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Fokker DR1 forward stick to keep level..

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Is it realistic to that it needs such a  lot forward stick to keep level, the amount seems to be excessive. How do you deal with it? For me it is very hard to aim with forward stick.

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You can reduce the effect by throttling down a bit when cruising don't forget.

Although she still goes up-tiddly-up-up with throttle at minimum !

 

How bearable flying the Dr1 is without pre-flight elevator trim, may depend on joystick resistance.

I'm glad I no longer use the Warthog.

 

S!

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It is mostly uncomfortable with those short desktop joysticks. Pushing forward to keep level results in a very steep forward angle of the stick, impairing stick coordination. If you have a long stick, your fist is just more forward against the dash, but otherwise retains almost the same grip geometry.

 

In the end, there should be no way around a pre-set trim (no curves needed here) to make flying with short sticks tolerable. Else, there is no way around stick extensions. And that as a requirement for the game I think is a no-go.

 

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In Rise of flight we hade individual curves for each plane so one could fine tune the joystick settings so the plane can be flown straight forward when the stick is in neutral position. This way as it is in FC is unbearable. Im keepin my Glad pri full stick forward and its very inconvenient and uncomfortable. Why on eart we dont have curves for each plane so we can fly like normal ppl like in ROF? Its still a game not a wrestling course...

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1 hour ago, blackram said:

In Rise of flight we hade individual curves for each plane so one could fine tune the joystick settings so the plane can be flown straight forward when the stick is in neutral position. This way as it is in FC is unbearable. Im keepin my Glad pri full stick forward and its very inconvenient and uncomfortable. Why on eart we dont have curves for each plane so we can fly like normal ppl like in ROF? Its still a game not a wrestling course...

 

The subject of joystick Offsets have already been discussed at length in several threads.  Flying Circus is not Rise of Flight, it is a World War One component of a larger game primarily focused on World War 2 aircraft, most of which have trim tabs or moveable stabilizers.  Because of the way things are set up in IL-2, allowing for Offset controls to accomodate all the ex-RoF players who want it, it would probably apply for World War 2 aircraft as well, and I sure hope that doesn't happen.  All I can say is that it would sure dissapoint me to see "fake trim" introduced into the World War 2 line of aircraft!

 

So, having to hold the stick forward is a little tiring or annoying.  Well, that's realistic.  One of the guys who owns a replica DR-1 has stated that the forward pressure required for the FC DR-1 is a little bit excessive compared to the real thing, but that this is probably due to the angle of incidence of the stabilizer that was modelled.  So if that is the issue, then hopefully that can be addressed at some point, rather than providing something like offsets to negate it.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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49 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

  All I can say is that it would sure disappoint me to see "fake trim" introduced into the World War 2 line of aircraft!
 

 

All that would be needed is for whatever elevator trim controls already exist for the WW2 planes to have an effect on the WW1 planes, some of which had this facility and for those that did not, it could be regarded as a simulation of the several unofficial fixed or variable trimming methods known to have been devised and used. No fakery involved.

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18 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

All that would be needed is for whatever elevator trim controls already exist for the WW2 planes to have an effect on the WW1 planes, some of which had this facility and for those that did not, it could be regarded as a simulation of the several unofficial fixed or variable trimming methods known to have been devised and used. No fakery involved.

 

No fakery?  That's even more fake than the previously proposed RoF-style joystick offsets!

 

If a real aircraft flew tail heavy, then I simply don't see what the big deal is with allowing a simulation to be a simulation and requiring the user hold the stick forward...

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45 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

No fakery?  That's even more fake than the previously proposed RoF-style joystick offsets!

 

If a real aircraft flew tail heavy, then I simply don't see what the big deal is with allowing a simulation to be a simulation and requiring the user hold the stick forward...

 

Either you cannot or don't want to understand, dictating that this is the part where the discussion needs to:

 

A. Move to another environment

B. Be abandoned un-concluded, meaningless and misleading.

C. Get shut down.

 

Please select from above.

