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Auto level autopilot is single engine airplanes which gives additional speed is being abused in multiplayer

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4 hours ago, coconut said:

If I press the key to enter autolevel and nothing happens I know an enemy is near 

 

But then you're already in the enemy's AO.

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I just tried it again. The net speed difference between flying straing "by hand" and on Autolevel ia about exactly 0 (zero) km/h. I don't know what some folks are doing, but especially if you have 3 axis trim, it takes little time to tim it to fly staight hands off, curtesy of a HOTAS (cheat!!!!!!!). Else, you just have to hold it such that it flies straight. I don't know how people can come up with 20 km/h or so difference.

 

I really don't understand how one can make this an issue. All fancy play like rad settings are not done by using autolevel. Fact is, you will always be able to catch up and shoot someone that was just hitting Shift-A. This for the simple reason that you don't set 100% power when going AFK, your engine might have well blown by the time you got domestic stuff sorted. Also you especially don't close rads all the way for the same reason. But someone in pursuit (in a position with reasonable chance to catch you by position) can do that plus he has all the time in the world to shoot you.

 

Autolevel does not make you faster. If it does, practise flying more! You will see then that the autolevel-offender was indeed in a position where you never ever could have had a shot at him anyway, especially if you can't even hit him if he doesn't move at all. End of the story.

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51 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I just tried it again. The net speed difference between flying straing "by hand" and on Autolevel ia about exactly 0 (zero) km/h. I don't know what some folks are doing, but especially if you have 3 axis trim, it takes little time to tim it to fly staight hands off, curtesy of a HOTAS (cheat!!!!!!!). Else, you just have to hold it such that it flies straight. I don't know how people can come up with 20 km/h or so difference.

 

I really don't understand how one can make this an issue. All fancy play like rad settings are not done by using autolevel. Fact is, you will always be able to catch up and shoot someone that was just hitting Shift-A. This for the simple reason that you don't set 100% power when going AFK, your engine might have well blown by the time you got domestic stuff sorted. Also you especially don't close rads all the way for the same reason. But someone in pursuit (in a position with reasonable chance to catch you by position) can do that plus he has all the time in the world to shoot you.

 

Autolevel does not make you faster. If it does, practise flying more! You will see then that the autolevel-offender was indeed in a position where you never ever could have had a shot at him anyway, especially if you can't even hit him if he doesn't move at all. End of the story.

I find it a little harder to fly coordinated in this sim without trim than previous ones I’ve played like il2 1946. Eg In my fave plane the i16 there’s no way to trim so it’s difficult to obtain max speed. But lol, I’m not catching anything in an I 16 anyway. I can see it being more frustrating in a 109 where you expect to be faster than your enemies.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I find it a little harder to fly coordinated in this sim without trim than previous ones I’ve played like il2 1946. Eg In my fave plane the i16 there’s no way to trim so it’s difficult to obtain max speed. But lol, I’m not catching anything in an I 16 anyway. I can see it being more frustrating in a 109 where you expect to be faster than your enemies.

 

 

I find the I16 very benign trim-whise. It takes very little to hold it straight. Not an ill-tempered cow like a P-40. But in that one, you have proper instrumentation in sight and not „in the basement“.

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1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

I just tried it again. The net speed difference between flying straing "by hand" and on Autolevel ia about exactly 0 (zero) km/h. I don't know what some folks are doing, but especially if you have 3 axis trim, it takes little time to tim it to fly staight hands off, curtesy of a HOTAS (cheat!!!!!!!). Else, you just have to hold it such that it flies straight. I don't know how people can come up with 20 km/h or so difference.

 

I really don't understand how one can make this an issue. All fancy play like rad settings are not done by using autolevel. Fact is, you will always be able to catch up and shoot someone that was just hitting Shift-A. This for the simple reason that you don't set 100% power when going AFK, your engine might have well blown by the time you got domestic stuff sorted. Also you especially don't close rads all the way for the same reason. But someone in pursuit (in a position with reasonable chance to catch you by position) can do that plus he has all the time in the world to shoot you.

