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E69_geramos109

Yak series Dive and high speed behabeour too good?

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What I see is that the Yak has absolutley no problem recovering with high G pull outs at speeds around or slightly above 750 kph. You start loosing controll surfaces at just around 750 to 800 kph, while doing a high g pull out. I am not really sure what would support OPs point more when the manual states that you should be careful starting at slightly above 600 kph and never exceed 650, I would imagine that the effect observed in game should come on a lot earlier, since you were anything but easy on the controls. So not only have you exceeded vne by 150 kph but also you did a high g maneuver. If you do not start loosing parts then, I don´t know when you should.

Edited by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

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As you can see Sherif nothing of what manual sais happens on your test for the yak and remember that the manual is warning about speeds of 600 kph while on your test you are over the limit gived by the game (720) on all dives. Even you managed to recover without loosing things at 750. On the other hand with the 109 you make the recover at even less speed that you are testing on the yak and a lot of times on a less angle of diving. 

Are you preajusting the tim also during the dive?

 

I also remember you that the 109 has THS Trimable Horizontal Stabilizer and that means that all the Stab is movivle while on the yak is only the movible part of the stab wich is movible. The THS shoud have way better response and authority than the standar trim system used by yaks. 

Edited by E69_geramos109

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9 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

In short, if there is something specific wrong with the Yak please prove it with tests. I know this is difficult given the scarcity of real data, but it is the only way you will make changes. 

 

Obviously you have not read the Yak´s manual quoted by Geramos109 in the first post. ..  Only with a sort fly in Berloga server, a populated day, you can see how the Yak´s challenge the physical laws, not need more tests.

 

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While its true that I wasnt easy on the controls, I just want to prove that the Yak has its draw backs. Others, not nessesarly geramos were claiming that there are none.
The Speeds where I pulled up with the 109 were at similar speeds geramos. I of course used the trim in the 109 like I would use it in an actual combat scenario. I have to push the stick activly down to hold the dive, like it was recommended in RL.
That gives you a lot of elevator response even on high speeds. For evasions, pull outs etc. But in the video I used other trims as well. (6:17)

I was varying the dive angles and the speeds where I pulled out purposefully. I dont think I went easy on the 109.
from 720kph on its very dependent of dive angle and forces on the stick if you lose parts.
Never exceed speeds are not a brick wall where you start to lose parts, they are speeds where it is guaranteed that nothing breaks. 

 

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I have indeed read that manual, and I have also read the Stepanets long document on flying the Yak.  http://www.airpages.ru/dc/doc100.shtml

 

The extra 100kph or so over the manual limits have been explained by Han previously as being a normal safety margin - it is not just the Yak, the same is true of the 109s. 

 

I have been flying flight sims too long to take MP on their own anecdotes seriously. But as I have said elsewhere, what I believe does not matter - if you want to convince the developers that there is something wrong you have to make your case analytically. 

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Yes, it is exactly these safety margins and the way the plane behaves after these safety margins are exceeded is what is challenged as being unresonable due to what the manual says. Additionally I believe it wasn’t safety margins but pilot accounts that lead to these adjustments. This frequently gets confused with the durability margins for the DM which are actually numerically documented.

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What I saw was that the Yak can dive at up to 700 in a 45 degree dive with safety as it will come out before reaching 750.   If you dive steeply to 700 then try pulling out then the speed will reach 800 before you go level at which point you will have lost ailerons , elevators & rudder or in one case it seems he lost the whole wing.   A shallow dive  will allow you to reach 750 and survive but only if you never exceed 750  and pull out very gently.  Control surfaces start coming off at anything over 750.   

 

The 109 dived steeply at 700 with ease and pulled out into a steep climb with no ill effects.  In the last two dives it reached 750 before pulling out and still took no damage despite pulling out straight into a steep climb.    I know which one I would rather be diving in!   

 

It looks as if part of the problem the Yak has is that it keeps picking up speed during the pullout until it begins to break up while the 109 appears to have more drag so struggles to even reach the speed that kills Yaks.   I don't know what the actual structural failure speed is for a real Yak-1 as we only have the manual for the Yak-3 which was constructed differently.  Setting the 'in-game' VNE at 720 seems about right to me if it starts coming apart at 750.   

