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[ASOR]Pharoah

BOBP: Where are the bombers?

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After seeing the new Bodenplatte map, I rubbed my hands in glee going 'man this is going to be awesome for ground attack and medium bombing'....then I thought to myself, hang on what are we going to use for medium bombing? Then i realised the BoBP plane list is just full of fighters. This is the plane list:

 

  •  2 Collector Planes (P-38J and Fw 190 D-9)
  •  8 Battle of Bodenplatte Aircraft (P-51D, P-47D, Spitfire Mk.IX, Tempest Mk.V, Bf 109 G-14, Bf 109 K-4, Fw 190 A-8 and Me 262)

 

Umm....those are all fighters.

 

Given, yes the P47 did a lot of strafing and dive bombing, however where is our equivalent to the PE-2 or IL2? When we fire up TAW for Bodenplatte (in lieu of a proper MP dynamic campaign), are we only to use the A20B (even though the USAAF operated the Havoc)? During this period of the war, we had a lot of twins/medium bombers that operated eg. de Havilland Mosquito, B25 Mitchell, B26 Marauder, A20 Havoc (C/D versions i believe), Beaufighters, etc. 

 

Where are our bombers?

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The B-25 will be included as AI, with the possibility of being converted to flyable.  The Germans already have two usable bombers (Ju88 and He111-16).  Not disagreeing with you, but there it is.

 

I'm guessing, but I think the biggest problem with Allied bombers is no low hanging fruit.  The B25 and A26 are bigger with more crew positions.  The Mosquito is not really a conventional medium bomber.  Don't really know if any variant of the A20 was around for Bodenplatte.

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37 minutes ago, [ASOR]Pharoah said:

After seeing the new Bodenplatte map, I rubbed my hands in glee going 'man this is going to be awesome for ground attack and medium bombing'....then I thought to myself, hang on what are we going to use for medium bombing? Then i realised the BoBP plane list is just full of fighters. This is the plane list:

 

  •  2 Collector Planes (P-38J and Fw 190 D-9)
  •  8 Battle of Bodenplatte Aircraft (P-51D, P-47D, Spitfire Mk.IX, Tempest Mk.V, Bf 109 G-14, Bf 109 K-4, Fw 190 A-8 and Me 262)

 

Umm....those are all fighters.

 

Given, yes the P47 did a lot of strafing and dive bombing, however where is our equivalent to the PE-2 or IL2? When we fire up TAW for Bodenplatte (in lieu of a proper MP dynamic campaign), are we only to use the A20B (even though the USAAF operated the Havoc)? During this period of the war, we had a lot of twins/medium bombers that operated eg. de Havilland Mosquito, B25 Mitchell, B26 Marauder, A20 Havoc (C/D versions i believe), Beaufighters, etc. 

 

Where are our bombers?

 

'be nice be nice be nice be nice be nice be nice'

Do a little research on the ordinance/bomb carrying capacity of the Jug, and the P-38.

They are not just "fighters"

Do a little research on IX TAC operations in Belgium while you're at it.

 

This is a CAS release more than anything - not a festival of medium bombers.

 

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My excitement for BP will increase tenfold if they make the B-25 playable. I really feel we need a dedicated level bomber for variety's sake. 

Edited by GarandM1
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7 minutes ago, GarandM1 said:

My excitement for BP will increase tenfold if the make the B25 playable. I really feel we need a dedicated level bomber for variety's sake. 

 

It will be nice, no doubt.

Aside from that we have plenty of CAS goodness...also I forgot to box Pharohs' ears with the A8...

 

Edited by Gambit21
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When you limit to the 9th AF and 2nd TAF... There aren't really many bombers. The Mitchel II and the A-20G/J and that's about it but their numbers were fairly small. We're obviously ignoring Bomber Command and the 8th's Heavies because that's a different battle altogether.

 

Bodenplatte is focused on the tactical air forces and they did most of their work with fighters used as attackers. The Luftwaffe didn't fly many bombers in late 1944 or 1945. I'm still thinking a future Collector Plane will be the Ar234 as that is a bomber that would require mostly the same level of complexity as a fighter as there are no gunner stations to handle.

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49 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

When you limit to the 9th AF and 2nd TAF... There aren't really many bombers. The Mitchel II and the A-20G/J and that's about it but their numbers were fairly small. We're obviously ignoring Bomber Command and the 8th's Heavies because that's a different battle altogether.

