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HagarTheHorrible

Squaring the vulching circle against 262's

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I think it's more about how to make it realistic and enjoyable for everybody involved.  Flak alleys and/or improvised autobahn airstrips and of course teamwork from 190s/109s will give the German flyers something to do and the westerners something to struggle against.  Fun for everyone.

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Typical of this community thinking of problems way in advance of anything that is released when they know that there will clearly be solutions. 

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11 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Typical of this community thinking of problems way in advance of anything that is released when they know that there will clearly be solutions. 

 

I totally disagree, as it has allowed perhaps some players to learn that there were actual fighters sent up to protect the Me262s as well as flak corridors set up. 

Thankfully some people do try and think ahead or think of future potential problems whilst others are happy just to throw stones.

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24 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Typical of this community thinking of problems way in advance of anything that is released when they know that there will clearly be solutions. 

 

Yep my thoughts as well...

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The whole concept of BoBp is an interesting one for the combat flight sim community as it's fundamental raisin de terre is all about vulching, something the community has struggled with constantly often bitterly, over the years.

 

It will be interesting to see how the community arrives at a consensus on what is allowable and what, if anything, isn't.  Because of the very nature of the 262, it's strengths and weaknesses, unless it is considered and carefully managed it might have a profound impact on the enjoyment in the online scene. (Or not :-)

 

I certainly don't imagine the 262 to be invulnerable and I don't think it will be for everyone, maybe just a small core but that said I can foresee a few who will revel in it's strengths, training and becoming " Experten" in it' while capitalizing on any of the sims weakness's .  If they can do that, without having to necessarily being exposed to the weaknesses of the 262 then it might become a irritant for many of the opposition ( not in a good way) or possibly excluded from many online servers, which would be a great pity.  It is also just as important to consider the opposition, attacking/ vulching 262's, that the experience of hunting 262's is fun and rewarding without it seeming like a fly swatting exercise or alternitavely, suicidal.

 

The 262 was most vulnerable when taking off and particularly, landing, it seems that the rules on it's deployment in the sim should reflect that if it is to be succesfully intigrated into the wider BoX world which in turn means that vulching is considered and given some more thought.

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On 20/05/2018 at 8:50 PM, senseispcc said:

none of this 2 functions enter the scope of the game. :salute:

 

The game is called Battle of Bodenplatte, and Me-262s took part in Bodenplatte in real life. It actually fits BoBP more than the Fw-190 fits BoS.

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17 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Krokodilor said:

I guess this this dicussion is pointless, the 262 will be banned at nearly all servers, be sure mates :P

 

 

 

That would be a silly waste.  In the Berloga/WOL type servers, perhaps, but in servers like TAW/RE/Finnish it has a place.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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Just now, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

That would be a silly waste.  In the Berloga/WOL type servers, perhaps, but in servers like TAW/RE it has a place.

 

In limited numbers to represent the comparative scarcity of the a/c maybe

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Do people forget the IRL BoBp operation was almost 100% vutching and low level clashes around airfields? Read about it!

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I missed out on IL2 1946 for some reason, so can't comment on peoples experiences with the 262 in that game.

I just want to say, that I am really looking forward to flying everything in the BoBP line up. The 262 will be very different to everything else that I have flown in IL2. I can't imagine it being of much use against fighters that can see you coming, especially if wisdom dictates that you should keep your speed, but the 262's enemies will also not be able to chase it. 

 

The 262 will surely punish anyone it catches napping, but then that's true of any plane. The appeal to me is not so much the combat capability, but more the experience of handling this beauty, in this game engine, in VR. I can hardly wait.

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7 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Do people forget the IRL BoBp operation was almost 100% vutching and low level clashes around airfields? Read about it!

 

Yes but with the recent announcement of the other operations now included within BoBp it is no longer just centred around a one day engagement.  In addition from what I've read the outcome was not what was expected from this vultching.

Edited by Haza

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10 minutes ago, TP_Silk said:

 

In limited numbers to represent the comparative scarcity of the a/c maybe

 

It was fuel(especially non-262 fuel) and pilots in general that were the scarcest German resources, though, right?  The idea of making the 262 as rare as hen's teeth makes me a bit nervous, partially because it wasn't and partially because I can imagine the same select few people always getting to be the ones to fly it.

 

I think current TAW system or something like it would work well.  You have, or can earn, a 262 and if you lose it it's a pain to get it back.  Combined with the limitations of the aircraft and having to fly from special airfields, it would have the desired effect.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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The 262 will be neutered by preset fuel limitations and distant airfield locations in the unholy quest for ”parity”.  It will be deliberately crippled in multiplayer and won't rate as anything other than a middling ground attack aircraft.  If you want to play it to its strengths you will have to do so in singleplayer.

