Using cockpit gauges vs. technochat - Adding an option to turn off the “technochat” in realism menu by server administrator

[Bies 470]

       At the beginning I would like to say thank you to all 777 team for developing two best simulators since legacy 2001 IL2 Sturmovik. It’s not an empty curtesy, it’s a fact, and people didn’t have that experience since old Virtual Fronts. Thank you for your fantastic work and keep it up!

 

       To start – we are not against the “technochat” per se, it’s a very nice tool for the new players to learn the basics or for faster servers like maybe Berloga, Wings of Liberty etc. where people prefer to have this extra information and are seeking kind of lighter experience. Big majority of servers will continue to use “technochat” anyway.

But they are also players with different preferences and I would like to present compact, essential article and present arguments of this players collected from the official IL2:BoX forum.

I publish this post on behalf of many people flying on more demanding servers not looking for simplification but more complete experience and support an idea of being able to turn off “technochat” in Realism menu by server administrator.

       With increasing popularity of more ambitious, more realistic and immersive servers we would like to discuss – in a polite, substantive way - the option of turning off or on “technochat” in difficulty options to make it possible to turn this feature off by server admin in Realism menu. Even just beyond Expert mode – like manual navigation right now.

We would like to have at least just one realistic server with settings like in old Virtual Fronts - without “technochat”.

       Some server owners (i.e. TAW administrators) would like to have this option and they have tried to find some ways to disable “technochat” to offer optimal experience for players but they didn’t have this option available:

Quote

   “I assure you that we plan to remove technochat as soon as possible. I do not know if this possibility exists after new patch release, but if so, the new campaigns will be without technochat.“

- =LG=Padre, TAW Admin.

       There are great realistic servers when people are enjoying slower, more realistic experience like Tactical Air War, Finnish Virtual Pilots, Coconut Expert etc. where people are enjoying realistic navigation using maps and radio beacons which is already far more selective than lack of “technochat”. An option to turn off “technochat” is very much awaited in this part of community! It would increase the immersion in few most realistic servers to a new level.

Many people are asking for this option since long time in many topics.

It will be exponentially important with Flying Circus release because RoF don’t provide the pilot with such unrealistic amount of information with realistic difficulty in Realism menu and many dedicated pilots playing RoF would be disappointed having “modern plane diagnostic computer” connected to every part of an airplane on board of WWI plane.

        Something like this:

     

     We have been inspired by other titles we played before like * legacy IL2 Sturmovik 1946, * IL2: Cliffs of Dover, * DCS World, * Rise of Flight – realistic servers in all this titles don’t have “technochat” and players are perfectly happy – so we wanted to find out if IL2:BoX can be fully experienced without this – for many - immersion braking simplification.

 

     Now, step by step I’ll present you how huge is the difference between flying with and without “technochat” using arguments of many users. 

Arguments for adding the option:

       1. Technochat” is not necessary to do anything in the game.

       First, we have spent last few weeks testing and flying on the Red side as Soviet pilots together with friends in a squadron @Denes, @303_Holly, @Gaps (and occasionally others) in Tactical Air War server – one of the most vibrant and most realistic server in IL2 at this moment created for people seeking immersion, manual navigation and accuracy instead of simplifications. We were using I-16, LaGG-3, P-40E, Yak-1 s.69, Yak 1b, La-5, Pe-2 s.35, Pe-2 s.87, Il-2 model 1941, Il-2 model 1942 and we did not find even one situation in which we would need the “technochat”.  Even if we find some situation when at first we thought “technochat” would be needed, it quickly turned out we just didn’t notice some indicator or real pilot also had to only estimate some setting.

How does it look like in i.e. MiG-3?

•        To set manifold or RPM? - just look at manifold RPM gauges instead of %

•        To see if gear is raised/lowered? - just look at the gear indicators

•        To trim the elevator? - just move the trim to a point you don't need to apply force

•        To lower or rise the flaps? - just push the button

•        To open or close radiator? - just hold the button and look at water/oil radiator gauges (i bet many folks didn't even know MiG has indicators for both)

•        To know the water or oil is overheating? - just look at temperature gauges

•        You have to estimate every damage according to gauges indications and plane response and behavior

How does it look like in i.e. La-5?

•        To set manifold or RPM? - just look at manifold RPM gauges instead of %

•        To see if gear is raised/lowered? - just look at the gear indicators or rods

•        To trim the elevator? - just move the trim to a point you don't need to apply force

•        To lower or rise the flaps? - just push the button

•        To open or close radiator? – just open oil radiator and inlets fully and forget, control outlet radiator visible through the windscreen

•        To know the water or oil is overheating? - just look at temperature gauges

•        To enable supercharger 2nd gear? - look at manifold jump or charger lever

•        You have to estimate every damage according to gauges indications and plane response and behavior

etc.

"Technochat" is just makes you react unrealistically faster, fly on unrealistic edge of performance to the last %, provide you with unrealistic amount of information and makes you more competitive but it is not needed at all to do everything in the game.

I’m using very basic Thrustmaster 16000M and keyboard, my friends have similar gear.

   Yes we were somewhat less competitive surrounded by enemies with such a huge unrealistic amount of information, flying at the very edge of performance, we were at some disadvantage fighting against the enemy, but there was no any situation when we would need “technochat” – it would just give us unrealistic edge.

 

       2. Current solution – being able to turn the “technochat” in options only for yourself is not a solution for MP – you would be the only one at disadvantage.

Quote

“It is to make sure that everybody on such a server would be playing on the same terms. Let me ask you a counter question, why do we need icons off setting? Everybody that does not like icons can turn them off on his own screen.” 

You are forced to choose between immersion and being more competitive even on servers where people prefer not to have “technochat” and use it being upset at the same time.

 

       3. It is not true that ability to turn off “technochat” will prefer one side more than the other, we tested that extensively.

