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Auto level autopilot is single engine airplanes which gives additional speed is being abused in multiplayer

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When someone gives actual figures ("5-20 km/h depending on altitude"), I expect them to be able to back them up. Or admit that the figures are meaningless.  This thread is littered with posts that make the same unverified assertion, and whether you call it a 'technical debate' or not, it is still an argument based on an unverified assertion.

 

 

 

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20 km/h difference is really a lot. If you can keep the ball centered, then you will be as fast as autolevel. When I have the ball centered, there is no speed difference. All it takes is flicking the yaw trim until the ball is where it should be. Then there you are. It takes 3 seconds at max. Just practise. It is more difficult to hold the plane with the pedals (forget twist), but also that is done quickly.

 

Besides, when activating autolevel, you usually do it out of a diving situation. Autolevel tries the to get back up to the altitude where you hit Shift-a. This means autolevel is commonly initiated by a slight pull up that is like slamming the brakes on your AC. If you need to elongate distance, you are compelled to use a slight dive to be fast enough to leave combat zone. Flying level (even perfectly so) is slower than that and you immediately start bleeding energy. Worse when also you’re hitting the brakes before separating from the fight by the initial pull up. The only point where you can hit autolevel is when the other people lost interest in you because you‘re too far already.

 

Even though the argument might sound theoretically (which is probably why it is brought up in the first place), in practise it will get you killed for certain in a MP session.

 

What remains true is that when you cannot fly cordinated, you are free food in MP. And this is not because of autolevel, it is because of you.

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12 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

If you can keep the ball centered, then you will be as fast as autolevel. When I have the ball centered, there is no speed difference. All it takes is flicking the yaw trim until the ball is where it should be. Then there you are

 

OP mentions I16. That does not have a yaw trim. None of the Axis fighters have yaw trim. Yaks don't have yaw trim.

 

16 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Just practise.

 

It rises the question, though, why would anybody need to practice, when they can just hit autopilot and go grab a beer. Or start scanning sky for contact, without needing to give any effort to flying, knowing that the plane is flying automatically on optimal trim.

 

It would definitely be an improvement to the game, if this level autopilot would just keep the plane's altitude, but not affect any trims.

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Autolevel does not effect trims!

 

Fly something with two engines, kill one engine, then hit autolevel.  It will not fly coordinated.

 

You have to trim the aircraft manually (which you can adjust while autolevel is still engaged).  IIRC you can also adjust the horizontal stabilizer, on aircraft that have one, while autolevel is engaged.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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Isn't autolevel ap the state we're in when we enter a server in MP ?

 

Anyway, it should be possible to disable in the Server side for Expert modes...

Edited by jcomm-in-combat
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28 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

OP mentions I16. That does not have a yaw trim. None of the Axis fighters have yaw trim. Yaks don't have yaw trim.

The I16 cannot be the issue, here's why:

 

1) I16 needs very little kick on the pedal to keep it straight. Not doing anything keeps you in a reasonably useful attitude. If you still cannot use rudder such that you fly coordinated turns, you will further bleed airspeed in combat and make the slowest fighter even slower. This is not a position from where you can even dream to run from a fight.

 

2) You can NEVER run from ANY German plane in an I16, autolevel or not.

 

3) I specifically tried the I16 for speed comparisons autoloevel/no autolevel and there is no difference in speed. Zero. Nil. Naught.

 

Hitting autolevel means instant sucide when you are chased in an I16 as it negates the only advantage the I16 has over the German planes, which is agility.

 

34 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

It rises the question, though, why would anybody need to practice, when they can just hit autopilot and go grab a beer.

To make this an argument, you are supposing you hit 100% power setting before getting a resupply of Zielwasser. On manyplanes, this implies that the prop is not turning anymore when you come back. How much iof an advantage is autolevel at continuous power?

 

40 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

It rises the question, though, why would anybody need to practice

Well I'm glad if they don't, so I can at least bottom feed on MP besides just getting wasted by the pro's on TS.

 

42 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Or start scanning sky for contact, without needing to give any effort to flying

A very tempting thing to do. I frequently do that. It is when explosions and banging sounds wake you up from marvelling at the sky instead of the fair warning of tracers flying by your cockpit.

 

41 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Or start scanning sky for contact, without needing to give any effort to flying

It doesn't affect trims. "It just moves the stick."

 

 

It amazes me how much hope people put in "running away" from combat. There are in fact very few situations where you can do so against a pilot that is not just losing track of you, even in fast fighters like the Fw190. The speed differentials between the commonly used fighetrs are way to small to drag you out of trouble in time before the inevitable happened. There have been nice charts published in this forum proving the futility of the strategy in a losing situation.