 

BTW,  one misconception seems to be creeping in and becoming 'fact' and that is 'using trim to pull out of a dive'.    109 stab trim was used to make it easier to stay in the  dive as the 109 has a nose up tendency even in level flight.  Trimming to get out of the dive was just putting the trim back to 'normal' and in real life pilots were advised not to trim for the dive in the first place as it made it very hard to pull out and many spit pilots reported using dives as a tactic to make 109s crash into the sea.   Tests on the first captured 109 concluded that the trim became impossible to adjust at speeds over 350!   OK tests on captured aircraft are never definitive but it does indicate that trimming at 700 may not have been possible in real life.   The CAA rating on current airshow 109s warns against even attempting to trim at speeds over 250 kts.

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My own experience of Yak flying very much agrees with your point about how quickly it accelerates - once you have reached 600kph you can get up to 700 in a heartbeat and you are perilously close to the limits: you really do have to be careful and start to exit the dive early. 

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5 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

Yes, it is exactly these safety margins and the way the plane behaves after these safety margins are exceeded is what is challenged as being unresonable due to what the manual says. Additionally I believe it wasn’t safety margins but pilot accounts that lead to these adjustments. This frequently gets confused with the durability margins for the DM which are actually numerically documented.

 

The safety margins were proven by flight tests, this has been said time and again by Dev's and yet you still always bring up 'pilot accounts'

 

true it was pilot accounts..in the form of proper flight tests that the Devs have records of

 

German aircraft have 100kmh leeway, Russian 50kmh leeway above known limits...bias?

 

the comparative effectiveness of elevators on 109 and Yaks have also been discussed by Devs in first sticky (FM claims respond/ 4.) in this section and reasons explained for 'apparent differences' and reasons why Yak 'seems' to be able to pull high G moves with no 'harmful effect'

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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The dive speed of Yaks is more or less accurate, representative for well-made aircraft.

A lot of evil is done by the "reset trim button":

  • in Yak you can fly with ~minus 60% trim, then after one click "reset trim" you will be trimmed at 0% and have easy time recovering from the dive. Having this unrealistic ability which real Yak pilot didn't have you can dive far more aggressively.
  • in Bf-109 you fly with ~minus 60% trim, then you need to exert constant pressure and you have your hand out of action when in Yak you have free hand.

 

In real life - as other mentioned - in both cases pilot trimmed an airplane before dive becasuse IRL in both planes pilot had to manually rotate the wheel inside the cockpit and it could be too late doing that during the dive. IRL there was no "reset trim" button.

In the game Bf-109 have this modeled accurately and BF109 pilot has to care about real limitations when Yak pilot - he doesn't have to. He has "reset trim button".

That's one of main reasons of unbalanced dive capabilities between Yak and Bf-109 in the game.

 

That's why "reset trim" button causes that in the game we do not use real tactics.

And it is available just to some planes, arbitrarily.

 

cheers and have a nice day:salute:

Edited by bies
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3 minutes ago, bies said:

 

And it is available just to some planes, arbitrarily.

 

 

 

No not arbitrarily, please stop the hard done by bias BS

 

It is not present on 109, 190 and 202 because they use a completely different system with horizontal stab and not trim, every single other aircraft which has trim has reset button

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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41 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

true it was pilot accounts..in the form of proper flight tests that the Devs have records of

 

German aircraft have 100kmh leeway, Russian 50kmh leeway above known limits...bias?

 

Apart from this being wrong - AFAIK Russian planes get 100-150 kph leeway (lagg-3 150 yak1 around 100), 109 gets 100kph and no, there were no proper flight test as far as the Russian planes are concerned - the fact that you are the one thinking that anyone claims bias, shows your entire defensive mindset in regards to every discussion, with the agenda being: Every criticism = people claiming bias. Add to that your condescending tone and melting point of a snowflake when you are yourself confronted with it and you end up with your popularity on the forum except for the rest of your yes men crew.

Edited by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn
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12 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

 

It is not present on 109, 190 and 202 because they use a completely different system with horizontal stab and not trim, every single other aircraft which has trim has reset button

Imput to this system was just identidal.