We have flown Russian, German, American and British planes without “technochat” off-line and on-line, every one of them have to carry about different aspects: Russian planes don’t have precise controls for i.e. radiators, but have very sturdy engines, Germans have automated engine systems, but they have to often look at manifold pressure and can’t fly at such edge of their performance, American have indicators and gauges for all systems but their engines needs to be controlled to stay within limits etc.

 

As Russian pilot we don’t have to know if our radiator is 56 or 57% open. We need to know only its half open, one third or two thirds like real pilot knew.

Real pilot didn’t need such precise measures and he didn’t have them available because it don’t influence his fighting capabilities and we don’t need them also.

You count in mind seconds when pressing “open radiator” button without looking at wheel like real pilot counted in mind revolutions of the wheel without looking and without the scale to compare.

 

       4. There is no fear Server Administrators will abuse this option, probably only TAW, maybe Finnish or Coconut and small closed private servers “for friends” will use it. Realism options are being verified by everyday server’s life, like every other option. And Server administrators are the most informed how to make their servers full and attractive. No one will be upset and many people will be in haven.

In more casual and semi realistic servers admins will stick to "technochat" anyway. Only the most ambitious servers where people are seeking for more immersive/realistic experience like using cockpit gauges, navigating with map and radio beacons the "technochat" will have turned off so there is no risk somebody will be upset. And there will be plenty of extremally satisfied virtual pilots which experience will skyrocket.

 

       5. Rise of Flight, IL2 1946, Cliffs of Dover, DCS World, don’t use any permanently available “technochat” in realistic servers.

What is more – this realistic servers without any “technochat” are often the most popular with less realistic with “technochat” being less popular.

In RoF no one needed that and people was happy taking care of the plane and using cockpits and observing plane behavior instead of "technochat".

The whole fun was to use the output from the cockpit and the plane behavior instead of waiting for the text messages on the screen from an omnipotent on-board diagnostic computer.

       6. This table can look like a cold shower to some people but the situation really looks like that. I have a fear there will be not much to do during the flight in Flying Circus in compare to RoF if it will be impossible to turn off the “technochat” even with max Realism Settings servers for veterans already knowing their plane to the last screw.

 

       Table comparing activities to perform during typical flight and combat situation in RoF and IL2:BoX – both with max realism settings available:

(note IL2 is different ONLY because of "technochat" - without it IL2 is as great as the left side)

 

(I.e. - What would be a purpose of taking a thermometer in Flying Circus if “technochat” will tell you far more precisely and far faster you are overheating anyway. Just a redundant mass of a thermometer)       Now ask yourself a question: which side of the table is more attractive to use, especially for people preferring realistic settings?

 

Looking at modeled, fully functional gauges and indicators is redundant:

 

All oil/engine/water gauges are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely you are overhearting.

 

Flaps marks are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what is the position of flaps.

 

Gear indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even faster the gear is up or down.

 

Gunsight range/wingspan indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what you set.

 

Mixture indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position and even tell you - without looking at RPM or the exhaust colour and smoke - you have to change your mix because it is not optimal!

 

Radiator cowlings indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position and even tell you you are overheating.

 

Supercharger levers position are redundant - techno will tell you without looking what is your setting..

 

Stabilizer angle indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position - in real plane pilot set this before the manuver like dive, turn, takeoff or landing - here because of techno you will dynamically change the position during the fiercest dogfight without takeng your eye off the tagret.

 

RPM indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the setting in %, you also don't use it to set te mixture - techno will tell you more precisily and remember when it's not optimal.

 

Manifold indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely the position, regime - you don't even have to know where manifold gauge is...

 

 

Gear external indicators used in case of gauge failure are redundant - techno will tell you without looking the gear position.

 

Fuel indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking you are bingo 10 minutes fuel, you have to return to base.

 

Flaps indicators are redundant - techno will tell you without looking and even more presisely what is the position of flaps, you don't even operate in angle but in percent.

 

and many more.

 

       7. For many WWI Rise of Flight veterans the “technochat” available in all servers permanently in Flying Circus would be a big step back in compare with Rise of Flight level of immersion when you were using your instruments, plane behavior and other in cockpit indicators in realistic servers.

        The last thing I would like to see is dividing WWI flying community between more hardcore who stay with RoF with realistic amount of information and more casual, who play FC without an option to block unrealistic “technochat” and without need to observe your plane behavior and gauges.

Looking at your gauges to see the fuel reserve, engine temperature, engine damage, optimal mixture etc. is the most beautiful and very engaging parts of the RoF together with its unique flight model. 

         

       8. The only other flight sim which uses permanently available “technochat” is War Thunder… (but even in War Thunder it is more discrete) and consider the fact in War Thunder lot of gauges and levers – opposite to IL2 - don’t work at all and that is the reason WT has it’s discrete “technochat”.

       9. Without “technochat” you are learning your plane, which is very satisfying for many players. After a few flights you know where even less crucial instruments are because you need them, what are optimal position and parameters.

With “technochat” all planes feels far more similar to each other with their % steering and without need to be familiar with their cockpits or some characteristic behavior.

       10. With “technochat” people are flying at absolute edge of performance because they are constantly feed by unrealistic information about overheating, overboosting etc.

It should not be the case, in CloD, RoF, DCS (and in real life) pilot don’t know exactly if he’s in this or another engine regime, he need to actually look at Manifold/RPM and judge by himself if he’s not pushing too hard.

It worked in all previous sims, it will work also in IL2:BoX.

       11. The pool had been created in Pools section and more than 87% of voters are FOR adding an ability to turn off “technochat” in Realism menu by server creator.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/35340-technochat-as-an-option-in-realism-settings/?tab=comments#comment-595239

       12. The main logic of the settings in IL2 is: all settings which influence your realism and chances to win are included in Realism menu. Technochat - which increases your chances to win by a big margin is not included in Realism menu in IL2.