 

Bodenplatte is focused on the tactical air forces and they did most of their work with fighters used as attackers. The Luftwaffe didn't fly many bombers in late 1944 or 1945. I'm still thinking a future Collector Plane will be the Ar234 as that is a bomber that would require mostly the same level of complexity as a fighter as there are no gunner stations to handle.

 

 

An Ar234 really would be a great addition.

 

I think something Bodenplatte could shine in would be interesting targets like V1/V2 rocket complexes.  I can't recall how much of the North Sea is included, but maybe U-Boat complexes were on the map.  In the context of the operations represented, there are a lot of really cool possibilities for ground attack and Reich Defense.

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The reason they made the map so big is for the B17F coming in the future right?

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It would be great to see flyable B-25 in future and maybe Ju 188. Although the truth is that Luftwaffe wasn't doing that much bombing anymore at late 1944 - 1945 and what it did was more or less only night missions for obvious reasons.

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8 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

It would be great to see flyable B-25 in future and maybe Ju 188. Although the truth is that Luftwaffe wasn't doing that much bombing anymore at late 1944 - 1945 and what it did was more or less only night missions for obvious reasons.

I think the last large scale operation by Luftwaffe level bombers in the area of the BoBP map was the bombing of Eindhoven on 19 Sepetember 1944. This was carried out by Do-217, Ju-88 and Ju-188. So for the Market Garden periode we can still use the Ju-88A4. Afterwards most bomber units converted to fighters or were disbanded.

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2 hours ago, KurtVonStrohm said:

The reason they made the map so big is for the B17F coming in the future right?

 

I doubt it, they made the map so big to fit all of the airfields involved in Bodenplatte on the map.

 

Maybe an AI B-17 and bomber focused map will come in future, but I'll bet you money they won't be part of Bodenplatte.

 

 

As for the lack of bombers, fighters and fighter bombers dominated the western front at low altitudes. And Bodenplatte itself was exclusively a fighter operation. That said as others have pointed out we have a number of very capable ground attackers announced already, with some having bombloads not far off the medium bombers in the game currently.

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31 minutes ago, Custard said:

As for the lack of bombers, fighters and fighter bombers dominated the western front at low altitudes. And Bodenplatte itself was exclusively a fighter operation. That said as others have pointed out we have a number of very capable ground attackers announced already, with some having bombloads not far off the medium bombers in the game currently.

 

Well we do know now that the campaign includes much more than the BP operation itself, so maybe they should consider adding more bombers. I will gladly buy a collector plane B-25 or AR234.

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I'm all for having more Allied bombers at high altitude, as without them the R4Ms will be wasted!

I say bring on the bombers!

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1 hour ago, Custard said:

 

I doubt it, they made the map so big to fit all of the airfields involved in Bodenplatte on the map.

 

Maybe an AI B-17 and bomber focused map will come in future, but I'll bet you money they won't be part of Bodenplatte.

 

 

As for the lack of bombers, fighters and fighter bombers dominated the western front at low altitudes. And Bodenplatte itself was exclusively a fighter operation. That said as others have pointed out we have a number of very capable ground attackers announced already, with some having bombloads not far off the medium bombers in the game currently.

That too but I'm sure the secret reason it's so big is for the B17F module Jason has been secretly planning all along right?

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2 minutes ago, KurtVonStrohm said:

That too but I'm sure the secret reason it's so big is for the B17F module Jason has been secretly planning all along right?

 

Actually I hear it's not B17 but Consolidated B-24 Liberator!

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Big yes to AI B-17s, or B-24s, i would even ditch that every AI gunner position has to have their own AI brain like we have now, just use one AI brain for all AI gunner positions on big airplanes to save resources like previous games do. Even use simple  CEM for AI engines so we can have more then just few of bombers in same place in formation, benefits are worth it. 

I would just try to make them as reasorce frendly as posible, as from what i understand thats the main reason of not making them, they would be to heavy for game if done like other bombers we have now, there has to be some solution to have them in game in bigger numbers atleast as AI.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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Honestly if B-17s were just big targets to protect/destroy with a bare minimum flight model but a satisfying damage model I would be happy

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1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Honestly if B-17s were just big targets to protect/destroy with a bare minimum flight model but a satisfying damage model I would be happy

That would be a good place to start. Yes, BoX is tactical and not strategic and all that other jazz we've all heard, but bombers were a huge part of the war, and if they managed to include this BoX would be one step closer to becoming the be all end all of this genre of sims. Especially if tank crew works out... watch out. There is a definite market for these planes, too. People still play b17 the mighty eighth, and that game is OLD. Yet it's still the only comparative thing we have, and the forums are begging for a remake. Something can and will fill the vacuum at one point. Question is if it will be BoX. Truth be told, I'm optimistic. The devs seem to be forward thinking, and know evolution of a series is necessary in order to survive. 