 

 

 

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Given that the lack of trim can be corrected through external software and/or hardware, suggestions that adding such a facility in-game would be 'unrealistic' is moot. If the developers want to add it, they can: there seems to be a demand for it. If the developers chose not to add it, those who want it can make their own arrangements, and those that prefer an arbitrary 'realism' that ignores all the other unrealistic features of 'flying' in front of a computer screen can do so. 

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Nobody isasking trim keys for FC. Just so we can fine tune the joystick curves for default position. I cant fly straight in ROF either when the stick is in neutral position. But in FC its ridiculous I need to go full forward on pitch with my joystick to be able to fly straight.

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1 hour ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Either you cannot or don't want to understand, dictating that this is the part where the discussion needs to:

 

A. Move to another environment

B. Be abandoned un-concluded, meaningless and misleading.

C. Get shut down.

 

Please select from above.

 

 

 

 

You wrote the following in the English language: "All that would be needed is for whatever elevator trim controls already exist for the WW2 planes to have an effect on the WW1 planes, some of which had this facility and for those that did not, it could be regarded as a simulation of the several unofficial fixed or variable trimming methods known to have been devised and used. No fakery involved. "

 

In other words, you are asking for real-time trim controls to be provided for World War One aircraft that didn't actually have them.  And that is the very definition of "fakery."  If there is a failure in understanding of what the above is saying, it is not mine.  If you happen to not speak English, and are using a translator program, please try to find a different one, because my interpretation of the words you have written is correct; so if that isn't what you meant to convey, there is obviously an error in translation. 

Edited by SeaSerpent
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3 hours ago, blackram said:

Nobody isasking trim keys for FC. Just so we can fine tune the joystick curves for default position. I cant fly straight in ROF either when the stick is in neutral position. But in FC its ridiculous I need to go full forward on pitch with my joystick to be able to fly straight.

 

Personally I do not mind how people trim their sticks, since there are ways the most determined people can find to do it why not make it easy for everyone. But the current stick pressure of the FC Dr.1 is not ridiculous: it may be inconvenient but there are good reasons for thinking it is probably about right.   I know Chill says his is less, and the FC interpretation may not be exact: but then again Chill does not have to cruise for 2 hours at 5km twice a day.

 

The problem is that people expect to be able to trim out stick forces while flying at full speed at low altitude. Think about it: in a plane without trimmers, if fast SL flight required no forwards stick, at altitude you would need constant stick back even at full speed, and even more at cruise settings. WW1 pilots could expect to have patrols lasting two hours: partly a long climb, at high power and nose high, partly a descent at low rpm, but mostly cruising at reduced throttle at high altitude. In none of these conditions does the current Dr.1 stick pressure cause any problems.

 

The degree of forwards pressure required is a function of speed and air density.  If you take a Dr.1 up to 5km you need very little forwards pressure even with the throttle fully open: which it would not be if you were in a patrol with other aircraft.  You can fly hands off level(ish) at about 4km at 1,000 rpm. (Just finger tips to prevent roll).

 

 

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4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

The degree of forwards pressure required is a function of speed and air density.  If you take a Dr.1 up to 5km you need very little forwards pressure even with the throttle fully open: which it would not be if you were in a patrol with other aircraft.  You can fly hands off level(ish) at about 4km at 1,000 rpm. (Just finger tips to prevent roll).

 

This. In computer games, „air combat“ comes mostly down to (pun intended) chasing each other around trees and houses. (I don‘t know how many times I fell victim to Verduns cathedral, too many times to keep counting.) In reality back then, they were flying mostly near the aircrafts max. ceiling. Up there, freezing and suffering from hypoxia, the last thing you want is having to pull back constantly, else your aircraft might enter what may well be a terminal dive.

 

It is also of note that the anemometer in the Dr.I doesn‘t show IAS (as in any other WW2 aircraft) but something more like TAS. IAS would show you how fast you are in relation to lift and pitch up trim.