       13. Many active community members support or proposed an option to turn off “technochat” in Realism menu by server administrator in many topics of this forum.

Many of them are founders and testers, some of them are server administrators, some of them are youtubers, very reasonable people. 

(i placed nicks to invite them to discussion if they prefer to do so)

  @=EXPEND=Tripwire, @Pict, @JG5_Schuck, @19//SAG, @72sq_Savinio, @LF_ManuV, @=LG=Padre, @Ala13_Antiguo, @SvAF/F19_Tomten, @Sambot88, @Tailwheelbrownbear, @dburne, @kalbuth, @302_Osh, @GridiroN, @56RAF_Talisman, @TunaEatsLion, @F/JG300_Gruber, @Darbzy, @6./ZG26_Emil, @303_dariopl, @unreasonable, @Y-29.Silky, @1./JG2_Little_D, @303_Vins, @xvii-Dietrich, @JaffaCake, @SharpeXB, @=OPS=zaratustra, @Sim, @Cpt_Siddy, @HillBilly, @sereme1, @=LD=Hethwill, @=L/R=Coldman, @Axurit, @4./JG26_Onebad, @avlSteve, @Tuesday, @Legioneod, @Karol, @Dron, @-IRRE-Therion, @Haza, @67th_SiLLA, @303_Tees, @icecream, @71st_AH_Hooves, @150GCT_Veltro, @kramer, @Field-Ops, @Gaps, @Disarray, @=FEW=Herne, @Yogiflight, @FuriousMeow, @MicEzo, @7.GShAP/Silas, @=FEW=Psyrion, @150GCT_Pan, @Tomsk, @Sorbifer, @303_HOLY, @III./ZG1_Felix_Iron, @SailorMcintosh, @SCG_Riksen, @HenHawk, @LLv44_Mprhead, @NN_RugbyGoth, @Emil_Junus, @Denes, @II./JG1_Kadin, @[I./JG62]Knipser, @II./JG77_Kemp, @JG4_dingsda

       14. What is behind the idea of need to have on-board diagnostic computer connected to every single strut in the WWII airplane available in the most realistic settings?

WWII pilot shouldn’t be constantly informed in real time about every single scratch of every element of his plane even in most realistic settings – by the text massage.

In RoF, DCS, CloD - pilot do not have this information with realistic settings, he has to use his common sense and cockpit instruments instead which is more engaging than reading a text hints.

(The amount of information IL2 "technochat" provide is in many cases faster, more precise and wider than modern fighter's diagnostic computers provide in i.e. F/A-18C Hornet from DCS. )

       15. Nearly all beautifully modeled, textured, and fully working instruments, levers, gauges, indicators are of no use because of “technochat”. Sadly no one actually use them in MP because, due to "technochat", there is no point doing so. Why to write manuals with the information of max temperatures for different planes in IL2 when no one use them, you can forget about them because omnipotent “technochat” is going to tell you anyway.

Just a few screens to show how permanently available “technochat” is rendering IL2’s fantastically modeled cockpits and most gauges, levers and indicators of no use.

•        Temperature Gauges (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell faster and more precisely you anyway you're overheating differing even water and oil)

•        Manifold pressure and RPM indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you anyway your exact percent and engine regime, combat mode, boosted mode etc.)

•        Fuel Gauges (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you - you are bingo fuel, RTB)

•        Gear position indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you gear up/down)

•        Gear position rods (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you gear up/down)

•        Flaps position indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact value with accuracy to one percent)

•        Flaps position marks (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact value with accuracy to one percent)

•        Radiator position indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact value with accuracy to one percent)

•        Horizontal stabilizer indicator (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact value with accuracy to one percent, not even degrees, without a quick glance at the indicator)

•        Mixture position indicators, mixture control by RPM/Manifold (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact value with accuracy to one percent and wrong mixture text)

•        Supercharger position levers (no need to look at them or at manifold indicator jump, technochat will tell you faster)

•        Oil pressure indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell immediately about oil system being hit)

•        Gunsight range/wingspan indicators (no need to look at them at all, technochat will tell you exact settings to the one foot)

With “technochat” being permanently available there is no need to even know all this instruments exist. Lack of purpose to use all this instruments with max realism settings, is huge wasted potential at this moment.

To use cockpit gauges and indicators is a pure pleasure for many players and the justification of the time spent by developers modeling and animating the cockpits, gauges, levers and systems.

 

       16. Many players fly without “technochat” in single player career because flying without it makes you actually use your gauges, indicators and levers and look at the beautifully modeled and textured cockpits with working systems what is far more immersive.

 

     17. Users flying on most realistic servers may be not the most numerous but they are veterans and active members of the community presenting their opinions of various forums, running blogs and YT channels. Their better experience they will attract even bigger amount of users to the game.

 

       18. My brother recently became a part of IL2 community due to generosity of another member. My brother liked the game so much he immediately bought all other modules of the game. Right from the start he played without “technochat”, I did not tell him it is available in the game.

He did not have any problems playing without “technochat” right from the start on Finnish Virtual Pilots.

 

       19. Lack of text and UI on the screen is general trend in all PC games right now.

 

       20. There were similar concerns with lack of navigation assistance (GPS) and it turned out one of the currently most vibrant server in IL2 – TAW (together with many other like Finnish or Coconut) are using this option with great success and people are happy and visit them extensively enjoying demanding experience.

 

       21. There is also one more aspect: many people don’t even know there is an option to turn the “technochat” off because “technochat” is being turned on by default and hidden in options menu (which menu many people are using only one time after installing the game) and many of them would enjoy using gages, cockpits, levers etc. instead of reading a text of “technochat”.

Being in Realism options together with other realism settings would make it far more accessible.

