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BlackSix

AI A-20B for the BOBP career

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I've an idea to add AI A-20B in the future BOBP career.

 

1) First of all, please help me to check this info about A-20 squadrons

 

2nd TAF, No. 2 Group, 137 Wing:

 

No. 88 Squadron - Boston IIIA

Oct 17, 1944 - Apr 01, 1945 - Vitry-en-Artois (B-50)

Apr 01, 1945 - Disbaned

 

No. 342 Squadron (Free French) - Boston IIIA, IV; on March 1945 - Mitchell II

Oct 17, 1944 - Apr 22, 1945 - Vitry-en-Artois (B-50)

Apr 22, 1945 - Gilze Rijen (B-77)

 

2) Vitry-en-Artois airfield is out of our map borders. What do you think if we'll put these 2 squadrons at St. Denis Westrem (B-61) or Melsbroek (B-58, where Mitchell IIs was based) and use them as AI units?

02-2nd-TAF-Sep-Dec-1944.thumb.jpg.11baabdf065908262206cdd5c20b1cb2.jpg

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Until AI B 25 arrive I find that suggestion very interesting. All though #88 has a interesting history and was the UK squadron that flew most Boston operations . Other than they flew Tactical bombing during their time in France. Using the base most to the west would make  sense. I believe I read a book about them years back. They flew Battles , Blenheims and then Bostons. First unit that converted to the type. Loss rate was high on the brief Blenheim period like all daylight operations in 1940 performed with Blenheim. The book I read was called something with Blenheim

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I like diversity in missions so I have no objection with this compromise. Specially considering all other limitations we have to live with anyway.

 

Is it also an option to have the A20s spawn in the air at mission start to simulate that they come from a distant airfield?

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To be honest, that is probably along the lines that mission and campaign designers are already thinking. I give the idea a big thumbs up. At the end of the day we often end up making compromises regarding exact plane types or exact bases even when trying to produce accurate campaigns. I don't see this as any different.

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Black Six, I think this is a fair compromise. Hopefully the team could add a couple of new skins to the batch with RAF and 324 Squadrons Free French markings.

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Your data about A-20 squadrons locations is correct.
If they are ment to be only AI in campaign then if its easeyer yust have them to spawn in air and despawn in air in map edge close to direction where B-50 is suposed to be, this is what i usealy do with squadrons that are located on bases outside of map area.
B-61 was all Spitfire squadron base from what i see (correct me if there was any bombers there), so maybe just use for both no.88 and no.342 same B-58 airbase as at time of BoBp from what i can see it had Mosquitos, Wellingtons and Mitchells squadrons, so its better fit for A-20s. 
To me best option is just to use B-58 as you can then later have easy option to alow players to fly A-20s from Kuban in BoBp campaign also without big aditional changes to campaign if you just decide to have them air spawned/despawned from start.

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If the A-20 will be AI, if players own BOK can we expect therefore to have a human A-20 as well or am I missing something obvious? This might appease the bomber guys as well.

 

EDIT: Sorry on mobile and just read post above.

Edited by Haza

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Please do so - I see there are a lot of problems to place strategic bombers in the IL2-BoX, but please give us tactical bombers, transports and recon-planes at least.

 

  There always has been a shift in public perception of the tactical air war. Mostly because of the strong ego given to fighter pilots and their overwhelming (self-)presentation in the media. The (TAF-) medium bombers had the same importances all the time, flew sorties day by day against bridges, railroad stations and troop concentrations. Anyhow, the aspect of today's "air interdiction" or "deep air support" done by the western allies can nicely be simulated in IL2-BoX. Flying solo in a medium bomber career or by setting up a series of virtual squadron (coop-) events.

Another aspect: expand that map a few dozen miles to the north and the 2nd TAF Bostons are able to fly a bridge too far until Arnhem. What they did, often, as soon as the weather allowed them to do so. Would be a nice (third party?) add-on with relatively low expenditure!