In both planes Bf-109 or Yak - regardless of the shape of moving part - pilot had to rotate the wheel inside the cockpit using his left hand.

 

I am glad that the developers so carefully reproduced the work of various mechanisms for trimming aircraft (which is great), but by adding "reset button" they negated their own work.

And even more - they added "reset button" only to some planes.

In real life it was far easier and faster to "reset" the trim in FW190 with electrical system and clock indicator of the position of the stabilizer - than in Yak with simple rotating wheel without an indicator.

In the game this exemplary Yak have "reset button" when FW190 no.

 

cheers:salute:

Edited by bies

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19 minutes ago, bies said:

The dive speed of Yaks is more or less accurate, representative for well-made aircraft.

A lot of evil is done by the "reset trim button":

  • in Yak you can fly with ~minus 60% trim, then after one click "reset trim" you will be trimmed at 0% and have easy time recovering from the dive. Having this unrealistic ability which real Yak pilot didn't have you can dive far more aggressively.
  • in Bf-109 you fly with ~minus 60% trim, then you need to exert constant pressure and you have your hand out of action when in Yak you have free hand.

 

 

You do realize, I hope, that when you press the reset trim button in the Yak the trim wheel moves back to the runway setting at the normal speed as if you were holding down the regular trim button - there is no instantaneous reset. So the aircraft's physical performance is exactly as it would be if the mechanism were the same as the variable stab in the 109.   But you do have your left hand free for an extra two seconds... I wonder what the Yak pilots are doing with their left hand for two seconds that gives them such a big advantage....

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8 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

You do realize, I hope, that when you press the reset trim button in the Yak the trim wheel moves back to the runway setting at the normal speed as if you were holding down the regular trim button

Of course!

The problem/exploit/cheat/unequal treatment - you name it - is in BF-109 you need to exert constant pressure and you have your hand out of action when in Yak you have free hand after one click.   In real life both pilots had to exert constant pressure and they had their hand out of action for some time.

 

The difference in speed of different mechanisms is allready modeled very good in the game.

 

cheers:salute:

Edited by bies

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23 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Apart from this being wrong - AFAIK Russian planes get 100-150 kph leeway (lagg-3 150 yak1 around 100), 109 gets 100kph and no, there were no proper flight test as far as the Russian planes are concerned - the fact that you are the one thinking that anyone claims bias, shows your entire defensive mindset in regards to every discussion, with the agenda being: Every criticism = people claiming bias. Add to that your condescending tone and melting point of a snowflake when you are yourself confronted with it and you end up with your popularity on the forum except for the rest of your yes men crew.

 

As I said, leeway above tested speeds not a handbook VNE, see Dev notes

 

Dev's say they have reports of the flight tests, who is wrong? there are many many detailed flight tests from multiple Russian aviation institutions on record, see examples of La5FN discussion and input from Dev's

 

To state that there were no proper flight tests of Russian planes just shows your ignorance of the period and history, or a preconceived mindset

 

why do you always have to resort to personal attacks/insults?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot
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bies : OK - just wanted to be clear on this, because TBH I am having trouble seeing how having your left hand free for an extra two seconds at the bottom of a dive in a flightsim is a big advantage, given that we have established that it makes no difference to the physical behaviour of the aircraft.

 

  Seriously, what are you doing with it? I cannot think of anything that you could be doing that would make your plane pull up faster, for instance: you cannot use it to increase tail heavy trim because the trim wheel is still moving just as it would do if you had to keep your hand on the button.

Edited by unreasonable
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11 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

bies : OK - just wanted to be clear on this, because TBH I am having trouble seeing how having your left hand free for an extra two seconds at the bottom of a dive in a flightsim is a big advantage, given that we have established that it makes no difference to the physical behaviour of the aircraft.

 

  Seriously, what are you doing with it? I cannot think of anything that you could be doing that would make your plane pull up faster, for instance: you cannot use it to increase tail heavy trim because the trim wheel is still moving just as it would do if you had to keep your hand on the button.

2-3 additional seconds during the dogfight is a huge amount of time.

 

Depending if you have "reset button" or not you can in exemplary Yak/La-5 / can't in exemplary Bf-109:

lower/raise the flaps,

open/close radiator,

increase/decrease RPM,

increase decrease Throttle

opec/close the canopy

move the head (if you don't have Track)

change for manual/automatic RPM or radiator control

push the radio button

drop the bomb/fire the rockets

 

and many other things...