       

     22. People flying in servers like Tactical Air War, Finnish Virtual Pilots, Coconut Expert are mostly veterans of other flight sims, very often since legacy 2001 IL2 Sturmovik or even earlier. They don’t need text chat being available. Most of them know their planes to the last screw. Many of them artificially restrict themselves turning off “technochcat” for themselves and putting themselves at disadvantage because they prefer realistic, immersive WWII experience and losing than having on-board computer and winning. Many of them will love to have an ability to take care of the plane, to use gauges, levers, indicators, plane behavior than just reading artificial unrealistic “technochat” text massages.

 

We only ask for just an OPTION to choose, it will not hurt anybody and it will make happy many people at the same time.

       I can perfectly understand some people will prefer to stay with "technochat" and I’m perfectly ok with that, 90% of the servers will stick to “technochat” anyway.

But many users would like to have this option to turn off “technochat”.

       Final conclusion

       “Technochat” has its place in less realistic servers where people are looking for less demanding gameplay, and possibly in semi realistic mainstream servers like Berloga, Wings of Liberty and many more.

       But there is also a need for realistic servers where people are looking for more demanding gameplay with manual navigation and using instruments during flight without “technochat”.

Big number of veterans deserve to have an opportunity to play on 1-2 most hardcore servers with full experience.

      Jason, please trust the people and their common sense. Having an option is having a choice, reasonable people will reasonable use the option as they prefer to have an optimal experience.

Please let the game to use its full potential which is already here but hidden behind permanently available “technochat” depriving purpose of most indicators, gauges, and levers in cockpits and reading plane behavior and let the most realistic servers to grow even more offering even better experience.

 

       Flying Circus early access would be an ideal moment to implement this option to allow smooth transition for RoF veterans from Rise of Flight to Flying Circus.

 

Everything is modeled in the game to work perfectly without the "technochat", many people fly without techno restricting themselves, the only thing we need is an option for server administrator.

 

Grateful for you work, dedicated 777 company Rise of Flight and IL: BoX fans:

Bies, Denes, 303_Holly, Gaps, Dron, 302_Osh, Dario.

 

BTW. Please do not use any offensive language, flame or abuse in this topic. Only polite substantive discussion.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Bies

[Kseremak 41]

I’m rather new to the community, I jumped here from War Thunder.

IL2 is great but I also had only this one concern: WarThunder-like tech chat, I would prefer to have some server without it to have more real experience.

This whole tech chat is an argument for many people in WT forum not to jump to IL2 “because IL2 has unrealistic technical chat also, so what the difference” or “so what IL2 has fully working and animated cockpits and instruments if they are of no use anyway because tech chat, so what the difference”.

I have no problem playing without tech tips in IL2 (like I didn’t in RoF) and it gives me truly WWII experience, I support an idea of including tech chat in realism options for server admin.

Best regards to developers and this unique community

[=EXPEND=Tripwire 632]

Great post - I would also like to add, please include the HUD compass as well when removing these assists. There is a perfectly working one in the cockpit, you just need to turn your head and look at it.

Edited July 13, 2018 by =EXPEND=Tripwire

[SCG_Space_Ghost 1965]

If GUI elements like object markers can be a server-side option, technobabybabble should be a server-side option as well.

[ACG_Shadepiece 71]

I fully agree with this, and will add my +1. As a server admin myself, I would very much like the addition of this option.

[MicEzo 56]

Yes, i was a RoF maniac those times and lack of UI on the screen was the biggest immersion creator in RoF.
And the biggest difference between RoF and other sims - a symbol of next gen technology when you need only your cockpit gauges and plane behavior observation instead of artificial chats in other sims.
Please don't make a step back in FC in compare with RoF - give the chat as an option in difficulty settings.
I love your sim but I can’t imagine Flying Circus with this tech chat available all server without exception.
Every activity would be so simplified compared to RoF.

 

For me it would be 100% worth even if only TAW would use them.

BTW. Thanks Bies and others for this topic and for raising this matter on the forum!

[przybysz86 2]

I like the idea - maybe we can get options to have some categories of technochat turned on/off. example: overheat warning removed for added immersion but say radiator leaver position left on. Why? in planes like P-40 you could roughly adjust radiator w/o watching just by knowing where your leave position is. And while we mostly use throttle, rudder, etc for RPM and MAP not many people have enough axis on their sticks to include radiators, etc and they have to use keayborad. w/o techno chat they would have to look down into cabin to see how much it's opened.

All I say is that those chats should be grouped and each group given separate on/off option. but overall good idea

[ACG_Talisman 554]

Agree with OP.  The ability to not have technochat on a MP server for all would give our community an entirely reasonable optional choice in my view.  I very much hope to have the option to fly without technochat on selected MP servers in the not too distant future.

 

Definitely a 'value added' option, for a great combat flight simulation.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

 

[Garven 384]

53 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

I like the idea - maybe we can get options to have some categories of technochat turned on/off. example: overheat warning removed for added immersion but say radiator leaver position left on. Why? in planes like P-40 you could roughly adjust radiator w/o watching just by knowing where your leave position is. And while we mostly use throttle, rudder, etc for RPM and MAP not many people have enough axis on their sticks to include radiators, etc and they have to use keayborad. w/o techno chat they would have to look down into cabin to see how much it's opened.

All I say is that those chats should be grouped and each group given separate on/off option. but overall good idea

RoF had basic throttle, mixture, and radiator position indicators on expert servers that were small bars that showed what your throttle position was and how far open your radiators were.  I found this useful because I was using a mouse wheel for throttle and key pad buttons for radiator and you couldn't gauge by feel what your throttle lever or radiator lever position was in.  I think that indicator bars would be useful for those without all the fancy flight sim controls at the same time not being as immersion killing like exact percentages on the side of the screen.