 

The short truth is, you can only disengage from combat if you put yourself in a position BEFORE you are doing so, meaning you have to force your opponent in a maneuver in antisense to your flight path, like in some sort of a scissor. The time the opponent needs to turn around to turn on you is the time you can invest for sepatation. As you can be readily shot by the evil marksmen in MP up to 600 meters distance, this requires you can at least add 400 meters to the combat shooting distance of your opponent, where you were venturing and got uncomfortable. If you were going 150 m/s, this means you will need to buy AT LEAST 2,5 seconds in order to just keep dreaming to stay alive, autolevel or not.

 

Furthermore, you should also disengage from a situation of higher energy, at best both in speed and altitude. It is moot to get 3 seconds time on your quarry, if he can enter the chase 100 m above you at comparable speed.

 

Unless you can effectively type "god" or "kill" in the console, there is no switch in this game that helps you win against a more proficient opponent. You just have to realize that you're a mediocre combat pilot as well and suck that up. Welcome to the club. If you feel you don't have to learn to fly with coordinated controls, thank you for the free frag!

 

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2 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

To make this an argument, you are supposing you hit 100% power setting before getting a resupply of Zielwasser. On manyplanes, this implies that the prop is not turning anymore when you come back.

 

Well, if the fridge is less than a minute away, you can go on autopilot and max throttle in a Bf109 and get back in time. The beer example was only figurative of course, the point was that with current autopilot anybody can always fly at optimal trim settings, with no effort at all. Let's take a sports example, for example basketball. Some people shoot 50% free throws ("bad trimmers"), some shoot over 90% ("good trimmers"). Nobody shoots 100% accuracy (autopilot). So, if somebody found out a way to shoot 100% free throws without any practice, why would he need to practice an alternative method, where even the best of the best can't get to 100% accuracy? There are lots of other things to practice to get better in.

 

11 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It doesn't affect trims. "It just moves the stick."

 

I doubt it, but have not tested myself. From previous similar threads I have understood that it sets the plane to perfect trims, though. Either way it automates things beyond what is possible for a normal person to do continuously.

 

15 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It amazes me how much hope people put in "running away" from combat.

 

Of course there are also people that don't value their virtual lives and press any 1vs4 combat to the bitter end instead of disengaging, but how is that sustifying keeping the current autopilot system? If somebody does not want to disengage, why would it bother him, if the level autopilot was altered so that it could not fly aerodynamically optimally automatically?

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2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

20 km/h difference is really a lot. If you can keep the ball centered, then you will be as fast as autolevel. When I have the ball centered, there is no speed difference. All it takes is flicking the yaw trim until the ball is where it should be. Then there you are. It takes 3 seconds at max. Just practise. It is more difficult to hold the plane with the pedals (forget twist), but also that is done quickly.

 

Besides, when activating autolevel, you usually do it out of a diving situation. Autolevel tries the to get back up to the altitude where you hit Shift-a. This means autolevel is commonly initiated by a slight pull up that is like slamming the brakes on your AC. If you need to elongate distance, you are compelled to use a slight dive to be fast enough to leave combat zone. Flying level (even perfectly so) is slower than that and you immediately start bleeding energy. Worse when also you’re hitting the brakes before separating from the fight by the initial pull up. The only point where you can hit autolevel is when the other people lost interest in you because you‘re too far already.

 

Even though the argument might sound theoretically (which is probably why it is brought up in the first place), in practise it will get you killed for certain in a MP session.

 

What remains true is that when you cannot fly cordinated, you are free food in MP. And this is not because of autolevel, it is because of you.

 

Reading this thread with some amusement, but I think you have put your finger on a key point. Level flight - by definition at 1g - cannot be the fastest at least in the short term: you have to unload to zero g, so that you have zero induced drag.  

 

I propose that a new key be added for auto-zero g flight for faster escape. Or at least a g-meter. Whether that is a technochat type feature or better some dust in the cockpit I do not mind. ;)

 

 

Edited by unreasonable

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20 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

The beer example was only figurative of course, the point was that with current autopilot anybody can always fly at optimal trim settings, with no effort at all.

This is called learning to fly an aircraft. There is no way around that. You will be soon at a level wher you can easily match the autolevel. It is not that difficult. Flying cordinated in maneuvering is way more difficult, and failure to do so make the P-40 such a sloth. Keep it straight and it's not so bad.

 

The idea that "100% perfection in control" as supposedly given by the autolevel does not give you an advantage in the game. It gets you killed because it makes you the easiest of all targets. It is not a free throw. On the contraty.

 

Again, even 10 km/h difference don't help you in a running situation. From an even energy situation, you need at least 50 km/h speed difference to to even think about outrunning a sniper. That still keeps you 20 seconds (!!!!) in firing range of a sniper! You see now, even 50 km/h difference won't help you in a bad situation. And you can't argue that autolevel gives you a 50 km/h speed advantage.