 

If they succeed, it might just pull me even more away from graviteam:lol: (a great series on the ground aspect of the war that you should try if you haven't, btw)

Edited by baylor703

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7 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

An Ar234 really would be a great addition.

 

I think something Bodenplatte could shine in would be interesting targets like V1/V2 rocket complexes.  I can't recall how much of the North Sea is included, but maybe U-Boat complexes were on the map.  In the context of the operations represented, there are a lot of really cool possibilities for ground attack and Reich Defense.

 

V-1 and V-2 would be interesting. Now that we know the scope of the map, V-1 operations would very much be a thing as Amsterdam and other cities were targeted during the time period we're dealing with.

 

Fingers crossed they can fit it in.

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I can't remember where (maybe on this forum) but I read some time ago, that the BOX engine is not ready for the high-level flying (no curved horizon etc.). If so, we cannot expect allied strategic bombers until the game engine is improved...

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8 hours ago, BorysVorobyov said:

The reason they made the map so big is for the B17F coming in the future right?

All that work for so few bombs? :P

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BlackSix has already confirmed that the Me-262 is possibly to be available in both A-1a and A-2 variants (link below), so that is one fighter and one bomber configuration. As has already been stated as well, many of the aircraft in the set conducted CAS/AtG missions on a regular basis. Some of them even more regularly than they flew in pure fighter configuration. With that much mud-moving capability are we really going to miss dedicated bomber aircraft?

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the B-25 as a player-controllable aircraft or better yet a Mossie, but until we find out what may come along as extra collectable aircraft we have enough tools in our box to have a lot of fun anyway.

 

And yes, in our squadron's current campaign (Ju-88s) and in the upcoming one (A-20s) I fly twin engine bombers because I think they're fun.

 

EDIT:

Forgot the link - here it is 

 

Edited by TP_Silk
Forgot to include link

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Bombers need crews.  AI navigators who navigate.   Bomb Aimers who aim the bombs.  Engineers to watch the engines and gunners who keep a look out, not keep secrets. 

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There is one big (in Numbers) plane missing in this game and even if we shall have the Tempest it is of the same constructor but at the time not the same function, the "Typhon"?!

Based for the most part in Belgium. This plane was present in fast Numbers until the end of the war, never did the Tempest replace it.

On the other side, even with in theory a great number in production not so many planes did get to the front and after December 1945 neither was their fuel/petrol/gas to permit them to fly.

But those how did fly in anger did so on the east from until the end of WW2 in Europe. 

I could say that the plane for the German that did see combat many times even if in small numbers and still flying at the time is the He219 Uhu. :salute:

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I agree with @ShamrockOneFive that the V-1 flying bomb would be interesting. Especially as Amsterdam and other targets are on the map. Additionally, there is a role for aircraft to intercept them - either to shoot them down or to wing-nudge them, to tip them over. However, I am not so sure about the V-2. These are not something you could intercept as they are plunging down from sub-orbital altitudes. The Ar 234 is an interesting aircraft, but more suited for reconnaissance, which is not a strength of BoX.

 

The B-17 was used in mass-formations at 22000 ft. It might make sense to have a flyable one for some sort of single-player missions, but even though the BoBo map is huge, it is still not big enough (no bases in England) and who is really going to fly that 8+ hour flight anyway? Adding them to multiplayer would result in lone-air-quaking-gunships on the deck. Probably not a good idea. High-alt bombing with player squadrons like in the SoW days just doesn't work in BoX. The focus here is ground attack and, as has been pointed out, the P-47, P-38, FW190, etc. will do absolutely superb job for that role. Add to that the Ju88, A-20 and B-25, which will provide some AI for those who want to fly intercept missions against formations. More than enough.

 

 

 

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If this OOB is correct, then the only substantial unit of bombers in the area covered by the map we're getting was 139 Wing at Melsbroek (they were based there from 18 October '44) with their B-25s (which we'll be getting as AI), the other light/medium bomber units no doubt based further back in France or in the UK. Other than this Wing, it wouldn't really be possible to run a historical campaign for any Allied bomber unit as their bases aren't on the map.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_and_Allied_order_of_battle_for_Unternehmen_Bodenplatte#RAF_No._83_Group

Edited by HBPencil

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Agree with you but we need to climb high to have fun with P51's & Doras, so some waves of IA B17s should be usefull.