Edited July 13, 2018 by US103_Furlow

[F/JG300_Gruber 495]

@bies There is a point I would like to expand a bit about competitiveness of players and general experience :

 

Beside the fact that the on-board diagnostic computer makes it very easy to get the absolute juice out of your plane and react to the slightest damage in an unrealistic manner, like you perfectly explained, not having to monitor the needles inside the cockpit is also an advantage in the same way of having the GPS available : it increases your situationnal awareness by a good margin. 

 

That is one thing that I loved about Full expert server compared to, say WoL, is that you can actually ambush people, sneak up on them or go unnoticed while in sight and this is because they have something else to do than looking outside for enemies 99% of the time : having to navigate. This sets appart the good pilots, that know how to manoeuvre but also know how to navigate efficiently, from the good dogfighters who are just good in combat aerobatics. 

 

Removing the technochat further valorize the pilot skills on fast information acquiring and good plane knowledge. And since even experienced pilots will spend a bit more time looking inside, it is also a bit of a relief for attackers who may get a little extra chance of survival. 

 

Server administrators have a lot of creativity when it comes to find ways to incitate people to fly in a bit more "responsible" manner, care a bit more about pilot life and machines and overall, fly a bit more faithfully to how it was done before (though I'm aware it will still be a war on computer). Giving people more realistic piloting stuff to do while flying will help achieve that.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by F/JG300_Gruber

[41Sqn_Riksen 1533]

Agreed. It should at least be optional not to mention it also takes a hit in fps for some reason ...

[xvii-Dietrich 372]

Well done @bies on thoroughly-researched and well-presented arguments.

 

I definitely support this proposal and would add the following comments:

 

Layout

 

One of the things that makes some aircraft superior to others is cockpit layout (c.f. FW 190 vs Bf 109). Without technochat, those "better-layout" aircraft are advantaged, as is historically appropriate.

 

Risk

 

Not knowing the exact percentage means that flying at the edge of performance is risky. I know that throttle 94% is safe and throttle 95% is not, so I can simply increase up and fly safely at the limit. If this is not available, then you either need to take the risk, be conservative, or edge your way up to maximum performance, nervously keeping an eye on the temperatures and RPM-counter.

 

 

And, finally,

 

Demanding?

 

3 hours ago, bies said:

“Technochat” has its place in less realistic servers where people are looking for less demanding gameplay,

 

I agree that technochat has its place. It is extremely useful for learning, for example... especially as a newcomer to the genre can be overwhelmed by a plethora of details. However, I strongly disagree that the technochat gameplay is "less demanding". It is simply "different demands", putting more emphasis on situational awareness, aiming, flying skill, etc., instead of on engine management or airframe damage evaluation.

 

For those, who want a game that tests their aiming, manoeuvring and so on, then technochat allows them to concentrate on that. For those who want a more role-playing and multi-faceted experience, have the server-ability to turn off technochat globally does indeed level that playing field and makes for a fair and immersive experience.

 

[HenHawk 87]

@bies I am very impressed and thankful for the amount of time you must have put into getting this post/suggestion together. I support all your ideas on this 100%. Only the Devs know how much time and resources would be needed to add a server option to disable or restrict technochat, but I think just this change would be a welcome start to improving the multiplayer experience. 

 

I get the cold fact that new content generates revenue and must be the main focus for a game studio, especially a small niche one, to survive. But, I’m concerned there hasn’t been enough attention towards many bugs/additions/tweaks being addressed, which I get the general feeling a lot of MP players are getting frustrated about. I hope a technochat server option is enough of a “low hanging fruit” for the Dev team to look at. 

 

To those saying they like flying with technochat, I don’t see how adding a server side option would prevent you from continuing to do so. There will probably still be plenty of servers, most likely WoL in particular, that would keep it on.

Edited July 13, 2018 by HenHawk

[SAG 398]

I agree with the OP that techno chat should be a server side option. i've always found it too distracting. i fly with the HUD off most of the time except when i hear the beep noise from the chat then i turn it back on for a second to read, then off again.

[Cpt_Siddy 1413]

yes plz, and while you are at it, give us "REAL" engine modes, not the gamy "2 minutes and engine go boom" modes. 

 

And add after missions plane condition status report, so the server owners can work with the data of the condition of the plane players bring back. (points for better condition plane, etc...), This way, you can transfer the condition of the plane from mission to mission and make some planes unavailable for some missions for the engine overhaul. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[sunrrrise 14]

+1

 

Personally I never fly with technochat on SP and MP, but I agree it should be server side option, not client side.

[SAG 398]

well, they moved this thread fast, now people wont see it

[HenHawk 87]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

yes plz, and while you are at it, give us "REAL" engine modes, not the gamy "2 minutes and engine go boom" modes. 

 

And add after missions plane condition status report, so the server owners can work with the data of the condition of the plane players bring back. (points for better condition plane, etc...), This way, you can transfer the condition of the plane from mission to mission and make some planes unavailable for some missions for the engine overhaul. 

 

Might be a little ambitious given the size of the Dev team and their focus right now, but all of this would be awesome for those of us that want a more realistic experience.

[150GCT_Veltro 513]

+1, 100%

[kalbuth 72]

In complete agreement with OP.

The only border case that could be argued is having instrument positions given as a help for those that don't have available controls that would permit them to know the actual position of their lever in cockpit. There is often a rotating wheel in cockpit that gives you zero visual indication of actual position. When mapped to an axis (say, on my X55 throttle, one of the rotating knob), I know all the time the exact position of this knob, thus the exact position of the wheel in cockpit. Someone without this kind of available axis on his setup won't have this information so it could be conveyed through some technochat thing. It's very difficult to position a wheel on a defined position with plus/minus keys if you don't have any feedback of current position.

 

Anything else is absolutely unneeded. I put myself in disadvantage now by having technochat 100% off all the time, that doesn't prevent me to fly any aircraft in any way, I just have a bit more workload, exactly as it should be.

[majkel 2]

+1

 

Please devs, add the option to remove the technochat per server.