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I would go further and say use that same idea for player controlled aircraft in career.;)

 

Campaign/mission builders have always used what was available in game, old IL-2 certainly, to create what was relevant, given that your team can only provide a specific area for the map dimensions there is no reason to think most players would object to a certain artistic license.

 

The type was certainly numerous in the theater overall, had been involved from its acceptance into RAF units that made cross channel sweeps into occupied Europe, using bases on the map would not be so removed as to be historically incorrect shall we say.  I think it could be added to career and come under the tag of if you cannot accept something completely accurate to official history then do not select it for yourself  but have it there for those of us who can accept the compromise due to limitations with the overall size of the map.

 

Just my thoughts for what they are worth, overall playability should be paramount, compromises have already been numerous in development so far, aircraft in certain battles have already been included at the expense of more historically correct types, the new map itself for technical reasons will not be completely historically accurate either, a change of base to put a squadron closer to where it actually was is no big deal for me or I guess most of the player base.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

 

 

Edited by Missionbug
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It would be extremely welcome to see French A-20s in BoBP! I can't agree more with what others have said, small compromises with regard to the exact airbase and the exact type of aircraft are perfectly welcome when they enhance the overall game experience in my view.

 

I would even love to see the French Bostons be playable, though this would require new 'western' bomb load option. Which I hope would not be too much work.

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Ok, thanks for your advices. So, I've taken decision to put 137 Wing at Melsbroek (B-58) there were based other RAF bombers:

 

No. 88 Squadron RAF (Boston III) - Oct 17, 1944 - Apr 01, 1945 - Melsbroek (B-58)

No. 226 Squadron RAF (Mitchell II) - Oct 17, 1944 - Apr 22, 1945 - Melsbroek (B-58)
No. 342 (Free French) Squadron RAF (Boston III) - Oct 17, 1944 - Apr 22, 1945 - Melsbroek (B-58)

 

Quote

If they are ment to be only AI in campaign then if its easeyer yust have them to spawn in air and despawn in air in map edge close to direction where B-50 is suposed to be, this is what i usealy do with squadrons that are located on bases outside of map area.

This is much more difficult to do than to designate an airfield for them.

 

 

On 20.05.2018 at 4:33 PM, Haza said:

If the A-20 will be AI, if players own BOK can we expect therefore to have a human A-20 as well or am I missing something obvious? This might appease the bomber guys as well.

Our A-20B from BOK and RAF Boston III had some differences, so it will be AI units only.

 

23 hours ago, 216th_Retnek said:

Please do so - I see there are a lot of problems to place strategic bombers in the IL2-BoX, but please give us tactical bombers, transports and recon-planes at least.

 

  There always has been a shift in public perception of the tactical air war. Mostly because of the strong ego given to fighter pilots and their overwhelming (self-)presentation in the media. The (TAF-) medium bombers had the same importances all the time, flew sorties day by day against bridges, railroad stations and troop concentrations. Anyhow, the aspect of today's "air interdiction" or "deep air support" done by the western allies can nicely be simulated in IL2-BoX. Flying solo in a medium bomber career or by setting up a series of virtual squadron (coop-) events.

Another aspect: expand that map a few dozen miles to the north and the 2nd TAF Bostons are able to fly a bridge too far until Arnhem. What they did, often, as soon as the weather allowed them to do so. Would be a nice (third party?) add-on with relatively low expenditure!

Please, don't ask me such things here, I'm a mission designer and historical consultant, not a Project manager :)

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50 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

Our A-20B from BOK and RAF Boston III had some differences, so it will be AI units only.

 

It would have been awesome to have it as a player aircraft, as it would have been a good level bomber, but it's already great to have it as AI. It should give some nice variety to bomber escort mission :). 

 

As a similar question, do you plan to have the P38 "droop snoot" playable in the campaign (if this mod is planned for BoBp) ? Many thanks :).