 

The germans had a term for pilots on autolevel: "Scheibe fliegen". ("(a) flying target")

 

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Reading this thread with some amusement, but I think you have put your finger on a key point. Level flight - by definition at 1g - cannot be the fastest at least in the short term: you have to unload to zero g, so that you have zero induced drag.  

 Some wisdom from the dephts of the FM threads :)

Edited by ZachariasX
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42 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

This is called learning to fly an aircraft. There is no way around that. You will be soon at a level wher you can easily match the autolevel.

 

Talking about basketball, there are people that have shot and made hundreds of free throws in a row. Then they miss. That is not a match for a machine that does not miss.

Then there are people that miss 50 free throws out of a hundred and there are people that miss 10 free throws out of a hundred. If we made a computer game about basketball, should it be simulated so, that both players always hit 100% of their free throws, so that the skill difference would not matter? You understand my point?

 

42 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The idea that "100% perfection in control" as supposedly given by the autolevel does not give you an advantage in the game. It gets you killed because it makes you the easiest of all targets. It is not a free throw. On the contraty.

 

So, if I am able to pull away from my enemy safely (and in addition to that can concentrate 100% at looking around and scanning for contacts instead of having to put some effort to flying) makes me an easier target for a chasing enemy than being slower than him, so that he can catch up on me? Somehow it feels safer being out of his gun range and adding separation instead of having him closing the gap.

 

42 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Again, even 10 km/h difference don't help you in a running situation.

 

So, if I am 600m away from him and 10 km/h faster than him makes me an easier target than if I was 10 km/h slower than him?

10 km/h difference means that a 2,5 minute chase would turn that separation to over a kilometer ... or 150 metres.

 

44 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Level flight - by definition at 1g - cannot be the fastest at least in the short term

 

Well, diving has one problem though, at some point your flight path intersects with ground and that can be painful. 

Also, let's imagine a situation that you are in a 109 at quite high altitude, run out of ammo, and have to disengage from a couple of La-5's. You dive away from them, have good separation and are at 700 km/h at 3k and see that the La-5's have decided to chase you anyway. Would you want to continue to dive all the way to deck or level out at 3k?

 

Putting the question from a different aspect - what would be the downside of it, if level autopilot (that did not exist historically) would not fly at optimal aerodynamical setting? Why defend this feature so passionately?

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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Autolevel is not „a score“. It had nothing to do with your Basketball example.

 

What autolevel does, is it makes your plane fly horizontal, putting it at whatever attitude it has to by means of robot stick inputs.

 

Depending on where your stab setting is, it counters that with deflection of control surface. If your trim is not set at that autolevel speed, deactivating it makes you plane depart flight attitude immediately. Trim stays.

 

The autolevel robot is not looking out to maximise speed. It only does so in the end given your stab and rad settings etc. But it is not that efficient at all to get there. This becomes very apparent when accellerating. If you run, you must accellerate as fast as possible. You do that best, as stated by unreasonable above, at 0 g. Doing so at 1 g as the robot does, that will penalize you. Autolevel only comes at hand once you already reached full speed. But since you‘re there then anyway, there is no real need to position yourself such that obscene long range shots become a good option.

 

NEVER EVER fly straight line in combat for more than a couple of seconds. Being ABSOLUTELY steady makes matters even much worse.

 

A note regarding scanning the sky while on autolevel. Doing so just assures a permanent blind spot in your 6 o‘clock position. Count on someone creeping up there and shoot you in the back. You‘re free food after all.

 

Thininking on WoL etc. „oh, great, I outran my quarry, I‘m safe now“ needs some serious readjustment of the realities...

 

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@Kemp - Not passionately - but the feature needs to stay in the game. As far as I can remember I have only ever used it (reluctantly but frequently) because BoS's poor design of the in-fight map (unlike RoF which was perfect) means you either have a useless and annoying minimap or the whole screen covered in the "O" Map. It is quite hard to consult a map and fly even roughly straight and level when deprived of peripheral vision, given that we also have no seat-of-the-pants feel.  (And before anyone suggests "just use a paper map" that will not work for someone like me who needs a different set of specs for each focal length). Also occasionally used for test or cinematic purposes: auto-level that is, not different pairs of specs.

 

So the feature is extremely useful in SP outside of combat: even before considering cats, annoying GFs and the need to take a slash. Why anyone would use it in combat is beyond me.