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7 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

It was fuel(especially non-262 fuel) and pilots in general that were the scarcest German resources, though, right?  The idea of making the 262 as rare as hen's teeth makes me a bit nervous, partially because it wasn't and partially because I can imagine the same select few people always getting to be the ones to fly it.

 

I think current TAW system or something like it would work well.  You have, or can earn, a 262 and if you lose it it's a pain to get it back.  Combined with the limitations of the aircraft and having to fly from special airfields, it would have the desired effect.

 

Special airfields? What do you mean?

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2 minutes ago, Haza said:

 

Special airfields? What do you mean?

 

 

Distant(thus inconvenient) and/or known, identified 262 bases that the enemy would be incentivized to target.

 

I would hope for autobahn strips as well, but I suppose they would have to be specially built in by the developers, so that's probably not happening.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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2 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

The 262 will be neutered by preset fuel limitations and distant airfield locations in the unholy quest for ”parity”.  It will be deliberately crippled in multiplayer and won't rate as anything other than a middling ground attack aircraft.  If you want to play it to its strengths you will have to do so in singleplayer.

 

Perhaps we might see the birth of some new servers when the new toys start appearing!

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2 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

Distant(thus inconvenient) and/or known, identified 262 bases that the enemy would be incentivized to target.

 

I would hope for autobahn strips as well, but I suppose they would have to be specially built in by the developers, so that's probably not happening.

 

Why would they have to be specially built in, when they are historically on the map for certain?

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Just now, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Why would they have to be specially built in, when they are historically on the map for certain?

 

You're right, but because they're something different I don't want to assume they will be included.  I have my fingers crossed, though.

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36 minutes ago, Haza said:

 

Perhaps we might see the birth of some new servers when the new toys start appearing!

Plan on opening up a server when it's released. Gonna cover the whole time frame with missions corresponding to the allied advance, thinking something like career but not as slow.

 

I don't plan on limiting the 262 in my missions but they'll probably be in lower numbers than all the other aircraft. Anyone have historical numbers per squadron or airfield, I may go off that.

Edited by Legioneod
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37 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Plan on opening up a server when it's released. Gonna cover the whole time frame with missions corresponding to the allied advance, thinking something like career but not as slow.

 

I don't plan on limiting the 262 in my missions but they'll probably be in lower numbers than all the other aircraft. Anyone have historical numbers per squadron or airfield, I may go off that.

 

I expect an interesting mission could be built around A.I 262's taking off at frequent intervals from an airbase with the sole purpose of low level Blitz bombing an Allied airfield and then returning to land.  The human controlled aircraft have the job of defending or attacking the 262's. That would confine the 262's to a more credible historic role given the lack of heavies to attack.  The aim for the Axis is to ensure sufficient 262's can take off, bomb, land, rearm, take off etc etc to degrade the Allies  while the Allies job is to obviously prevent the 262's getting through to their airbase.

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6 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

I expect an interesting mission could be built around A.I 262's taking off at frequent intervals from an airbase with the sole purpose of low level Blitz bombing an Allied airfield and then returning to land.  The human controlled aircraft have the job of defending or attacking the 262's. That would confine the 262's to a more credible historic role given the lack of heavies to attack.  The aim for the Axis is to ensure sufficient 262's can take off, bomb, land, rearm, take off etc etc to degrade the Allies  while the Allies job is to obviously prevent the 262's getting through to their airbase.

Could be interesting. I plan on keeping most 262s player controlled, though I will have some ai 109s or 190s protecting the 262 bases.

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6 hours ago, AeroAce said:

Do people forget the IRL BoBp operation was almost 100% vutching and low level clashes around airfields? Read about it!

 

Did you already forget the game is going to cover much more than just Bodenplatte?

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8 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

it's fundamental raisin de terre

 

Lol!  I have never heard that one. (or was it autocarrot changing your spelling?)

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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16 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Not really saying much, most of the aircraft in the lineup have a higher ceiling than the 262. Don't really think it matters though seeing as most combat will take place at mid to low alt, I do like high alt fights so I hope to see a few.

I believe you are not playing online enough. Let me know when you see a I16 at 8K.

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8 hours ago, Haza said:

 

Yes but with the recent announcement of the other operations now included within BoBp it is no longer just centred around a one day engagement.  In addition from what I've read the outcome was not what was expected from this vultching.

 

It was never about a one day engagement.

Yes I know what Bodenplatte was.