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The word "fakery" could very easily replace the word "simulator".. so we're all into "Combat Flight Fakery".

 

I would suggest that those complaining most about the forward stick pressure are the ones with heavily sprung sticks, I know I wouldn't like to fly Dr1 'nude' if I still had the warthog.

But to those people I repeat.. "You can reduce the effect by throttling down a bit when cruising.."

 

The Cynic is right, allowing elevator trim would solve people's problems, and if it could be limited to adjustment on the ground it would be in line with reality as far as I know.

If that couldn't be limited, no big deal. We have far more scope for adjustment in RoF, and I don't see how accessing an elevator trim would be any great advantage to anyone over anyone else. It's not going to make you a better pilot.

 

S!

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53 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

The word "fakery" could very easily replace the word "simulator".. so we're all into "Combat Flight Fakery".

 

I would suggest that those complaining most about the forward stick pressure are the ones with heavily sprung sticks, I know I wouldn't like to fly Dr1 'nude' if I still had the warthog.

But to those people I repeat.. "You can reduce the effect by throttling down a bit when cruising.."

 

The Cynic is right, allowing elevator trim would solve people's problems, and if it could be limited to adjustment on the ground it would be in line with reality as far as I know.

If that couldn't be limited, no big deal. We have far more scope for adjustment in RoF, and I don't see how accessing an elevator trim would be any great advantage to anyone over anyone else. It's not going to make you a better pilot.

 

S!

 

In WW2 some of the aircraft had fixed tabs that could only be adjusted on the ground.  If you want to make a case for modelling the ground rigging that could be achieved on an aircraft-by-aircraft basis in WW1 aircraft...I'm not opposed to that, but it obviously it isn't quite the same as asking for the generic joystick offsets for all planes that some people miss from RoF.  I'm glad that's gone from IL-2.  I think the earlier suggestion by Cynic_AI to use existing IL-2 trim controls for aircraft that didn't have trim controls strikes me as extraordinarily unrealistic.

 

I know several people, who incidentally had Warthog joysticks, who flew RoF all the time without ever touching the joystick offsets.  They flew the aircraft as they were.  I can see how if you have a big Warthog joystick mounted too high (like on your desktop) that always having to provide forward pressure would start to hurt your wrist after a while.  That's an ergonomic problem, not a Flying Circus or IL-2 problem.  If that's the case, then people should use something like a CH Fighterstick or just about anything else that doesn't have anywhere near the spring tension, or else mount their joystick in such a way that it is comfortable and convenient.

 

 

 

Edited by SeaSerpent
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I have a Warthog... I also flew all of RoF's aeroplanes without playing around with the stick settings.

I'm doing the same with FC's Fdr1... not a problem.

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Dr.1 pitching up is slightly exaggerated - this is a fact, maybe  FM engineer will get some time from producer to fix it. But as we know there are lots of work going on. I'm fine with it, Dr.1 FM is not broken - could be just little better in future just that...

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Mamybe I wasnt clear. Give me an option to fine tune the JOYSTICK curves for pitch. So with neutral position of my joysticj I can fly straight. But not completely straight. Im still in the need to use joystick ofcourse. And pedals! But its not fun when one is using joystick with metal gimbals and hard springs and he needs to apply FULL FORWARD stick all the time just to fly straight. Trimming while flying isnt what Im asking for. BTW Se5a had some kind of trim option.

Reducing speed doesnt help much btw. With that said when Im flying Spad I barely need to touch my stick to fly straight. Is that a simualtor you want. Two planes two super exaggerated in two directions.

Edited by blackram

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39 minutes ago, blackram said:

Mamybe I wasnt clear. Give me an option to fine tune the JOYSTICK curves for pitch. So with neutral position of my joysticj I can fly straight. But not completely straight. Im still in the need to use joystick ofcourse. And pedals! But its not fun when one is using joystick with metal gimbals and hard springs and he needs to apply FULL FORWARD stick all the time just to fly straight. Trimming while flying isnt what Im asking for. BTW Se5a had some kind of trim option.