Now many people are saying OK for SP, but let us take it out of MP because xyz.  This seems reasonable enough, especially if it is as a server option, but I have a long memory of this kind of argument. Before long, someone will come along and say, no, it should not be available in SP either, because if it is someone will find a way to use it in MP. ie cheat.  MODs, custom skins, zoom, player adjustable draw distances: whatever: we have seen this argument deployed at great length, hence my aversion to line of thinking. I have no problem with options - but I dislike (passionately) that people argue to take options out of the game because of MP paranoia.

 

Someone once got shot down: it's the biased FM, lag, cheating:  now it is auto-level abuse. When does this ever stop?  #Iwasshotdownbutnotmyfault

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Autolevel is not „a score“. It had nothing to do with your Basketball example.

 

Sorry to hear that you did not understand the comparison.

The point was that autolevel is always aerodynamically perfectly set => analogy with basketball that 100% perfect technique/power/whatever leads to 100% accuracy.

Very good human pilots are probably able to keep the plane quite well set, but sometimes their leg slip or they sneeze or the plane's nose goes a degree up or down before they react etc, so there will be some, even if little, variation in what they do => analogy with basketball that sometimes even the best free throw shooters miss. 

Less good human pilots have more trouble in keeping the ball in the middle or otherwise perfectly set => analogy with basketball that their free throw technique is not as good, so they miss more often.

I hope that helped you understand the analogy.

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

If your trim is not set at that autolevel speed, deactivating it makes you plane depart flight attitude immediately.

 

Like I said, I have not tested it myself, but I have seen in other threads, where people have tested and claim that autolevel flies as perfectly trimmed plane. If you are able to show that by better trimming you are able to fly faster than autopilot, I am sure that many would be interested in seeing that.

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

NEVER EVER fly straight line in combat for more than a couple of seconds.

 

Okay, so if  you are out of ammo and disengaging from chasing La-5's, like in previous example, then you prefer zig-zaging, so enemy could cut corners and close in on you faster? Even if you prefer to let the enemy close in on you, I don't understand how is that an argument for keeping the current autolevel concept? Don't fully understand the connection here.

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

A note regarding scanning the sky while on autolevel. Doing so just assures a permanent blind spot in your 6 o‘clock position.

 

When someone disengages from the fight that I mentioned in my previous example, he generally has quite good memory or what is "30 seconds behind him". Then can disengage the autopilot, do a small bank and check six -> ok, La-5's are still there -> another 30 seconds at max speed. I believe that approach has generally higher survival expectancy than zig-zaging in front of a pair of La-5's, when out of ammo.

 

But either way, if you prefer zig-zaging over fast disengaging, I still don't understand, why you are strongly against changing the autopilot optimization?

 

57 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

@Kemp - Not passionately - but the feature needs to stay in the game.

 

But the discussion here is not really about wether is needs to stay in the game or not, but about it flying "perfectly efficient beyound human capabilities".

Read the bold text int he first post of this thread. OP is not against the autolevel completely, but wants to limit it's speed. If the level-auto would be either less efficient aerodynamically or had a cap on max throttle, this would not be an issue.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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40 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

The point was that autolevel is always aerodynamically perfectly set

Ok for you, here our dear 109-G6, fully trimmed nose up at 1.3 ata or so.

 

Check the tailplane:

Untitled_1.jpg

 

It goes 450 km/h indicated like that. Full nose down trim, tailplane all "flat" and the plane goes 475 km/h indicated.

 

In this expample, wrong trim gave you 25 km/h speed differential at autolevel.

 

I did not make a second screenshot, you will find out next time you are playing this game. But you do understand now that autolevel does not touch the trim, right?

 

I guess with that I buried the argument that autloevel is "perfect" when you are not.

 

52 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

I have seen in other threads, where people have tested and claim that autolevel flies as perfectly trimmed plane.

If that is true, they do something seriously wrong. See the image I posted above. If you only have trimtabs, then the effect of wrong trim will be less of course. But taking that example wouldn't have made it possible to provide an obvious proof to my statement.

 

52 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

If you are able to show that by better trimming you are able to fly faster than autopilot, I am sure that many would be interested in seeing that.

I never said that. But I can definitely get sooner to max. speed than autolvel. This is actually rather easy.

 

53 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Okay, so if  you are out of ammo and disengaging from chasing La-5's, like in previous example, then you prefer zig-zaging,

No, that would have me dead even sooner. What you want to do is going straight while keeping your plane in motion, slightly "flapping" the wings to always check your 6 as well as the rest of the sky. If the La-5 is on Teamspeak or turning on his formation lights, expect another gaggle of Ivans arriving swiftly taking turns at you. From then on, you can only count on sportsmanship or the fact that there is only space for one behind you to make it to friendly territory. Once there, you better remember where the Flak is. Going in circles over a couple of AAA guns is much better for survival than any autolevel, trust me on this.