The time you are using that hard trim changes during the dogfight is in most casesespecially tight.

 

What is more the time is not only resource - you are compromising your focus - you are far more likely to miss if you are moving the wheel. 

It is just huge advantage and if both pilots in real life had to do the same (rotate the wheel) why one have to do what it would do IRL and the other not, just like - not.

 

If you have "reset button" in Bf-109 you would dive far more aggressively knowing you just need to click one button to recover for safety.

 

I'm mostly red/allied pilot but some things are just simple.

 

cheers

Edited by bies

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ok, that discussion is going a weird way. I know of no pilot who uses that reset. Heard of it the first time btw. Great.

I thought its about the yaks max speed and pull out and stuff. But now its a ingame mechanics discussion. k

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Yes, two threads have somehow ended up in a state of entanglement. It had to happen in some possible world.

 

Sorry bies, I think you are just wrong so we will have to agree to disagree on this: if I wanted to trim tail heavy, I would not want to have to press one button to get to neutral and then find another button to continue changing the trim setting. That is actually a disadvantage. As for the other stuff: air combat is not a frantic twitch based FPS - you are much better off following Hartmann's advice, see, act, coffee break or whatever his formulation was. 

 

As to the specific question of Yak behaviour in dives: well I ask for data and only DerSheriff provides any, and nothing seems untoward there, so yet again it is hard to see the basis for the complaints.

 

  

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12 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Sorry bies, I think you are just wrong so we will have to agree to disagree on this: if I wanted to trim tail heavy, I would not want to have to press one button to get to neutral and then find another button to continue changing the trim setting. That is actually a disadvantage.

 

I'm - unfortunately - addicted to "reset trim button", especially in Yak's and La-5's.

 

During the flight i have ~-50% trim (stable), when i want to recover from steep dive or enter the turn fight i just click "reset trim" button and i'm automatically tail heavy, without any additional imput and with left hand free all the time.

If i'm the only one using that there is no problem, but it is in contrast with realistically modelled German planes trims, in which you have to exert the pressure like real pilot had to.

 

In SP i don't use "reset button" - because of immersion, but in MP i had to, i just want to increase my chances to win...

 

I would like both sides to have realistically modeled trimmer imput - like Gerrman planes - without unrealistic shortcuts like "reset button". But if i'm the only one using that - looks like there is no problem.

 

cheers:salute:

Edited by bies

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Russian planes are already more "labour intensive" to keep operating at optimum parameters, maybe devs thought that giving them trim-reset-button would even things up a little ? Than again maybe not because apparently BF-110 also has the same reset system.

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45 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

Russian planes are already more "labour intensive" to keep operating at optimum parameters,

 

Wut ? Leaving everything at 100% is "labour intensive" now ? :wacko:

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2 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

Russian planes are already more "labour intensive" to keep operating at optimum parameters

In real life - yes. In the game - no.

From Yak manual, the list of activities to perform before dive:

1) Keeping your oil pressure during initial phase

2) Closing oil radiators

3) Closing water radiators

4) Slowing RPM

5) Reducing throttle

5) now dive

 

In the game you don't have to care of any of that except - depends on how long you are going to dive - reducing throttle.

1) Engine power output decrease during negative G maneuvers in i.e. I-16 is modelled but decreasing oil pressure in Yaks is always in norm( against Yak manual).

2) You can over cool engine in the dive easily in P-40 or I-16, but in Yaks - against real manual - it is practically impossible.

3) the same as above

4) The most mysterious thing: you fly Yak straight with max RPM allowed, then you dive sharply, accelaretion is immense, the whole mass ot the aircraft is pushing the propeller (prop pirch changing mechanism is realistically very slow after last patch - bravo for the developers).

So how this very slow mechanism is compensating rapid RPM increase and prevents over revolving the engine? (and why real Yak manual states you are decreasing RPM before dive?)

I'll test that today and try different configurations.

I.e. in P-40 you are going to over revolve and destroy the engine immidiately in a aharp dive if you didn't reduce RMP (like in Yak's manual).

