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Bf 109 K4 information?

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22 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Hit in the turbo and it will be flying tractor :lol:

 

But 8x of AMERICAN .50 CAL... 

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Now seriously, its good that it isnt one hit one kill all the time with mk108, but if the planes continue fight after 2-4 hits , there is something wrong imho.

Edited by Voidhunger
  • Upvote 3

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3 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Now seriously, its good that it isnt one hit one kill all the time with mk108, but if the planes continue fight after 2-4 hits , there is something wrong imho.

From information available to me 1 hit with 30mm M-Geschoss should damage any single seat fighter so much, it will not be able to continue fighting. In combat zone it means bailing out or risk getting killed. Two hits will evaporate it.

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3 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

How could that possibly be? And how likely is that?

 

Some Mk 108 damage pics:

 

 

469646329_dee07050e0_o.jpg

6043188566_464b9b20dc_z.jpg

bomber_22.jpg

mk-108_blenheim.jpg

post-7864-0-69284200-1398526191.jpg

jCBZHix.jpg

Some of those pics are from flak not 30mm.

 

1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

From information available to me 1 hit with 30mm M-Geschoss should damage any single seat fighter so much, it will not be able to continue fighting. In combat zone it means bailing out or risk getting killed. Two hits will evaporate it.

Fighting and flying are two different things, I do agree that it wont be able to fight but it's possible that it can survive one hit and make it home, it just depends.

 

55 minutes ago, Gridset said:

British test of 30mm minengeschoß against spitfire mk2

https://youtu.be/ZoLLDi-M3fk

 

seems kind of one hit - one kill to me

 

 

 

Much of the structural frame is intact but too much force could separate the wing im sure. 

 

The 30mm should be a one hit kill most of the time but not always. If players expect to one hit kill because they hit the wingtip then they got another thing coming.

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38 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Some of those pics are from flak not 30mm.

 

Which?

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1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

Which?

The B-17 ones with the midsection blown apart.

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28 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

The B-17 ones with the midsection blown apart.

 

The original caption only says battle damage over Debreczen 21/9/1944 and it is additionally lacking the typical Flak shrapnel damage. Anyways still more than enough evidence that one 30mm hit should structurally kill a fighter plane.

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/7001

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We have to remember that visual damage in the sim is just that, a visual effect, the actual damage may be grossly different.

 

Also having a track showing what happened when the Spit in question was hit would be most helpful in the diagnosis of this issue.  I do know that the times I've taken hits by a 108 I was done right then and there, even in an A20.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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14 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

The original caption only says battle damage over Debreczen 21/9/1944 and it is additionally lacking the typical Flak shrapnel damage. Anyways still more than enough evidence that one 30mm hit should structurally kill a fighter plane.

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/7001

That's from flak, most likely a direct hit.

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Quote

"Much of the structural frame is intact but too much force could separate the wing im sure. "

The bottom wing skin carries a lot of load if the plane is flying.  Most of the structure there is to keep the skins apart and the right shape.  If that shot near the wing root damaged enough bottom skin the whole rear half of the wing will lift and  twist.  No idea how it would fly but it sounds like eventual if not immediate failure.

Selling point for a twin spar layout I suppose.

 

Edited by DD_Perfesser

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1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

That's from flak, most likely a direct hit.

Clicked the about image button and yes that was the result of a flak hit.

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What? Why do people think the 108 is underpowered? I've been flying in the G6 against both the Vb and the IXe and I've been taking wings [partially, or more frequently, entirely] off with a single hit.

https://streamable.com/gjumn

 

 

Edited by Dusty926

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3 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Linking Red Tails vids isn't fun anymore... 

 

I guess that's why planes have 2 wings ... just in case you lose one.

 

Spits won the war 🤣

Edited by SCG_Riksen
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8 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Linking Red Tails vids isn't fun anymore... 

<sarcasm>Tavarish, see, when you have two wings, you have too much drag, cut away your wings to fly faster! Faith in Stalin will carry you towards the victory!</sarcasm>

 

Now really, we need to repeat that test, I might to some testing with @przybysz86 when we have time, but this seems to be highly improbable. If this remains an issue, we should file a bug report.

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2 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

<sarcasm>Tavarish, see, when you have two wings, you have too much drag, cut away your wings to fly faster! Faith in Stalin will carry you towards the victory!</sarcasm>

 

Now really, we need to repeat that test, I might to some testing with @przybysz86 when we have time, but this seems to be highly improbable. If this remains an issue, we should file a bug report.

We should do other planes too, but we don't have time with Temuri to do that. Every time I saw the wing off, Temuri could fly Spit. It was usually third or 4th round. I have sent video to Jason and made separate topic about it to FM forums .ru and .com.

 

We are going to test something this evening too.

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1 hour ago, LLv34_adexu said:

We should do other planes too, but we don't have time with Temuri to do that. Every time I saw the wing off, Temuri could fly Spit. It was usually third or 4th round. I have sent video to Jason and made separate topic about it to FM forums .ru and .com.

 

We are going to test something this evening too.

 

Next time you do the test have your opponent do some maneuvers and see if he can recover. In a multiplayer situation your opponent will most likely be pulling some hard maneuvers to try and evade you, if you shoot hit wing off he'll lose all control and wont be able to recover.

 

This is just a theory and I'm interested to see if it has any effect. I think the main reason he can still fly after getting his wing shot off (not impossible irl btw) is because he's not really doing any evasive or hard maneuvers. Have him pull some g either before or after you shoot the wing off and see if that effects the outcome.