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42 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

I believe you are not playing online enough. Let me know when you see a I16 at 8K.

Play online plenty. And I don't see what an I-16 has to do with anything, I was speaking of the BoBp lineup.

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I vulch, therefore I am.

 

:lol:

 

BTW, it's not vulching, it's airfield suppression.

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S!

 

 Mission maker gets bothered by airfield suppression? Put some AAA at the jet bases, set on ACE proficiency. Problem solved as you would be whacked in seconds. :P

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58 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Mission maker gets bothered by airfield suppression? Put some AAA at the jet bases, set on ACE proficiency. Problem solved as you would be whacked in seconds. :P

.....and there's the rub, because it then precludes legitimate tactics for taking out 262's.  Attacking enemy airfields was dangerous, but it wasn't suicidal.  That said it could be dangerous encouraging players to seal club victims as they spawn in and start their engines just because of the possible presence of 262's.

 

Of course it might just move the issue further down the road, with Allied fighters pouncing on just airborne aircraft, which might be historically correct but may not translate well in the sim world.  Returning  fighters might even, heaven forbid, just elect to not risk landing at all 

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38 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

.....and there's the rub, because it then precludes legitimate tactics for taking out 262's.  Attacking enemy airfields was dangerous, but it wasn't suicidal.  

 

 

I'm not so sure.  I'd bet that when you're talking about the hardened, built up complexes designed to host the 262 openly rather than hide them the only real option would have been to hit it from higher altitude with bombers.  I remember Chuck Yeager talking in his autobiography about being slated for an airfield attack somewhere in Germany(can't remember where) late in the war(early '45 I think) .  It was a notorious location and he was convinced like he had never been before in the war that he was a dead man if he went there.  The attack was called off at the last moment as he sat in his P-51, to his everlasting relief.

 

The point being I think the western flyers should probably have to be a little more wily in their methods than just barnstorming the deathstar.  Maybe you could get AI B-25s to bombard the complexes, that'd be pretty cool.

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3 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Of course it might just move the issue further down the road, with Allied fighters pouncing on just airborne aircraft, which might be historically correct but may not translate well in the sim world.  Returning  fighters might even, heaven forbid, just elect to not risk landing at all 

 

Well, then defend your airfields properly with your 109s and 190s. It's not exactly hard to figure that out.

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6 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

.....and there's the rub, because it then precludes legitimate tactics for taking out 262's.  Attacking enemy airfields was dangerous, but it wasn't suicidal.  That said it could be dangerous encouraging players to seal club victims as they spawn in and start their engines just because of the possible presence of 262's.

 

Of course it might just move the issue further down the road, with Allied fighters pouncing on just airborne aircraft, which might be historically correct but may not translate well in the sim world.  Returning  fighters might even, heaven forbid, just elect to not risk landing at all 

IIRC Tempest attacks on returning Me-262s over their airfields were cancelled after a few weeks of success after they started losing a lot of planes and pilots. The Germans set up intense flak barrages that made the losses on those sorties nearly suicidal.

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2 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

IIRC Tempest attacks on returning Me-262s over their airfields were cancelled after a few weeks of success after they started losing a lot of planes and pilots. The Germans set up intense flak barrages that made the losses on those sorties nearly suicidal.

 

Yes.

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1 hour ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

Yes.

 

Rat code was officially discontinued like that. It was the initial method of choice to fight armed recce flights performed by 262.

 

What was not discontinued was the steady attacks on airfields themselves, shooting anything that moved. This was very dangerous, has always been. But it was done until the last day of the war.

 

One should not confuse a way of dealing with a specific threat situation and common standard procedures. Also one has to keep in mind that the number of Flak artillery pices is limited. The more you place outside the airfield perimeter, the less guns can actually defend the airfield itself. Thus, securing the rather extended approach of the 262 (compared to prop planes) reduces security for anything on the runway etc. 

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On 21/05/2018 at 6:07 PM, Legioneod said:

Play online plenty. And I don't see what an I-16 has to do with anything, I was speaking of the BoBp lineup.

It is simple. If you want to avoid a 262 just climb to 12k.

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On 5/22/2018 at 7:42 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

It was never about a one day engagement.

Yes I know what Bodenplatte was.

 

Gambit,

I was merely trying to point out that the next game to be released is more than just "Bodenplatte" and covers a period other than the one day operation that is associated with Operation Bodenplatte, although the next title is actually Battle Of Bodenplatte.  Therefore, I was not trying to teach anybody how to suck eggs, but was reminding AeroAce that the next game will not just be about "100 vultching" and covers a multitude of other Ops, hence why I responded to his comment.

 

Regards

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