Even in BF109 you you can over revolve the engine diving...

 

I personally, would like to fly Soviet planes even more if you would have to act as manual states. Not simply open full throttle nad max RPM and forget about everything else.

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8 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I dont know mate how much evidence some of the guys need to see that something is wrong.

 

More than the zero provided so far I'm betting.

 

Between anecdotes and quotes that don't really seem to support points being made, it seems like there is very little evidence to go around.

Edited by Windmills
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44 minutes ago, Windmills said:

 

More than the zero provided so far I'm betting.

 

Between anecdotes and quotes that don't really seem to support points being made, it seems like there is very little evidence to go around.

Of so you think the manual of the yak and pilot first hand testimoy are just no facts and anecdotic staff. No more discussion with you here. 

 

There is a topic appart talking about the Yak exploit with the trim so lets keep on the matter here.

2 hours ago, DerSheriff said:

ok, that discussion is going a weird way. I know of no pilot who uses that reset. Heard of it the first time btw. Great.

I thought its about the yaks max speed and pull out and stuff. But now its a ingame mechanics discussion. k

 Problem is not with the limits of the speed on the dive. Is know that is over what manual said for both parts. Is more the way to exit on that kid of dives and what maual sais is not that we have here. As on the 109 is close, on the yak isnt and where you have a hight inestability of the plane pulling hard the stick to exit at 600kph here you maybe have some trouble over 720 and is more about not exceding the speed not becuase incontrolability of the plane. See on the manual of the yak 3 and you can see that on a high angle of diving the speed is even more restricted. Also that you can pull  hard the stick and nothing happens is wrong.

 

I just uploaded a video where i lost all ailerons and the plane was perfectly trimed on the roll very easy to control so that shows how wrong the Fm is on the yak.

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36 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Yak exploit

 

As opposed to this very neutral and clearly 'interested in discussion' language you are using. Sure buddy.

 

And a quote from a forum that I can't even find by googling it, plus a quote from the manual that proves what exactly? That you are supposed to be gentle when pulling out of dives and that there are some complex aerodynamic phenomenon that aren't modelled in a videogame? This is a big revelation somehow?

 

Edited by Windmills
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Germanos, did you even bother to read this topic? I know it's not about the Yak, but really, you could save yourself a lot of time (and typing) by reading @Han's reply:

 

Flutter IAS on LaGG-3 is 750 while in manual max IAS is listed as 600 km/h. It's 150 km/h reserve. While Bf-109 have only 70 km/h reserve.
Actualy, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems. So, we have set Flutter start at 750km/h IAS, +50 km/h to fastests known limit.
Bf-109 have data on dive flight test on 900 km/h TAS at 5800m, it is 637 km/h IAS. Also, there is 750 km/h IAS listed as limit for it. So, our Bf-109 have 850km/h IAS as Flutter start speed, +100 km/h to fastest known limit.

 

 

Edited by LukeFF
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9 hours ago, unreasonable said:

The extra 100kph or so over the manual limits have been explained by Han previously as being a normal safety margin - it is not just the Yak, the same is true of the 109s. 

This 100km / h critical speed margin favors yak more than bf109. bf 109 needed more altitude and more diving time to reach the yak's critical speed

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9 hours ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Apart from this being wrong - AFAIK Russian planes get 100-150 kph leeway (lagg-3 150 yak1 around 100), 109 gets 100kph and no, there were no proper flight test as far as the Russian planes are concerned - the fact that you are the one thinking that anyone claims bias, shows your entire defensive mindset in regards to every discussion, with the agenda being: Every criticism = people claiming bias. Add to that your condescending tone and melting point of a snowflake when you are yourself confronted with it and you end up with your popularity on the forum except for the rest of your yes men crew.

 

Lagg is only 50+ , not 150+, from Hans post, so your wrong there :D

 

17 minutes ago, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

This 100km / h critical speed margin favors yak more than bf109. bf 109 needed more altitude and more diving time to reach the yak's critical speed

how so, why it should not be eaqual for all, why yak less 109 more?

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3 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

how so, why it should not be eaqual for all, why yak less 109 more?

