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II./JG77_motoadve

Vertical fin damage almost not modeled.

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FW 190 my vertical fin got shot off, all gone, I was able to keep flying a bit unstable but flew all the way back and landed.

This is very arcade , airplane should have lost control and crashed.

 

Hope devs look into this kind of issue.

 

Whoever is going to defend this saying is good the way it is or dont complain because game is perfect , I am telling you in advance you have no clue about aerodynamics.

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You are assuming that the visual representation of damage corresponds exactly to the damage that is input to the flight model for computing the new flight characteristics of the damaged aircraft.

Given the degree of approximation in the damage visuals of BOX, the vertical stabilizer may have been still largely present, even if graphically it was represented as almost gone.

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2 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

You are assuming that the visual representation of damage corresponds exactly to the damage that is input to the flight model for computing the new flight characteristics of the damaged aircraft.

Given the degree of approximation in the damage visuals of BOX, the vertical stabilizer may have been still largely present, even if graphically it was represented as almost gone.

I lost my vertical fin last night and promptly entered an unrecoverable tumbling spin (no other visual damage to wings or tail plane, cannon round just sheared my fin clean off) so obviously the damage is modeled. As Nibbio said, it's probably an issue with the damage visual rather than the flight modeling. 

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13 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

You are assuming that the visual representation of damage corresponds exactly to the damage that is input to the flight model for computing the new flight characteristics of the damaged aircraft.

Given the degree of approximation in the damage visuals of BOX, the vertical stabilizer may have been still largely present, even if graphically it was represented as almost gone.

This could be a good explanation.

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12 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Haha, that was the first thing that came up when I googled similar situations. I knew I'd heard of something like that happening before! 

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Nah guys you didn't listen to the OP. If you disagree with him or offer explanations, you're just wrong.

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Posted (edited)

xBsM4S1.jpg

YB4NhPy.jpg

Uuk9W26.jpg

 

Even a powerful single engine fighter doesn't need that much rudder to be brought back to base.

Nibbio may be right on this one. Right now visual damage is limited to more or less holes, rudder gone or entire vertical fin gone. physical DM might be a bit different.

 

You also may want to consider the shape of the 190 rear fuselage, it is tall but very flattened on the sides and blend in very nicely with the fin part. It somehow participates in the lateral stability of the plane itself. IL2s with their very roundish rear fuselage aren't at all that stable and I've lost count of how many went down in a flat spin after I shot their vertical fin off.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber
Wrong nickname quote :)
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Just now, Diggun said:

Nah guys you didn't listen to the OP. If you disagree with him or offer explanations, you're just wrong.

Look at my second post , someone explained in a proper way and I agreed, please read before posting or trying to be a troll.

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10 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Look at my second post , someone explained in a proper way and I agreed, please read before posting or trying to be a troll.

 

How about not telling people they "don't have a clue" before they even have a chance to respond? If that isn't trolling, it is a close approximation. 

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Why do you even bother replying? thread is solved, someone explained a good possibility why things work that way and I was satisfied.

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8 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Why do you even bother replying? thread is solved, someone explained a good possibility why things work that way and I was satisfied.

 

Well I've added you to my ignore list, so that's two of us satisfied.

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2 hours ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

xBsM4S1.jpg

YB4NhPy.jpg

Uuk9W26.jpg

 

Even a powerful single engine fighter doesn't need that much rudder to be brought back to base.

RedKestrel may be right on this one. Right now visual damage is limited to more or less holes, rudder gone or entire vertical fin gone. physical DM might be a bit different.

 

You also may want to consider the shape of the 190 rear fuselage, it is tall but very flattened on the sides and blend in very nicely with the fin part. It somehow participates in the lateral stability of the plane itself. IL2s with their very roundish rear fuselage aren't at all that stable and I've lost count of how many went down in a flat spin after I shot their vertical fin off.

In fairness it was @Nibbio that mentioned that first, I was just adding a little to it.

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the fin is equivalent to the orze of a ship

 

it allows to go agaisnt the wind but in a propelled ship you dont need it that much since it just avoids derivation

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2 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

This could be a good explanation.