[Pict 549]

Thanks bies for a fantastic OP where you have managed to pull together the huge amount of desire in the community for the implementation of this much needed option. You have done this in a clear and informative way, while remaining unbiased and polite, which alone deserves respect, but to do so in what, I assume from your location, is not your 1st language?, deserves huge respect.

 

I sincerely hope it has the desired effect and those with the power & ability to make it happen, would read it and at the very least make a comment.

 

20 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Great post - I would also like to add, please include the HUD compass as well when removing these assists. There is a perfectly working one in the cockpit, you just need to turn your head and look at it.

 

Agreed and agreed, the compass should be included with the technochat from this point of view.

 

As was noted in the OP, a few months ago I made a poll https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/35340-technochat-as-an-option-in-realism-settings/?tab=comments#comment-595239 to see if people would object to this idea and hopefully to hear what their objection would be, if any. I gave the poll just over 1 month to run, so that anyone with any interest would have the time to vote and so that it wouldn't drag on for too long and so give a clear snap shot of opinion. The results were interesting  

 

Of the 39 who voted only 5 objected, which is a clear enough result on it's own, but when you take into account that of the 5 who objected, not one would state why they objected. This silence spoke volumes to me as it shows that they have no reasonable reason to object and they know this.

 

At this point I would like to add one other "feature" to the list that we can turn off... radio chatter.

 

I find this just as immersion killing as the technochat. I want to listen to my aircraft, not some looping recording I can't understand but as of now have zero option to switch it off, even although the AI pilot diligently switches it on every time you run the startup routine, so there is an off button somewhere  

 

Additionally, for those with technochat enabled, they can read what the radio chatter says, and use it as some kind of early warning radar system, if I'm not mistaken?

 

How with the radio chatter fit in with Flying Circus?...similar to the technochat I'd say.

 

Finally, for the fun of playing with words, I propose we rearrange the letters and make technochat - notechchat 

 

 

[Psyrion 474]

@bies Thanks for tagging me.

I don´t have much if anything to add to the discussion. You summed it all up nicely!

I would mostly fly without the HUD anyway if it wasn´t for the ingame chat and server messages.

Actually having to pay attention to the nicely modelled cockpit is fun!

 

@kalbuth I agree on the axis part but I think it´s not that big of a deal because it mostly affects radiators and mixture which are not that important to get spot on anyway. I don´t have a hotas setup so saying this might bite me in the ass later 

 

@Pict

10 minutes ago, Pict said:

Additionally, for those with technochat enabled, they can read what the radio chatter says, and use it as some kind of early warning radar system, if I'm not mistaken?

I believe reading the radio chatter is not technochat but ingame chat. It is not of much if any use because it only consists of "I´m wounded!" or "On fire, bailing out!" without any info about position, altitude or what happened. In Multiplayer that is.

 

 

 

[LF_Gallahad 1841]

Thanks Bies, I support this idea 100%. Options are the perfect choice.

 

Regards

[unreasonable 3161]

I am actually a bit sceptical that technochat provides an advantage, since whenever I have had it on for some reason or other I find it hugely distracting, but even so, server providers should be able to set the realism conditions on their server, assuming this is technically possible.  I cannot see why anyone can reasonably object to that.  My house, my rules, so to speak.

 

If making it a specific server option is tricky technically, one option would be to make Technochat a "Normal" realism setting option,  on the main realism option page along with everything else, where it should have been from the beginning, so that it is never available on "Expert" settings in any game-play mode.  In SP you just play Custom anyway, so you can have it or not.

 

I prefer flying with a clean screen and think it is better for my flying - but then I have TiR and a large screen. I do think that some allowance should be made for people who are still stuck with inferior hardware. When your compass is stuck behind the joystick, for instance, some people will have problems using it. Hence the HUD compass, so I am sympathetic to a limited number of HUD elements  being available even on highly real settings, even if I would never use them.  Bies strongest arguments IMHO relate to the damage reporting and related throttle settings - although the latter would not be an issue if the engine management was not so dependent on exact rpm and time limits. 

 

Anyway, +1 to OP for a thorough discussion. 

 

 

[Pict 549]

1 hour ago, =FEW=Psyrion said:

I believe reading the radio chatter is not technochat but ingame chat. It is not of much if any use because it only consists of "I´m wounded!" or "On fire, bailing out!" without any info about position, altitude or what happened. In Multiplayer that is.

 

You might be right...but I've seen it put out info about enemy aircraft and approximate location

[1./JG2_Little_D 72]

Hi bies,

 

thank you very mutch for this great post. I am also with the other members that respond here. A HuD compass would be nice for the people with less good

hardware. Also i think for the 2 engine planes a little info about witch engine is selected, as we have it now would be ok. But nothing more no GPS, cooler settings,

mixture, flaps, gear,  ammo counter, bomb selection, etc. I think personally that if someone needs more info over techchat or something else to fly in this game the

planes he wants to fly, he is not ready yet to come on a server with this settings. Some will be pissed about that the other ones will train to fly on a server like this.

This will also lead to a better behavior on the ground, with taxiing, looking, etc., because if some one is willing to learn to fly without training weels, he will also

learn the rest.

 

So if we would get this option in the future for the server admins + a different or maby better to say an classic style of map building we could get

a 24/7 day server with playground for all kind of virtual pilots. Bomber,- fighterbomber,- fighter pilots in squads or loose formation and the fast action players all with the same passion and approach even afast action pilot can care for his life . And when i see how many aaa low and high is on a map on WoL + the objects it could be possible to reactivate the good old semi historical campaign/ fast action simulation server with 365 day of max players on the server in the main stream time. As i think there are mutch more out there with the same passion and approach to fit all on the server at the same time. Need to talk to an map builder that remembers Warbirds of Prey Spit vs 109 server and others and there rules and maps in 2007 - 2009 if i find one.