English is not my native language. I'll try to explain better.
  Example: If the critical speed of a yak was 650km / h instead of 750km / h. In a dive with bf109 I need 1000 meters to reach 650km / h and 1700metros to reach 750km / h. This is the disadvantage of bf109. He needs to dive longer and lose more altitude to be able to reach the critical speed of 750km / h that the yak owns.

sorry, I use google translate

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Germanos, did you even bother to read this topic? I know it's not about the Yak, but really, you could save yourself a lot of time (and typing) by reading @Han's reply:

 

Flutter IAS on LaGG-3 is 750 while in manual max IAS is listed as 600 km/h. It's 150 km/h reserve. While Bf-109 have only 70 km/h reserve.
Actualy, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems. So, we have set Flutter start at 750km/h IAS, +50 km/h to fastests known limit.
Bf-109 have data on dive flight test on 900 km/h TAS at 5800m, it is 637 km/h IAS. Also, there is 750 km/h IAS listed as limit for it. So, our Bf-109 have 850km/h IAS as Flutter start speed, +100 km/h to fastest known limit.

 

 

Can you plaease read the topic again?and all the ansers i gave talking about that the matter of the topic is not the speed limit. Is the way to recover, the management of the dives and the behabeour on the plane at hight speeds where is not behabing as manual and pilot reported. Also as you said a lagg was other plane and was known because the overdimensions and overweight of the structure so no surprise that can dive better than yak.

Edited by E69_geramos109

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12 minutes ago, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

English is not my native language. I'll try to explain better.
  Example: If the critical speed of a yak was 650km / h instead of 750km / h. In a dive with bf109 I need 1000 meters to reach 650km / h and 1700metros to reach 750km / h. This is the disadvantage of bf109. He needs to dive longer and lose more altitude to be able to reach the critical speed of 750km / h that the yak owns.

sorry, I use google translate

 

Undestand it better now, yes i think thats ok then, if criticalspeed is bigger on one airplane, then aditional margin could be bigger on it also, and on airplane with less limit for critical speed aditional margine could be less, also probably strenght of construction of airplane should have some impact on it.

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5 hours ago, Windmills said:

 

As opposed to this very neutral and clearly 'interested in discussion' language you are using. Sure buddy.

 

And a quote from a forum that I can't even find by googling it, plus a quote from the manual that proves what exactly? That you are supposed to be gentle when pulling out of dives and that there are some complex aerodynamic phenomenon that aren't modelled in a videogame? This is a big revelation somehow?

 

Mate is what it is. Is a game mecanic wich a lot of pilots are currently using as a EXPLOIT. There is other topic talking about that so dont come here trying to take credibility of what i post because my language defining a wrong game mechanic.

I woul like to see how devs Bann also this behabeour when someone just complains without arguing nothing usefull only caalling everybody luftwinner and not only when someone sais something about red planes with no proofs. 

 

Ok so for you the manual is just rabish made by an idiot who didnt know what he wss talking about and the warnings for the pilots were just to make them die on the battlefield. Your argument is just idiotic. 

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16 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Undestand it better now, yes i think thats ok then, if criticalspeed is bigger on one airplane, then aditional margin could be bigger on it also, and on airplane with less limit for critical speed aditional margine could be less, also probably strenght of construction of airplane should have some impact on it.

Also, I wanted to point out that when a yak goes behind a bf109 in a dive, the yak manages to stay longer than bf 109 because his critical speed is 750km / h and not 650km / h.

Edited by 3./JG15_Kampf

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Dive speed limit should be a toppic appart but to adf If the 109 was able to dive faster than on the manual was becuase THS. And not on a normal situation. Was not a joke to do it was dangerous  and the plane needed to recover with care and no just as a normal dive at 700. That phenomenom was happening ( as manual descrives clearly with no missinterpretation) on a speed between 600-650 and the yak has no THS to recover a bigger dive even if the plane can resist bigger speed it can not recover as a 109 without THS . Is not even close so to exeed the manual dive limit on a big angle of diving was fatal and that is why  pilots were not even trying to follow germans on the dive for attacking or for escaping.

 

Also to take more speed you need more angle of diving so yaks take more advantage taking a softer angle of diving behind you to cut your trayectory once you level the plane.