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I can't answer now but I'm not sure we'll do it as "droop snoot" looks like quite complex and time-consuming modification :unsure:

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34 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

I can't answer now but I'm not sure we'll do it as "droop snoot" looks like quite complex and time-consuming modification :unsure:

 

At least it's not out of the question then :). It would be a very good and historical (as it was i think used by the 9th AF on the continent) way to add a level bomber to BoBp line-up :), however I do understand the constraints.

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As much as I agree with the decision made here I think this also calls for an enhancement of the campaign system itself and a different policy with regards to official skins for the aircraft that will come with BoBP. Simply put I think adding such a type (that is already in-game) to a campaign without the nation whose insignia the current default skin contains (USSR) would look weird and be a sore in the campaign for BoBP. Which means we will need a system that allows to specify a texture (skin) for an aircraft if flown by a certain unit. To enhance such a system it would be certainly much more sensible not to bring yet another set of "Ace Skins" but generic skins with the specific tactical markings of the units involved (i.e. the Reich Defense tailbands for the german units, the specific colour markings for US units or - as in this case - specific textures with the correct Insignia for the RAF and Free French Forces). To translate that into real life terms we would not get for example a texture of Hans Dortenmann's D-9 but one without an aircraft number for his time with III./JG 54 (without the blue tailband) and one with JG 26's black-white tailband. Or not a P-51 "Cripes A'Mighty" by Major Preddy but a P-51 with 352nd FG's distinctive blue markings (but no tactical Code except for the national Insignia).

 

 

I know you're not the one doing that, BlackSix, but I think addressing it here is putting the wish for such a system into a context that makes it even more understandable.

Edited by csThor
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Do agree on the need to have proper generic skins for the A-20's appearance in Bodenplatte. It's going to look very odd otherwise.

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4 hours ago, BlackSix said:

 

Our A-20B from BOK and RAF Boston III had some differences, so it will be AI units only.

 

 

 

 

I understand the way you have decide to go on this, however, it seems a shame that your development team could not add the changes and actually give the allied side a twin engine bomber for player use in this theater.

 

Anyway, it is what it is.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

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47 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

We could use the A 20 can't we? 

 

It doesn't seems so at least for some time unfortunately... Maybe things will change when the B-25 will pass from AI only to fly-able.

 

8 hours ago, BlackSix said:

Our A-20B from BOK and RAF Boston III had some differences, so it will be AI units only

 

From a swift (and uninformed) check the only differences are the frontal glass shape and the armour protection...are there other relevant differences? We already have in Kuban for example the LaGG-3 Series 29 in place of later series, unless there are dramatic differences I think we can try to have them as joinable (apart from 342 squadron that needs the B-25 too, so only the 88 squadron as a starter).

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The other issue with the A-20 is that right now it only has Soviet bomb loads. Would be nice to have British / American bombs for it.

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10 hours ago, Alexmarine28 said:

From a swift (and uninformed) check the only differences are the frontal glass shape and the armour protection...are there other relevant differences?

Browning 0.303in machine guns instead ANM2 .50 and ANM2 .30

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16 hours ago, Alexmarine28 said:

 

From a swift (and uninformed) check the only differences are the frontal glass shape and the armour protection...are there other relevant differences?

I'd expect a lot more radios and radio navigation stuff in the western A20's - maybe the planes of the formation leaders were equipped with device for blind bombing? In autumn 1944 there was a lot going on to enhance the (electronic) bad weather and blind bombing capabilities of western allied bombers, tactical bombers, too. But I don't know if they cared for the older, "outdated" Boston's that much. RAF and USAAF tended to develop and use their own electronic stuff, sometimes using it together anyhow, sometimes not. Let's see if we'll get that kind of enhancement in BoBp.

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I know nothing about BOBp map progress, at present I'm working on the Tank Crew scripted campaigns and it will take about 3 months...

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