 

regards

 

Little_D

Edited July 14, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D

[ACG_Talisman 554]

1 hour ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

So if we would get this option in the future for the server admins + a different or maby better to say an classic style of map building we could get

a 24/7 day server with playground for all kind of virtual pilots. Bomber,- fighterbomber,- fighter pilots in squads or loose formation and the fast action players all with the same passion and approach even afast action pilot can care for his life . And when i see how many aaa low and high is on a map on WoL + the objects it could be possible to reactivate the good old semi historical campaign/ fast action simulation server with 365 day of max players on the server in the main stream time. As i think there are mutch more out there with the same passion and approach to fit all on the server at the same time. Need to talk to an map builder that remembers Warbirds of Prey Spit vs 109 server and others and there rules and maps in 2007 - 2009 if i find one.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

At the risk of going off topic, I like what you say about the servers we used to have in the WoP and Spits vs 109 (IL-2 1946 style), because I find most of the servers we have in BoX to be somewhat over-scripted.  So much so that my squad is frequently hunting around from server to server trying to find a map that does not restrict our aircraft, airfield and loadout options so much that we can't actually do what we would like to do and operate as a squad of 8 to 10 players.  Bring back the old style servers I say, with a bit more freedom of choice.  Still, this should be a topic for a separate thread so lets not go off on a tangent.  Good to see I am not the only one that misses the style and type of MP server we used to have available.  And before anybody quips that I can always start my own server, I have to say I am computer tech stupid and all my kit is as old as the hills, LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

[ZachariasX 2537]

I think it is a good thing to have more granular options on how the game is run as determined by the server. If the server would be well attended in relation to imposed restrictions will be another matter. But it surely would be great if it is. We'll see.

 

On the other hand, so far, I think if someone is comfortable to fly without technochat then he/she is probably a lot better than people who depend on technochat. So I don't really see an advantage mediatedby technochat. It would more level the playfield. And for one self, one can always toggle it of. Thus, I think this:

On 7/13/2018 at 4:18 PM, bies said:

 2. Current solution – being able to turn the “technochat” in options only for yourself is not a solution for MP – you would be the only one at disadvantage.

is in the real world not correct. Technochat is not perfect either and just following that will not let you max. your settings. You can be better than technochat.

 

I also don't understand the example with RoF. RoF has the 2D mini gauges. Some of them can be selected or deselected server side. But in all cases, you get to see an illustration indicating lever settings (throttle/rad/mixture/Höhengas). This is pretty much "technochat" for RoF purposes. Always on. Besides, the planes have much less functionality. So for people without TiR it is much hareder to have a look on compass and certain gauges, putting THEM at a significant disadvantage to others who have bought all that fancy gear.

 

So just type "h" and make BoX great again. You also get added FPS wich can only be to your benefit compared to the heathen that keeps it on.

 

Having said that, I repeat that I too would endorse a more granular setting option for (or "against") technochat. But I do seriously doubt that this will bring the expected awesomness. The main difference is you are much rather partonizing someone elses flying style than "enforcing realism". But on your server, this should be ok.

 

[SailorMcintosh 13]

+1

Yes please, include the option to disable tech chat for server admins.

 

The best virtual fronts in old IL2 didn't have any tech chat, even compass and they had the biggest player numbers. And they gave the biggest amount of emotions and moments to remember.

 

CloD also can disable all chat in best servers.

We would like to play using instruments just in one or two most hardcore servers.

In Flying Circus also.👍

[JG5_Schuck 330]

Ive been flogging this dead horse for 5 years now...... (since 2013)

I have asked/pleaded with the devs for a server side option a dozen times, but to no avail...

For some reason they are dead against the idea.

So Good luck.

 

But i agree 100% with everything that has been said.

 

And as Tripewire says, this should also include the onscreen compass.

 

There is quite simply not a single plane in game that you need technochat to fly....... so no excuse! 

 

 

 

ps. a well thought out, laid out and executed post with supporting evidence, but i fear it will fall upon deaf ears.....

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by JG5_Schuck

[JaffaCake 173]

If implemented - I feel it would be good to separate the "feel" gauges and the "monitor" gauges as settings.

 

I.e. - flap / trim / other levers in the cockpit do not require to be looked at - it is generally OK to have a techno-chat-like gauge "hint" for even expert flyers. As if that is disabled, people with "proper" gear still get advantage as to them its a lever position, while to others its an obscure button click.

 

On the other hand "aircraft omniscient monitoring system" that tells you the "gauge readouts" and "cause" effects - i.e. bitching betty - pull up, raise gear, you are overheating, you are in combat mode, you are in emergency mode, you have low fuel etc etc. That has to definitely be a realism setting, even if lever-level technochat stays.

Edited July 15, 2018 by JaffaCake

[Herne 857]

Really good well thought out OP.

 

One of the things that really annoys me is when I see you tubers trying IL2 and they say things like "It's arcade" without having spent any time to appreciate the nuances with the individual aircraft, or to take any time sorting out their user interface to set it up so they only see what they are looking for.

 

I would really love for more server side options, including technochat to be available to server admins.

[=LD=Hethwill 279]

The nature of the game package is:

 

- multiplayer server setup

- solo / coop setup

 

Having the technochat on/off option is a total plus.

 

We can go on discussing the merits of having it off or on but the discussion is about - having the option. And in that regard I must say - yes, having the option is good. Server admins can then decide whatever they want to do with it. Same with the game masters in solo/coop.

Edited July 17, 2018 by =LD=Hethwill

[J2_Trupobaw 911]

Quote

It will be exponentially important with Flying Circus release because RoF don’t provide the pilot with such unrealistic amount of information with realistic difficulty in Realism menu and many dedicated pilots playing RoF would be disappointed having “modern plane diagnostic computer” connected to every part of an airplane on board of WWI plane.