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I did read, that 109g2 or g6 has been recovered many times over 900kph ias dive using stabilizer. Im sure many more have not, but its the same in both sides. Extremes are dangerous everywhere.

 

Now the anecdotal evidence, that 109 control heaviness (whitch doesnt very accurately telling its relative heaviness compared to other planes. But it sure is now modeled in 109. And its good. Same logic, and this: Dont do sharp moves in Yak above 600kph would be reasonable to add too. I dont see any difference.

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In regards to the dive speed limits, for what I could test, in game the Fw 190 and the Bf 109 start to lose control surfaces at around 870 km/h IAS, the P-40 at around 900 km/h IAS. I think for the Yak it's around 750 km/h.


Is there any way to calculate this with structural simulations? Otherwise I suppose it would be hard to find which should be the exact limit for each plane, unless there are documented cases of accidents in which these structural failures happened. If I remember correctly in this forum it was posted that for the A6M there was one case of a test pilot diving to 700 km/h but the wing lost it's skin and crashed, killing the pilot in the process sadly.

Maybe they could decrease the safety margin to say a compromise of 700 km/h to the Soviet planes and 800 km/h to the German/US planes?
 

About the RPM behaviour at high speeds, the 109E doesn't overrev in the dive as the later variants, because the propeller can be adjusted to a coarser pitch. With the 109 F/G the highest pitch the propeller can have is the 8:30 position, the finest pitch being 12:30 (in a clockwise direction when going from coarse to fine), so a 4:00 difference. In the Emil the propeller can go down to 3:00, a 9:30 difference from the fine 12:30 position. At the 3:00 position the prop is feathered. At the very limit of it's dive speed, 870 km/h IAS the propeller pitch sits at around 7:50 in the Emil, mantaining the RPM.

In the Yak-1 s69 the propeller overrevs to 2800 RPM at 860 km/h IAS, but at that point you already lost your control surfaces so you are done anyway.

At altitude in the MiG-3 you can kill the engine by overreving if with 100% mixture you slam the throttle to 100% from idle, making the RPM jumping up to 2500 RPM before the governor can bring them down and the engine seizes (rated RPM are 2050). Diving with the MiG it starts to overrev at 700 km/h IAS (2150 RPM)  at 870 km/h it gets up to 2300 RPM, the engine doesn't get damaged (needs to go past 2500 like when slamming the throttle), the control surfaces are gone by this point.

At 6000 meters I could get the Yak-1s69 to spike up to 2900 RPM in a sudden throttle slam with full RPM, the engine didn't take damage.

About the stick forces Sheriff posted this chart in his Discord, from the DCS forums some time ago, showing the differences in how much force you had to apply to move the stick of the plane, in Kg per cm, so there is hard data about stick forces, but you need to take into account how each elevator system is designed (1 cm in one plane might pull up more than the same stick displacement in a different plane).

attachment.png

I'm not so sure about the THS being indispensable to recover from a high speed dive though, other fast diving planes like the American ones have conventional elevator trims and afaik they didn't have much trouble as long as they kept within their limits which also were high, for example in the P-40 manual, the dive speed limit is 480 mph IAS (770 km/h), and it's indicated that the pilot should use the aileron and rudder trim to stabilize the plane during the dive, so the trim tabs retain some effectiveness at these high speeds (at least the P-40 ones).

 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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3 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

In regards to the dive speed limits, for what I could test, in game the Fw 190 and the Bf 109 start to lose control surfaces at around 870 km/h IAS, the P-40 at around 900 km/h IAS. I think for the Yak it's around 750 km/h.


<snip>

Maybe they could decrease the safety margin to say a compromise of 700 km/h to the Soviet planes and 800 km/h to the German/US planes?

<snip>

 

That suggestion would probably go down like a lead balloon - currently the lose control surface speeds of 870 and 750 are 120 kph apart: you suggest reducing this to 100kph: an obvious 109 nerf! ;)

 

What I would like to hear from the OP and others is what specific data changes to the FM they think should be made and why.

 

So far the discussion is very general along the lines that "The Yaks are too good compared to what the manual says", but this will get nowhere with the developers, although some people obviously like to vent. But I cannot help feeling that this topic will never go away as long as some 109 fliers get caught by Yaks in a dive. Please forgive my cynicism.

 

 

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