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I´m pretty sure there will me a subtantial number of medium bombers on both sides which are AI only and might become flyable in the future. B-25, B-26 and A-26 are must haves as are Ju 88s etc.

11 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

V-1 and V-2 would be interesting. Now that we know the scope of the map, V-1 operations would very much be a thing as Amsterdam and other cities were targeted during the time period we're dealing with.

 

Fingers crossed they can fit it in.

 

Oh yeah, interception missions with Tempests, Mustang IIIs and IVs, Spit XIVs and Gloster Meteors would be awesome.

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7 hours ago, senseispcc said:

There is one big (in Numbers) plane missing in this game and even if we shall have the Tempest it is of the same constructor but at the time not the same function, the "Typhon"?!

Based for the most part in Belgium. This plane was present in fast Numbers until the end of the war, never did the Tempest replace it.

On the other side, even with in theory a great number in production not so many planes did get to the front and after December 1945 neither was their fuel/petrol/gas to permit them to fly.

But those how did fly in anger did so on the east from until the end of WW2 in Europe. 

I could say that the plane for the German that did see combat many times even if in small numbers and still flying at the time is the He219 Uhu. :salute:

consider; There was a group of Typhoons ready for takeoff at one of the Eindhoven fields that was apparently shot up during Bodenplatte.

 

As far as the V1 and V2 go; From November  of 1944 onwards Antwerp (and Liege as well) were targeted by both V1 and V2 rockets. From what I've been able to find out V2 rockets were launched from the The Hague area of the Netherlands and that area was indeed patrolled by fighters. (I believe there is at least one known engagement in that area where a Spitfire fired on a launching V2)

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Looking forward to the P47 and D9.

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1 hour ago, PatCartier said:

Agree with you but we need to climb high to have fun with P51's & Doras, so some waves of IA B17s should be usefull.

 

There was plenty of P-51 action down lower in that theater.

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4 hours ago, PatCartier said:

Agree with you but we need to climb high to have fun with P51's & Doras, so some waves of IA B17s should be usefull.

I'm not too worried about how well either of those two will do at lower altitudes; the P-51 is fast at any altitude and as I understand it most -51Ds had the Packard built version of the same engine as the Spitfire LF.IX, so it's not a high altitude specialist aircraft.
As for the Dora, I don't know the figures but I'm reminded of a well known 1v1 dogfight between a Tempest V and a Dora that happened at ground level. The Tempest pilot was 'Rosie' Mackie, a very experienced ace and he felt that fight was the hardest one he ever experienced, so I suspect that the Dora will be dangerous at any altitude so long as the pilot is competent enough.

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Heavy B-17 or B-24 Liberator bombers, in my opinion, have no place in IL-2 BoX. Due to the fact that the maps, despite being large, are too small for heavy bombers. For example, B-24 Liberators flew from England or Italy to the center of Germany, this flight lasted a total of several hours. Would you like to spend so much time on a flight that can be unsuccessful?
However, as for B-25 / A-26 / DO-217, according to me, developers should add them under the control of players, they were tactical bombers that supported the army directly from the airports behind the frontline. B-25 Mitchell could easily deal with maps of the current size. I would love to play a B-25 pilot career.

Edited by GTursonA523

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You guys keep forgetting that conventional German bombers were dodo birds by the second half of 1944. If it's a German bomber for this period that you want, you gotta look to the Ar 234.

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I noted in a topic about the 262 in Bodenplatte's plane set that:

 

A few of the fighters in this package can serve as effective "fighter-bombers". By the end of the war using these "fighter-bombers" in place of dedicated ground attackers was commonplace on the Western front, making the choice to only include fighters and fighter-bombers in Bodenplatte not a particularly unusual one.

 

Aircraft that one would want to use in a ground attack role include:

 

The P51 and P47 (two of which could carry as much ordinance as a B17) on the allied side.

 

The Fw-A8 and Me-262 on the german side.

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8 hours ago, PatCartier said:

Agree with you but we need to climb high to have fun with P51's & Doras, so some waves of IA B17s should be usefull.

 

The P-51D isn't slow at low altitude... Even running at 67"HG (and there's no reason why we won't get higher, there's evidence to suggest that the RAF used 81"HG over the continent) it can pull 600kmh on the deck

 

P-51D_15342_Level.jpg

 

 

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