Reducing speed doesnt help much btw. With that said when Im flying Spad I barely need to touch my stick to fly straight. Is that a simualtor you want. Two planes two super exaggerated in two directions.

 

No, you were clear.  You are are asking for what we are referring to as Joystick Input Offsets, that are found in RoF, but not in Il-2.  However, as Tomcat The Tester said, the forward pressure required seems to be a little exagerated, but it isn't too far off from the real thing.  You never said what kind of joystick you have, but I strongly urge you to consider how your joystick is mounted, because holding the stick forward shouldn't be so uncomfortable.   I used to use a Warthog joystick mounted on top of the desk and it really fatigued my whole lower arm, but then I mounted it differently and honestly, holding the stick forward isn't that big a deal.

 

And Yes, the SE-5 along with several others, did have a moveable stabilizer, controlled by the pilot, and I'm sure that will be modelled and included, just as it was in RoF.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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49 minutes ago, blackram said:

FULL FORWARD stick all the time just to fly straight.

 

How do you dive then? Are you sure the stick is calibrated and functioning properly? It could be a bug.

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7 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Dr.1 pitching up is slightly exaggerated - this is a fact, maybe  FM engineer will get some time from producer to fix it. But as we know there are lots of work going on. I'm fine with it, Dr.1 FM is not broken - could be just little better in future just that...

 

Are you sure?  With the current configuration I get hands off level flight at 1100rpm - just a fraction below full power - at about 5.7km altitude.  You would not want this to be below 5km or in SP you are going to be flying for long periods requiring back pressure just to maintain altitude, and cruising in formation gets difficult (and uneconomical) if you have to fly at full power. 

 

This fixed trim does make problems for the pilot if he has to alternate between high and low altitude operations - I wonder, for instance, if RFC Camels had their rigging changed when it was decided that they would be used primarily in the ground attack role at about the time of Cambrai?  Just finished Lee's "No Parachute" (terrific book for FC lovers) who went through this transition, but he does not mention any such changes.

 

5 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

How do you dive then? Are you sure the stick is calibrated and functioning properly? It could be a bug.

 

You dive with a half roll - or a quarter roll using the rudder. No one should try to dive by forcing the nose straight down.  You descend slowly by throttling back.  

 

A possible solution to this issue would be to have the rigging configuration as a modification selected pre-mission, (like bombs or Aldis). Probably just need default as now plus one option for low level work.

 

 

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2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

You dive with a half roll - or a quarter roll using the rudder.

 

Sorry, but it makes no sense. Does Chill have to resort to a roll to descent? I would be surprised, but what do I know....

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26 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Sorry, but it makes no sense. Does Chill have to resort to a roll to descent? I would be surprised, but what do I know....

 

There is a difference between diving and descending. 

 

You descend by reducing power - once you have done that you can push the nose down further, although this may unnecessary, depending on how fast you wish to descend and how much you reduce power.


The best way to dive is by first getting your lift line pointing sideways or down and then pointing your nose where you want to go.  

 

Diving by forcing the nose down with the lift line still pointing up is undesirable, both for the negative gs which the engine and fuel system tends not to like, quite apart from the pilot, but also because it is much slower.  It is, however, perfectly doable in the FC Dr.1, since level flight at full speed at SL requires nowhere near full stick forwards: about 1/3 of the forwards travel in my game, and I can see no reason why blackram's would be any different unless his stick is defective, since I have normal calibration and no software functions altering my stick's settings.  

 

There will be a theoretical speed that you reach when you dive such that you cannot hold the nose down in an plane with no trim, but I cannot find it in the Dr.1 since I can dive vertically until the anemometer  is off the scale, at about which point your engine dies from over-revs even with the throttle cut.

 

 

 

  

 

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49 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

There is a difference between diving and descending. 

 

You know what I meant, and I first said "how do you dive then!". So I'm not so sure why the controversy. Does Chill have to 'cheat' the plane to dive or not? In fact he would not be diving, but sort of like side diving it.