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32 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

This is just a theory and I'm interested to see if it has any effect. I think the main reason he can still fly after getting his wing shot off (not impossible irl btw) is because he's not really doing any evasive or hard maneuvers. Have him pull some g either before or after you shoot the wing off and see if that effects the outcome.

Yes, rolling is possible with wing shot off, but can't really start maneuvering.

 

IIRC, we actually did a bit of dogfighting after I had received one 30 mm to the wing (wing not cut off yet), but that's not in the video. Wing didn't come off.

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1 minute ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

Yes, rolling is possible with wing shot off, but can't really start maneuvering.

 

IIRC, we actually did a bit of dogfighting after I had received one 30 mm to the wing (wing not cut off yet), but that's not in the video. Wing didn't come off.

Well you did actually change your course to left and right.. ofc you can't maneuver like with all wings attached 😄

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2 minutes ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

Yes, rolling is possible with wing shot off, but can't really start maneuvering.

 

IIRC, we actually did a bit of dogfighting after I had received one 30 mm to the wing (wing not cut off yet), but that's not in the video. Wing didn't come off.

Thats what I mean though, in an actual fight the enemy player wont be sitting nice and level, he'll be doing everything he can to evade you, if you shoot his wing off in this situation he'll lose control and won't recover.

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1 minute ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Well you did actually change your course to left and right.. ofc you can't maneuver like with all wings attached 😄

Yes, light turns were possible.

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14 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Linking Red Tails vids isn't fun anymore... 

 

That gives the term "clipped winged Spitfire" a totally new meaning. Can you clip off both wings and test if it still flys? 😋

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3 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

That gives the term "clipped winged Spitfire" a totally new meaning. Can you clip off both wings and test if it still flys? 😋

There would be no ailerons! 

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1 minute ago, AeroAce said:

There would be no ailerons! 

 

I know, I know. But I couldn´t help myself after seeing that vid with Spit and 1,5 wings after canon hit still flying.

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10 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

That gives the term "clipped winged Spitfire" a totally new meaning. Can you clip off both wings and test if it still flys? 😋

We tried to do that, but couldn't break second wing...

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3 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

We tried to do that, but couldn't break second wing...

 

It is made out of Stalinium or Churchillinium. Now I know why the Luftwaffe lost in the Battle of Britain 😉

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On 6/7/2018 at 2:05 PM, Voidhunger said:

Wait for the Jug, MK 108 will be like 7.92mm :)

even an IL-2 is easier prey than a pe2, so you shouldnt hope for good jug :)

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1 minute ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

even an IL-2 is easier prey than a pe2, so you shouldnt hope for good jug :)

I always liked Jug... dunno why. I just like that little monster... Nothing is better than diving on 109K or Dora and putting it out of misery.. 😄 It was one reason why I bought Bodenplatte...

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52 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

That gives the term "clipped winged Spitfire" a totally new meaning. Can you clip off both wings and test if it still flys? 😋

Yeah that's pretty crazy. Looks like wonky damage modelling. This could be another case where the visual representation doesn't match how the flight model interprets it.

Whenever I lose a wing I go into an unrecoverable spin. Sometimes if I just lose the tip I can stay level with full opposite aileron and a bit of rudder. Have you run into this with anything other than the Spit IX?

EDIT: just read above comments about not having time to test, my bad. All I can say is personal experience with I-16, Mig-3 and Il-2, when I lose a wing I spin, when I lose a wingtip any maneuvering is basically impossible as I am at full opposite control surface deflection. I suspect this is an issue with the Spit IX damage/flight model.

Edited by RedKestrel

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Another Hollywood movie minute 1'35 . Can a Spitfire fly with half  wing ? The Bf109 no.

 

 

DCS answer:

 

Edited by RAY-EU

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3 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

Another Hollywood movie minute 1'35 . Can a Spitfire fly with half  wing ? The Bf109 no.

 

 

DCS answer:

 

 

It's not completely unrealistic though, it all depends on how much of the wing is destroyed. Unfortunately he damage model is rather limited so we only have a 2-3 variations in wing damage it seems.

 

Hopefully we'll get a visual update to the damage model, something similar to dover would be excellent. I'd also like to have a more in depth damage model but I think thats just a pipe dream.

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34 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

It's not completely unrealistic though, it all depends on how much of the wing is destroyed. -SNIP-

 

And how effective the ailerons are.

 

I actually think most planes in game could fly with one wing and be controllable IF they started flying in the air in that state with no roll acceleration acting on them due to the sudden lose of a wing and resultant instantaneous force shift that cause of loss of control.

 

What is strange to me about the spit when a wing comes off is it is like the force shift and the roll acceleration it should create is highly damped compared to other planes, meaning that the pilot has a chance to save it before a loss control.  

 

Other planes in game this acceleration is not damped so the pilot has no chance of preventing a loss of control after which there is no recovering which is the same for the spit as well if you lose control with one wing.

 

I have no ideal if this is a real life quality of the spit or a "bug" but that is my theory but It kinda make sence as the spit has a much lower roll rate to somthing like a 190 which will be more vulnerable to a quicker loss of control. 

 

Also the spit loses about 2/3s of its wing leaving it with a bit of surface where as a lot the German plane lose their wings at the root.

 

 

Edited by AeroAce

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We tested SpitV too. It doesn't fly w/o wing.  But it needs also around 3 hits. 1 hit = wing off is more common tho, than SpitIX.

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