 

59 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

"30 seconds behind him"

If someone is daft enough to chase you at that distance when he must have realized that you saw him (and you are not a bomber), then he deserves that you tow him over friendly AAA emplacements and you have your fun with him there.

 

1 hour ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

but about it flying "perfectly efficient beyound human capabilities".

I guess the screenshot above puts this to rest.

 

Removing autolevel just kills the presence of all casual players. If just the regular offenders remain, your life will be even more miserable online, especially if you can't even fly with correct trim. The server is gonna be empty 90% of the time (no fun) and once it is full, you can't even dream to make it as far as running from them.

 

It is very easy:

- Especially on planes with a movable stabilo, trim it until it  flies until it goes straight with the stick centered.

- If you have no rudder trim, look down where the ball is and push that to the center with the pedals. Keep it such. Remember, for climbing you  have to depress the other foot. Check the ball!

 

You do that, you're as fast as autolevel. and you will be faster soon. Just go at 0 g or near it (not below) while beginning to acellerate. You're losing substancial induced drag then.

 

Practise. It's fun. :)

 

 

 

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The problem here is that just because people can auto level in MP, they have some sort of clear advantage... this only seems to be a perception by some users, but there is no clear proof of any kind whatsoever to back up their beliefs... what is needed I guess is one of the dev's to inform the forum that the belief is total nonsense, or not.

 

edit... just seen the post above, a picture paints a thousand words  :)

 

Edited by Trooper117
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17 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

edit... just seen the post above, a picture paints a thousand words  :)

I am glad to see that lunchbreak was well invested.

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20 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Ok for you, here our dear 109-G6, fully trimmed nose up at 1.3 ata or so.

 

Check the tailplane:

Untitled_1.jpg

 

It goes 450 km/h indicated like that. Full nose down trim, tailplane all "flat" and the plane goes 475 km/h indicated.

 

In this expample, wrong trim gave you 25 km/h speed differential at autolevel.

 

I did not make a second screenshot, you will find out next time you are playing this game. But you do understand now that autolevel does not touch the trim, right?

 

I guess with that I buried the argument that autloevel is "perfect" when you are not.

 

If that is true, they do something seriously wrong. See the image I posted above. If you only have trimtabs, then the effect of wrong trim will be less of course. But taking that example wouldn't have made it possible to provide an obvious proof to my statement.

 

I never said that. But I can definitely get sooner to max. speed than autolvel. This is actually rather easy.

 

No, that would have me dead even sooner. What you want to do is going straight while keeping your plane in motion, slightly "flapping" the wings to always check your 6 as well as the rest of the sky. If the La-5 is on Teamspeak or turning on his formation lights, expect another gaggle of Ivans arriving swiftly taking turns at you. From then on, you can only count on sportsmanship or the fact that there is only space for one behind you to make it to friendly territory. Once there, you better remember where the Flak is. Going in circles over a couple of AAA guns is much better for survival than any autolevel, trust me on this.

 

If someone is daft enough to chase you at that distance when he must have realized that you saw him (and you are not a bomber), then he deserves that you tow him over friendly AAA emplacements and you have your fun with him there.

 

I guess the screenshot above puts this to rest.

 

Removing autolevel just kills the presence of all casual players. If just the regular offenders remain, your life will be even more miserable online, especially if you can't even fly with correct trim. The server is gonna be empty 90% of the time (no fun) and once it is full, you can't even dream to make it as far as running from them.

 

It is very easy:

- Especially on planes with a movable stabilo, trim it until it  flies until it goes straight with the stick centered.

- If you have no rudder trim, look down where the ball is and push that to the center with the pedals. Keep it such. Remember, for climbing you  have to depress the other foot. Check the ball!

 

You do that, you're as fast as autolevel. and you will be faster soon. Just go at 0 g or near it (not below) while beginning to acellerate. You're losing substancial induced drag then.

 

Practise. It's fun. :)

 

 

 

Oh_87d349_1627161.jpg.f950d6cba4426362f4dbc99a0cdf74d9.jpg

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7 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

When someone gives actual figures ("5-20 km/h depending on altitude"), I expect them to be able to back them up. Or admit that the figures are meaningless.  This thread is littered with posts that make the same unverified assertion, and whether you call it a 'technical debate' or not, it is still an argument based on an unverified assertion.