 

I don't have a Dr.1, but I find it to be a bit ludicrous. But like I said, what do I know? Maybe he has to kind of side roll / dive it.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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So there you have it. Chill mentioned:

 

Quote

The Dr1 horizontal tail has a +4.7 (airplane nose down) degree incidence built into the design.  In flight, it results in a slight deflection of the elevator to push the nose down.  I will attach some pictures of a Dr1 that was built without the 4.7 degree incidence (It should have been built with 4.7, but I think it is about half of that).  I talked to the guy who flew it, and he said he couldn't dive more than about 150 mph or it would start pitching up even with full forward stick input! 

 

So even in a Dr.1 without the 4.7 degree incidence (that was built into the design) you can dive up until 150mph. In other words, a historical correct Dr.1 can certainly, without a doubt, dive with forward stick pressure.

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49 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

So there you have it. Chill mentioned:

 

 

So even in a Dr.1 without the 4.7 degree incidence (that was built into the design) you can dive up until 150mph. In other words, a historical correct Dr.1 can certainly, without a doubt, dive with forward stick pressure.

 

And so can the FC Dr1! Have you not even tried it?  Do you even own FC?   As I said - after checking the facts - it is trivially easy to bunt the FC Dr1 into a vertical dive starting at full speed and low altitude.

 

This is why is suspect blackram of hyperbole  - what is says is blatantly untrue about my game and stick.  So before crapping on the FC FM why not just go and check the facts for yourself?

 

TBH I am disappointed in you SeaW0lf - I know that you put a lot of time into checking RoF performance measures: if someone makes a controversial statement about the  FC FM at least check it.   You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

edit: the next person who posts this utter nonsense about the FC Dr.1 without documented backup will be reported for violating forum rule 18.  

 

 

Edited by unreasonable

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12 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

How do you dive then? Are you sure the stick is calibrated and functioning properly? It could be a bug.

 

Im diving rarely with full stick forward. And to fly forward I need constantly apply full forward stick. 

Listen, in worst case I will just avoid rotary planes and thats it. Its sad but its what it is. How on earth we are getting any reality with this need of  constant stick forward?

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29 minutes ago, blackram said:

 

Im diving rarely with full stick forward. And to fly forward I need constantly apply full forward stick. 

Listen, in worst case I will just avoid rotary planes and thats it. Its sad but its what it is. How on earth we are getting any reality with this need of  constant stick forward?

 

Reported.


I am afraid I need to see video or track proof of this or I simply do not believe you.  SL full speed takes no more than 1/3 of forwards stick in my game. Anyone else who has FC can verify this with about 3 minutes of effort.  It is entirely realistic that a plane without trim should need some forwards pressure at low altitude if it is to be able to cruise at 5km for long periods.  If you do not understand that, that is your problem, not the game's.

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31 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

Reported.


I am afraid I need to see video or track proof of this or I simply do not believe you.  SL full speed takes no more than 1/3 of forwards stick in my game. Anyone else who has FC can verify this with about 3 minutes of effort.  It is entirely realistic that a plane without trim should need some forwards pressure at low altitude if it is to be able to cruise at 5km for long periods.  If you do not understand that, that is your problem, not the game's.

 I need about 40% forward push to keep it level. With full forward, it half loops outwarduntil you can hold it on the back, speed up to ~250 km/h. It tettles in trim at around 95 km/h, depending on fuel.

 

The Dr.I in FC is really nice, and it really feels spot on. The first Dr.I that i like to fly in ANY sim.

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1 hour ago, blackram said:

 

Im diving rarely with full stick forward. And to fly forward I need constantly apply full forward stick. 

Listen, in worst case I will just avoid rotary planes and thats it. Its sad but its what it is. How on earth we are getting any reality with this need of  constant stick forward?

 

Have you tried using the throttle more ?

In RoF I think most pilots get too comfortable with the 'lawn mower' approach of switching on and whizzing around at full throttle all the time.