 

It is a good explanation.

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4 hours ago, Nibbio said:

Given the degree of approximation in the damage visuals of BOX, the vertical stabilizer may have been still largely present, even if graphically it was represented as almost gone.

 

Is there any evidence that the game does this? 

 

The FM is quite complicated regardless of damage; I’d be surprised to find out that it has additional elements not represented visually. 

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

In fairness it was @Nibbio that mentioned that first, I was just adding a little to it.

 

Typed a little fast and didn't checked before posting, I corrected my post. Thanks for pointing that out :)

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17 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Is there any evidence that the game does this? 

 

The FM is quite complicated regardless of damage; I’d be surprised to find out that it has additional elements not represented visually. 

 

It is likely a cost saving measure. Making a detailed flight and damage model is relatively resource efficient when it comes to code time and processor time. The visual damage model though, requires a lot more. You would have to have art assets for most or all of the damage permutations for every part of every airplane, which can be done with time, sure. But then you have to have the visual model applied to the in game assets in concert with the flight and damage model dynamically as the models are moving through the game space. I don't know all the technical aspects of making this happen in the game but it would surely take a lot of dev time to get the systems working and a fairly sizable amount of computing power to make it happen. As it stands, though, the visual damage model is fairly good, if not a 1:1 simulation.

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How many more of these threads are going to show up?

Posters make observations, say that the game is arcade in some way, plus if anyone disagrees then we are all wrong, all without a shred of evidence or research to back up their claims... oh, and this one tells us we know nothing of aerodynamics... just priceless, you couldn't make it up!

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So a 190 should keep relatively stable flight with a missing vertical?

 

I had the same happen to me on TAW and had no idea my vertical was completely shot away until I was on final and my speed dropped enough for me to lose control in my yaw axis and I ended that sortie sliding along the runway.

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Somehow reminds me the first post this video here, the same stuff but different plane...................:lol:

 

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22 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

FW 190 my vertical fin got shot off, all gone, I was able to keep flying a bit unstable but flew all the way back and landed.

This is very arcade , airplane should have lost control and crashed.

 

Hope devs look into this kind of issue.

 

Whoever is going to defend this saying is good the way it is or dont complain because game is perfect , I am telling you in advance you have no clue about aerodynamics.

 

The vertical fin is mostly used for keeping the plane in an ideal airflow, meaning not to "slip" the plane. But it is not alone in doing so, actually the whole fuselage is doing exactly the same thing. The propeller also "pulls" the plane straight, assuming its a single-prop driven plane with the prop sitting in front of the center of gravity (like almost every fighter in the game).

So, most (!) planes might actually fly quite well when only (!) the vertical fin is lost. As you described, it got a little bit unstable. In my opinion the representation in this game is quite good.

Of course one should always keep in mind every simulator only models the reality, there is always a point at which real aerodynamics might do other stuff.

 

If you lose your horizontal stabilizer, that's a whole new deal.

 

Oh, and I studied aerodynamics (and am a flight instructor), so yeah...

 

21 hours ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

 

 

Uuk9W26.jpg

 

I doubt the plane ever flew like this. The horizontal stabilizer is almost completely gone.

My quess would be another plane hit this P51 with its propeller while taxiing considering the strips and slices. This happened quite often as the view out front was quite limited in these machines.

But of course I could be wrong.

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23 hours ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

You also may want to consider the shape of the 190 rear fuselage, it is tall but very flattened on the sides and blend in very nicely with the fin part. It somehow participates in the lateral stability of the plane itself. IL2s with their very roundish rear fuselage aren't at all that stable and I've lost count of how many went down in a flat spin after I shot their vertical fin off.

 

 

This is true.  Depending of the extent of loss of the vertical stabilizer in the IL-2, you might be able to retain control of the aircraft.  But typically you will enter a rightward flat spin.   This is worse than having your control rods broken and nosing in, nothing to be done but deactivate your bomb fuses and pray.  Even if you don't blow up, the impact will often kill the pilot.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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21 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Is there any evidence that the game does this? 

 

Yes, on the ROF forums, ages ago.

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