 

Maybe to you it is, to me it is a matter of opinion. I find it advantageous to use auto level for performance reasons. I doubt I'm going significantly faster than I could do manually if I paid attention, but my attention is generally elsewhere in combat. At least I try not to get fixated on anything. I accept that you have a different opinion, based on your experience. If the factual errors in the first post bother you so much, feel free to substitute the first post with my opinion. Because I agree with the bottom line of the OP: The auto-level should in some way be limited, be it a difficulty option, or a speed/power range or to historically present systems. Or a combination of that. I find the function extremely useful for testing, and absolutely necessary for level bombing. It's bollocks to use it in fighters, in particular in online play, and negates disadvantages of aircraft without taking away the advantages. Trim systems add to complexity and weight of the aircraft, reducing performance, for ease of flying. Why bother with 3-axial trim on a P-40 if it can do the same as a no trim I-16 in game - kick out the trim systems and save 50kg of aircraft weight.

I've played Il-2:1946 for years without it, and never missed it.

 

:ph34r:Zero g flight isn't necessarily the flight condition with least total drag, this was often the case in the cl = 0.1 range. Owing to the negative angle of attack necessary for 0 g, causing increasing parasitic drag.:ph34r:

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24 minutes ago, JtD said:

:ph34r:Zero g flight isn't necessarily the flight condition with least total drag, this was often the case in the cl = 0.1 range. Owing to the negative angle of attack necessary for 0 g, causing increasing parasitic drag.:ph34r:

"Wo er recht hat, hat er recht."

I prefer telling someone to try 0 g /weightless instead of 0.1 g. Especially if planes don't have a g-meter. It ends up the same.
 

47 minutes ago, JtD said:

t's bollocks to use it in fighters, in particular in online play, and negates disadvantages of aircraft without taking away the advantages.

This is absolutely true, but it is not really that acute in that sense I think. Not having a trim does impose severe and exhausting physical workloads that none of the "Comfy Armchair Pilots" is ever exposed to. It's really not a problem to hold the plane straight over extended time by just putting down the foot on the pedal such that it is locked in the right position. The better your pedals, the easier it is. But all players have the same pros and cons.

 

It surely comes down to a preference of how you fly. I often use autolevel, also in fighters online. Without autolevel, BERLOGA would be the only server I could reasonably join. I would hardly have time for whole missions in WoL and lose my plane over something like "Can you just quickly...". If one makes autolevel a selectable item serverside, fine. Then it is up to the mission designer if he wants the server empty besides matches between sqads.

 

In CloD, there is no autolevel (last I looked) and it is a pain to go out on missions when you can expect to lose your plane over RTI. So I don't really bother with that at all. It could be a nice sim, but to actually play it, it can really be a pain in the neck. But I'm sure, for those 17 or so people living in their basement and only playing that 24/7, the downsides are not as bad.

 

If you go down that road with BoX (that that for good reasons can appeal to a wider player base), you'd be shooting yourself in the foot because you really exclude players that otherwise could join servers.

 

My concern is that it is a trade that rather personal perception of realism with a larger player base. If it was made optional for server operators, it is up to them. I just think it is boring to go online to be alone. There is some realism that is costly in terms of player base, and there is realism that is less so. Taking it away althoghether for... which ones? Any AC but level bombers? would empty the servers. And that I think is not a way to improve MP experience.

 

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55 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

 

Maybe to you it is, to me it is a matter of opinion. I find it advantageous to use auto level for performance reasons. I doubt I'm going significantly faster than I could do manually if I paid attention, but my attention is generally elsewhere in combat. At least I try not to get fixated on anything. I accept that you have a different opinion, based on your experience. If the factual errors in the first post bother you so much, feel free to substitute the first post with my opinion. Because I agree with the bottom line of the OP: The auto-level should in some way be limited, be it a difficulty option, or a speed/power range or to historically present systems. Or a combination of that. I find the function extremely useful for testing, and absolutely necessary for level bombing. It's bollocks to use it in fighters, in particular in online play, and negates disadvantages of aircraft without taking away the advantages. Trim systems add to complexity and weight of the aircraft, reducing performance, for ease of flying. Why bother with 3-axial trim on a P-40 if it can do the same as a no trim I-16 in game - kick out the trim systems and save 50kg of aircraft weight.

I've played Il-2:1946 for years without it, and never missed it.

 

:ph34r:Zero g flight isn't necessarily the flight condition with least total drag, this was often the case in the cl = 0.1 range. Owing to the negative angle of attack necessary for 0 g, causing increasing parasitic drag.:ph34r:

Well, its been demonstrated with the testing in this thread that there is practically no advantage to autolevel in terms of performance. Two posts above this one is a perfect demonstration that autolevel doesn't trim the aircraft and doesn't necessarily get the best speed. So it doesn't take away advantages or disadvantages. It just levels the wings and flies straight at whatever engine/trim/radiator settings you set. Unless someone can do a test that shows it gives a concrete performance advantage at equivalent settings, I don't think this is a matter of opinion anymore.