Perhaps lack of trim / curves will encourage better and more realistic flying techniques ?

 

Crap that reminds me I have to mow the lawn this morning.. before I get back to the painting..

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3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

And so can the FC Dr1! Have you not even tried it?  Do you even own FC?   As I said - after checking the facts - it is trivially easy to bunt the FC Dr1 into a vertical dive starting at full speed and low altitude.

 

This is why is suspect blackram of hyperbole  - what is says is blatantly untrue about my game and stick.  So before crapping on the FC FM why not just go and check the facts for yourself?

 

TBH I am disappointed in you SeaW0lf - I know that you put a lot of time into checking RoF performance measures: if someone makes a controversial statement about the  FC FM at least check it.   You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

edit: the next person who posts this utter nonsense about the FC Dr.1 without documented backup will be reported for violating forum rule 18.  

 

 

 

You are making no sense at all.  I said: How do you dive then? Are you sure the stick is calibrated and functioning properly? It could be a bug. And you questioned my question answering: You dive with a half roll - or a quarter roll using the rudder.

 

So you were implying that his stick was right. You are the one going adrift here.

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I implied nothing of the kind, but since I tire of dealing with misinformation and obtuseness I am putting both you and blackram on my ignore list for a week or so.

 

 

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Which comes first, full stick forward or terminal velocity when flying at 10,0000 ft  or lower ?

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Terminal velocity - although I do not know what it is since the anemometer is at the stop.   You can bunt to dive vertically - the prop will stop fairly soon. There is then enough forwards elevator authority left over to pull out of the dive by pushing the nose forwards until you are fully inverted and then rolling out.

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11 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Are you sure?  With the current configuration I get hands off level flight at 1100rpm - just a fraction below full power - at about 5.7km altitude.  You would not want this to be below 5km or in SP you are going to be flying for long periods requiring back pressure just to maintain altitude, and cruising in formation gets difficult (and uneconomical) if you have to fly at full power. 

Yes Sir

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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8 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Yes Sir

 

Well fine: perhaps it is a fact that it is slightly off, but are we allowed to know details?  Where do you get your information?   

 

How much is it off?  I can fly with the current FM hands off at 4,000m at about 1000rpm, at what altitude should that be possible?  There is enough forwards stick authority to pull out of a vertical dive by pushing: how much more does anyone actually need?

 

 

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21 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

Well fine: perhaps it is a fact that it is slightly off, but are we allowed to know details?  Where do you get your information?   

 

How much is it off?  I can fly with the current FM hands off at 4,000m at about 1000rpm, at what altitude should that be possible?  There is enough forwards stick authority to pull out of a vertical dive by pushing: how much more does anyone actually need?

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/7517-фм-летающего-цирка/

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From that thread I only see that AnPetrovich sees that some elevator positions look different in game compared to some real flown Dr1s, and he wants to look into this if he has the chance. Basically he is just responding to Chill's comments about how the elevator feels - while saying he does not know the exact answer.

 

As far as I can see he does not say that the pitching up is exaggerated at all. What he says is that planes were balanced for a certain speed and altitude, and we just do not know exactly how WW1 pilots balanced theirs.  My contention is that if you were regularly flying 2 hour patrols at 5-6 km altitude you would want to be able to cruise at slightly reduced throttle without stick pressure at that height.  The current Dr1 does this.  If you were flying every day trench strafing, you might very well prefer a balance at a higher speed and lower altitude.

 

Another relevant point is that he says:  On joysticks with FFB, there is no such inconsistency in the concept of power neutral simulation, since we can programmatically control the position of the power neutral. And here, ideally, the correspondence must be complete. Well, or at least better than on the joystick without FFB.  I am using a FFB stick - it is possible that the physical experience of people without is different and they have to push harder, I do not know.

 

He also says my idea of having an alternate balance setting that could be chosen like a mod pre-mission is also hopelessly impractical, so much for that. :) 

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