This is the part I must protest and dispute. Rise of Flight in full realistic mode does provide pilot with much information that is being handled by technochat in BoX, in form of 2d engine management gauges which can't be turned off server-side. They become essential as soon as your physical throttle quadrant starts spiking (or, if you have none). The original poster and other people with similar agenda were informed of this fact repeatedly, but choose to ignore the reality and drag WW1 in as made-up example supporting their views. I respectfully recommend the OP to remove the references to RoF and FC,  as per forum rule 17.

As of technochat itself - i am with JaffaCake on this one. Technochat should be split into always available "lever positions" gauges - which give pilot information on how far he has moved in-cockpit controls, and if he's moving any in-cockpit controls at all - and "omniscient advisor" gauges, telling pilot things like engine mode he's using, reminding to rise landing gear, warning against high dive speeds, reminding of engine overheats itd. The second part should be disabled on server side. The first part should be always available, if only to let pilot check which button is operating airbrake or 110-style radiator, without digging up cockpit schematics or going into key bindings menu in flight. Sure, on the paper you have to be familiar with your cockpit and know which in-cockpit lever should be moving, but in practice things like group preferences and available planes (on servers like TAW) keep landing you in planes you were not planning to fly. Not to mention having to move your (spiking) physical lever then looking at in cockpit lever to see how far it really went - obstruction that has nothing to do with realism. This is also fully in spirit of RoF and CloD where "lever positions" gauges are always available but "omniscient advisor" is absent or can be turned off, server side. 

Actually, I think that technochat should be treated exactly like RoF 2d gauges. When gauges are enabled server-side (airqake servers) pilot gets lot of unrealistic information, like ammo level, how far is he from never exceed speed, how far is he from never exceed RPM, plus things like speed and radar altitude. Plus positions of all in-cockpit levers. When gauges are disabled server side, things like NES disappear, but positions of all gauges are still present.

[Pict 549]

5 minutes ago, LsV_Trupobaw said:

I respectfully recommend the OP to remove the references to RoF and FC,  as per forum rule 17

 

If that's what you call respect, I shudder to think what you call disrespect  

[Pict 549]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:29 PM, unreasonable said:

I am actually a bit sceptical that technochat provides an advantage, since whenever I have had it on for some reason or other I find it hugely distracting

 

Like you I also see the technochat as a distraction, however there are many people who use it to fly while keeping their eyes on their opponent. This massive advantage in situational awareness is the main reason these people don't want to give up the technochat...

 

Have a look at some of the YouTube videos made by some where they regularly make 5, 6 or 7 "kills" in a flight...notice how they keep eyes on target while flying the aircraft to it max potential, rarely if ever looking into the cockpit for any reason.

 

If everything else was equal, you & I would be at a massive disadvantage against an opponent using the technochat in this manner.

 

On 7/14/2018 at 2:29 PM, unreasonable said:

I do think that some allowance should be made for people who are still stuck with inferior hardware. When your compass is stuck behind the joystick, for instance, some people will have problems using it.

 

There is a beautifully made option to set a custom snap view and it is easy to setup so that your virtual head turns to point directly at your compass. So there is no reasonable argument to have a compass HUD

 

============

 

@ all those who suggest including small elements of the technochat. I would like to say, this whole thing is about having the option to turn the technochat off. It's not about having a watered down version of what we are already stuck with, for any reason.

 

If you want a watered down version of the technochat, looking for it where people are campaigning to have an option to turn the technochat off is simply the wrong venue. Why not start a campaign of your own, in another thread, with another poll for a watered down technochat?

[unreasonable 3161]

@Pict this is a forum thread not a political party rally: anyone can comment to express the pros and cons of the suggestion as they see it. The OP asked for polite substantive discussion, which is what he has got. Is there a poll? I did not see one: if there was I would vote for the server to have the option just as the OP asks.

 

BTW I really cannot see how having a compass HUD can possibly help someone fly any plane to it's limits and shoot down multiple enemy in one flight!

 

 

 

[J2_Trupobaw 911]

 

2 hours ago, Pict said:

 

If that's what you call respect, I shudder to think what you call disrespect  

That's the parts I edit away before I hit "post reply"  . 
 

 

Quote

Like you I also see the technochat as a distraction, however there are many people who use it to fly while keeping their eyes on their opponent. This massive advantage in situational awareness is the main reason these people don't want to give up the technochat...

I don't want to give up on technochat because of spiking levers, multitude controls and that three month period when my left wirst was broken and I had to remap my throttle to rudder pedal. In WW1 I could go without helpers, but in WW2 keeping the throttle pedal at set position between 0 and 100% without monitoring A.T.A all the time required constant feedback. I get it that people with good controls in perfect working conditions can do without that; the rest of us needs a feedback interface level between physical controls and in-game controls.
 

Quote

 

@ all those who suggest including small elements of the technochat. I would like to say, this whole thing is about having the option to turn the technochat off. It's not about having a watered down version of what we are already stuck with, for any reason.

 

If you want a watered down version of the technochat, looking for it where people are campaigning to have an option to turn the technochat off is simply the wrong venue. Why not start a campaign of your own, in another thread, with another poll for a watered down technochat?

 

I want to salvage the merits from proposal that makes a valid point then spills the baby along with bathwater. And test how much this thing really is about open discussing improvements to game that serve maximal number of people.

Edited July 17, 2018 by LsV_Trupobaw

[Pict 549]

12 minutes ago, LsV_Trupobaw said:

I don't want to give up on technochat because of...

 

And you just would not have to give up on it if not having it becomes an option.

 

Not at any point does any advocate of making the turning off of technochat an option, suggest that any of the already included features, like and including technochat in BOX are removed.

 

12 minutes ago, LsV_Trupobaw said:

I want to salvage the merits from proposal that makes a valid point

 

No you don't...you just want to water it down to suit your personal taste.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Pict