, is there a 'confirmed' issue with the way the A8 currently overheats? Is there any particular reason why it seems so much harder to keep temps at acceptable levels compared to A5?

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QB.Atomic_359
1 hour ago, Windmills said:

Not sure if I'm 100% following the conversation here, is there a 'confirmed' issue with the way the A8 currently overheats? Is there any particular reason why it seems so much harder to keep temps at acceptable levels compared to A5?

I think there is both an issue and people are having a hard time reading temps.

I think of it this way. If you have the cowling all the way closed the air has nowhere to go, then in theory the inlet air should end up getting hotter due to the buildup of engine oil heat and overall the heat from the engine itself. But i noticed the 190 does get hot super fast.

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=RvE=Windmills
1 hour ago, Atomic_359 said:

I think there is both an issue and people are having a hard time reading temps.

I think of it this way. If you have the cowling all the way closed the air has nowhere to go, then in theory the inlet air should end up getting hotter due to the buildup of engine oil heat and overall the heat from the engine itself. But i noticed the 190 does get hot super fast.

 

Also seems to have trouble cooling down with open rads that is completely unlike A5 behaviour. You pretty much seem to need 50% cowl open if not more in combat/climb, while the A5 even 25% cowl at any time is excessive. I guess the engine produces somewhat more heat, but the difference in cooling necessity between the two is so huge that it almost seems a completely different plane/engine altogether.

Edited by Windmills
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Dr_Molem
2 hours ago, Atomic_359 said:

I think there is both an issue and people are having a hard time reading temps.

I think of it this way. If you have the cowling all the way closed the air has nowhere to go, then in theory the inlet air should end up getting hotter due to the buildup of engine oil heat and overall the heat from the engine itself. But i noticed the 190 does get hot super fast.

 

 

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CUJO_1970

There are problems with how the engine is currently modeled. It's been discussed in multiple threads.

 

A proper bug report will need to be submitted to the developers so they may review it. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I came to conclusion - i may be wrong here - the developers implemented new heating system with A8 and they left A5 and A3 with older system by now due to lack of time. It's only my opinion. 

That would explain such big temperature differences in cooling the same engine with the same device.

 

have a nice day

cheers

Edited by bies
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  • kramer changed the title to How to control an outlet oil or head cilinders temperature in FW190 A-5 or A-8 ?
  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/29/2018 at 12:32 AM, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

So far as I know both the A5 and A8 with open outlets have similar speeds with A3 

 

No, I made the test with open outlets and closed and the result are

 

Open Outlets

 

A-3 = 546 Km/h ( Maxed out fuel to max with 2x MG151/20 )

A-5 = 533 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-3 with 2x MG151/20 )

A-8 = 524 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-5 and A-3 but with 4x MG151/20 )

 

 

Closed Outlets

 

A-3 = 546 Km/h ( Maxed out fuel to max with 2x MG151/20 )

A-5 = 565 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-3 with 2x MG151/20 )

A-8 = 556 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-5 and A-3 but with 4x MG151/20 )

 

 

Fw - 190 A-3

 

674732481_Fw190A-3.thumb.jpg.6ec43480cbaad05cb9c60b11aea4e078.jpg

 

Fw - 190 A-5

 

1585371063_Fw190A-5.thumb.jpg.ebd3ff09f1034aff7985b709efa61626.jpg

 

Fw - 190 A-8

 

1070229310_Fw190A-8.thumb.jpg.6439aeb3a712d424a65e3135a3b57e75.jpg

 

 

Edited by Livai
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PainGod85
23 hours ago, Livai said:

 

No, I made the test with open outlets and closed and the result are

 

Open Outlets

 

A-3 = 546 Km/h ( Maxed out fuel to max with 2x MG151/20 )

A-5 = 533 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-3 with 2x MG151/20 )

A-8 = 524 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-5 and A-3 but with 4x MG151/20 )

 

 

Closed Outlets

 

A-3 = 546 Km/h ( Maxed out fuel to max with 2x MG151/20 )

A-5 = 565 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-3 with 2x MG151/20 )

A-8 = 556 Km/h ( Same fuel as A-5 and A-3 but with 4x MG151/20 )

 

 

Fw - 190 A-3

 

674732481_Fw190A-3.thumb.jpg.6ec43480cbaad05cb9c60b11aea4e078.jpg

 

Fw - 190 A-5

 

1585371063_Fw190A-5.thumb.jpg.ebd3ff09f1034aff7985b709efa61626.jpg

 

Fw - 190 A-8

 

1070229310_Fw190A-8.thumb.jpg.6439aeb3a712d424a65e3135a3b57e75.jpg

 

 

 

Did you mount the MG FFs on the A-5?

Because if you didn't, these results don't make sense.

Edited by PainGod85
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LeLv76_Erkki

A-8 even with similar fuel load is heavier, has the outer wing cannons and MG131s plus the direction finding antenna that all add both weight and drag. But it also runs considerably hotter. In A-3 and A-5 I get away running 30 % outlet gills most of the time, in A-8 I need to use at least 50 % and it still at times overheat even when not using full power and EN boost. I hope it gets hotfixed before Bodenplatte's release.

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