If it doesn't convey a concrete advantage in combat, and is just a matter of preference, then I don't see how restricting it in multiplayer does anything at all. People who want immersion will fly hands-on or with trim, people who want to give their rudder leg a break will engage autolevel, and nothing of value will be lost or gained.
 

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2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I guess with that I buried the argument that autloevel is "perfect" when you are not.

 

Great, it indeed shows that autolevel affects controls instead of trims. In practice it means that every other fighter except Bf109 flies like a fully trimmed plane, without human errors in control inputs.

 

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

If someone is daft enough to chase you at that distance when he must have realized that you saw him (and you are not a bomber), then he deserves that you tow him over friendly AAA emplacements and you have your fun with him there.

 

MP has lots of players that would chase you all the way to base from the other end of the map.  And if it was not clear, I did not mean the distance of 30 secs between the planes, but the situation like I described before - diving to max speed, knowing what is behind you - nobody could jump you from your six in a 30 second time span in a situation like that.

 

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Removing autolevel just kills the presence of all casual players.

 

Again, OP did not suggest removing autolevel, but the ability to use it as a means to fly at max speed without really having to fly your plane at all.

 

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

It is very easy:

- Especially on planes with a movable stabilo, trim it until it  flies until it goes straight with the stick centered.

- If you have no rudder trim, look down where the ball is and push that to the center with the pedals. Keep it such. Remember, for climbing you  have to depress the other foot. Check the ball!

 

I think that pretty much everybody knows that, just that nobody needs to do it. Can just hit autolevel button and computer does it for you. So no need to practice it either, as a rookie or an expert get the same results. Now we know that for Bf109 would need to set stab trim first, though.

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20 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Great, it indeed shows that autolevel affects controls instead of trims. In practice it means that every other fighter except Bf109 flies like a fully trimmed plane, without human errors in control inputs.

 

 

MP has lots of players that would chase you all the way to base from the other end of the map.  And if it was not clear, I did not mean the distance of 30 secs between the planes, but the situation like I described before - diving to max speed, knowing what is behind you - nobody could jump you from your six in a 30 second time span in a situation like that.

 

 

Again, OP did not suggest removing autolevel, but the ability to use it as a means to fly at max speed without really having to fly your plane at all.

 

 

I think that pretty much everybody knows that, just that nobody needs to do it. Can just hit autolevel button and computer does it for you. So no need to practice it either, as a rookie or an expert get the same results. Now we know that for Bf109 would need to set stab trim first, though.

I just can't see where autolevel gives someone an actual, bonafide advantage except in a long, long tail chase with the few planes with similar top speed...which is a)boring for everyone involved and b)absolute suicide in a combat zone.

If some guy is autoleveling away from me, I'll probably start climbing. If he wants to run all the way to the edge of the map, good for him, I play to have fun. If he turns back after a while, I've got an altitude advantage so now he's worse off than before...he tries to run again, I can catch him this time. And if he doesnt come back, I'm resetting myself for another engagement.

If some guy is autoleveling to catch me, then I use my advantages (if any) to change the situation If I dive better, I dive. If I turn better, slow down a bit and then break hard into him and initiate combat. If I climb better, I initiate a shallow climb and gradually accumulate an energy advantage. If I roll better, I  engage him in rolling scissors. If I have no such advantages, then auto-level guy could probably have caught and killed me, autolevel or not, so its moot. 

And if the rookies are the guys using autolevel to not have to learn the plane, well, eventually they'll use autolevel to catch an ace, and then they're dead because they can't handle their aircraft. All they can do with autolevel is fly as fast as an expert in a straight line. So either the expert would catch you regardless of autolevel, or its a rookie who can only catch you with autolevel and you have meat on the table. 

And all this assumes that autolevel conveys an actual speed advantage. All testing so far shows it doesnt.

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7 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I just can't see where autolevel gives someone an actual, bonafide advantage except in a long, long tail chase

 

And that is the situation we are talking about here. So, why not downgrade the autolevel capability so that both pilots would actually need to fly their planes in such situations?

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These sims take up an enormous amount of time, especially in multiplayer, without a pause, where you have to be there all the time. If you're not a complete basement dweller and you ever have to be away from the computer, even for less than a minute, without this feature you will crash.

 

For Christ's sake- let us take a piss, let us answer the phone or grab a beer. If you're claiming to be disadvantaged by someone flying away on autolevel- you bloody well need some more skills!

 

How about those 2 way radios then? You hardcores can get rid of your Teamspeak/Discord and in-game chat function if you're going to go down this road.

Edited by Mcdaddy
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2 minutes ago, Mcdaddy said:

For Christ's sake- let us take a piss, let us answer the phone or grab a beer. 

 

So, what would prevent you from getting a beer or taking a piss, if autolevel also capped your throttle at 70% of max for example?

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Because it is fine the way it is 

 

Spend the Dev time on something that really needs fixing... 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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4 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, what would prevent you from getting a beer or taking a piss, if autolevel also capped your throttle at 70% of max for example?

 

 Or you could just stop complaining about something that isn’t a problem.

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2 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Spend the Dev time on something that really needs fixing.

 

Ah, right, it would probable take hundreds of hours of dev time to set throttle at 70% max for example, while they set all the other controls to optimal positions. 

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9 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, what would prevent you from getting a beer or taking a piss, if autolevel also capped your throttle at 70% of max for example?

 

Oh yeah, making a gamey feature even gamier would surely help.

 

(Not really though...)

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3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Or you could just stop complaining about something that isn’t a problem.

 

Where am I complaining? Weren't you the brave anti-AI warrior that refused to fly on any server that has anything to do with AI? Have had a change of heart on that or just saw an opportunity to pick a fight again?

2 minutes ago, Space_Ghost said:

Oh yeah, making a gamey feature even gamier would surely help.

 

The gamey feature would remain, but it could no longer be used for similar kind of gamey purposes.

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1 minute ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Where am I complaining? 

 

‘I stand corrected.  Glad to hear that you’re not complaining.  

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All right, now that what it actually does has been somewhat clarified, why does not someone who thinks a change is a good idea run a poll with one or more specific suggestions, such as Kemp's "limit auto-level to a maximum 70% of throttle" or similar.  Kemp, for example [edit: those of us who do not see the point are obviously not going to bother].  See if that gets any genuine support as something to add to the team's to-do list, or if it is just a small number of malcontents.

 

Having the last word here is not going to get you anywhere.

Edited by unreasonable

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On 5/12/2018 at 1:06 PM, StickMan said:

Remove it from multiplayer. If you can't trim an aircraft out to keep it straight and level for at least a minute or two you shouldn't be flying in combat. Better focus on basic airmanship instead. I've manually trimmed aircraft many times to grab a beer or take restroom break during multiplayer. If I can do it so can the rest of you.

 

 

Try it in the 109, or the I-16 with no trims to speak of...

 

Speaking of data, where’s the data confirming people actually abuse this online? Oh wait, OP pulled that idea out of his exhaust pipe...

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4 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

All right, now that what it actually does has been somewhat clarified, why does not someone who thinks a change is a good idea run a poll with one or more specific suggestions, such as Kemp's "limit auto-level to a maximum 70% of throttle" or similar.  Kemp, for example [edit: those of us who do not see the point are obviously not going to bother].  See if that gets any genuine support as something to add to the team's to-do list, or if it is just a small number of malcontents.

 

Having the last word here is not going to get you anywhere.

 

Personally, I can't see the developers taking much notice of a poll, until someone backs up the claims with data. Not that anyone will, because if you actually try it, you'll find the advantage is negligible.

Edited by AndyJWest
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Just now, AndyJWest said:

 

Personally, I can't see the developers taking much notice of a poll, until someone backs up the claims with data. Not that anyone will, because if you actually try it, you'll find the advantage is minimal.

 

I agree - this is simply a suggestion to try to get those arguing for change to do something constructive instead of wasting their lives in this thread. 

 

Come to think of it.... ;)

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20 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Ah, right, it would probable take hundreds of hours of dev time to set throttle at 70% max for example, while they set all the other controls to optimal positions. 

 

I think you underestimate the actual amount of time that would need to be taken to change code and add a feature, make patch notes, explain the new feature etc. along with testing to make sure it does not break other features, at least several 'meetings' would have to be had to implement the change, as I said, personally I would prefer this time spent on real issues or new features 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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There's a forum section for suggestions and the last time I checked there was no requirement for polls or data to just post a suggestion there. I've seen worse than a suggestion to somehow restrict a gamey arcade feature.

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29 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

this is simply a suggestion to try to get those arguing for change to do something constructive instead of wasting their lives in this thread. 

 

I think if someone notices a gamey feature and tries to bring it up to get it changed, is at least somewhat constructive. But why would anyone  waste his life arguing against the change, especially if it has no impact on his own gameplay? Just for the sake of stagnation?

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21 minutes ago, JtD said:

There's a forum section for suggestions and the last time I checked there was no requirement for polls or data to just post a suggestion there. I've seen worse than a suggestion to somehow restrict a gamey arcade feature.

 

That is true - and this thread is not in it. :)   Anyone can post what they like: if, however, you hope to get some king of community consensus that a change is a good thing, it would do no harm to demonstrate that there are a fair number of people who agree with the suggestion.  Hence why, I imagine, that this thread appears in General Discussions, although it does not so far seem to be having that effect.

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