 

Autolevel does not make you faster. If it does, practise flying more! You will see then that the autolevel-offender was indeed in a position where you never ever could have had a shot at him anyway, especially if you can't even hit him if he doesn't move at all. End of the story.

 

Agreed fully. The only thing autolevel does is allow you to get up and do something without crashing. It doesn't make you any faster unless you're really bad at flying in the first place. In which case, deleting autolevel from MP isn't going to help you one bit. This whole thing is a non-issue.

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I dunno what's going on here. This thread is a river of misinformation and irrationality. Level flight is purely to save your hands from cramping. Many players have to have their hotas on their desk, they don't have a chair mount. WW2 pilots didn't have the luxury of level flight in most of their fighters. We do. It's a nice feature. 

 

And the entire premise of the post makes no sense. YOu do not fly faster in level flight; You fly faster with a nose down, trim down attitude. If you're so derpy you can't figure out how to stop your plane from climbing and slowing you down, maintaining your speed through enemy AO's should be the least of your (and your opponent's) concerns. 

Edited by GridiroN
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Some folk can't see their own bad habits. Blame somebody else. They will continue to visit the forums expressing some misguided notion because they refuse to learn, refuse to see they're doing something wrong. These forums are full of great advice from good pilots. I would suggest reading that advice and learn Instead of casting blame and feeling hard done by.

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I learned two things from this topic

1 - Many people think you can't trim the aircraft with auto level on. That's wrong, you can auto level and perfectly trim your aircraft. Not being busy actually flying it.

2 - Even more people drink so much beer while playing, that they can't hold their liquor until landing. I'm guessing the high age average shows.

 

:drinks:

Edited by JtD
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31 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I find the I16 very benign trim-whise. It takes very little to hold it straight. Not an ill-tempered cow like a P-40. But in that one, you have proper instrumentation in sight and not „in the basement“.

Well I do have a heavy foot on the rudder lol so it might just be me. Gotta work on that.

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34 minutes ago, JtD said:

I learned two things from this topic

1 - Many people think you can't trim the aircraft with auto level on. That's wrong, you can auto level and perfectly trim your aircraft. Not being busy actually flying it.

 

 

:drinks:

 

I would have thought it`d be better to trim your aircraft while NOT auto-levelled. That way you can make a true appraisel of the result. Never done it any other way.

 

Also, it feels a lot more like how a pilot in those days would do it.

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So after four pages this is a non-issue.  :rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

So after four pages this is a non-issue.  :rolleyes:

 

Yup. Entertaining though, in its way. And if I had to illustrate how discussions on this forum usually go to an outsider,  this would be an ideal example. Ticks so many boxes:

 

Starts with an assertion, without evidence.

People pile in, agreeing that something should be done, again without evidence.

Other people disagree, but fail to comment on the lack of evidence.

Someone finally points out the lack of evidence.

Nobody provides any evidence. Or even admits that none has been provided. Instead they carry on demanding that something should be done.

New people arrive, only read the first post, and demand that something should be done.

People use the thread for sniping at other people who don't play the game the way they think it should be played.

People use the thread to unintentionally demonstrate the difference between what they know and what they think they know.

People use the thread to demonstrate how much better at flying they are than everyone else (hint: you can't do this by posting in a forum ;))

New people arrive, carrying popcorn.

 

All that is missing is an accusation that the developers are showing favouritism by allowing everyone to do the same thing as everyone else. 

 

 

 

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There's a lot of stuff you could say is unfair. how about stab and trim adjustment on hotas thumb wheels. You can roll it +100 -100 in 1 second. real pilots have to take their hands off the throttle to adjust but online they just roll it back and forth for extra maneuverability. And I doubt a 109 pilot could even budge the stab at 600 kph let alone. so auto level is not a big deal really. Oh and lets not forget the players who like to climb to 7k + on winter maps since there's no icing issues on wings.  

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Seems that during my own testing today if anything I was very slightly faster flying straight and level manually trimmed out. I'm able to keep the ball centered more closely than auto level seems to. My apologies but this is indeed a non-issue. Unless someone could provide counter evidence.

Edited by StickMan

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Maybe if you keep the eye in the ball and altimeter, you can fly even more coordinated than auto-level can. But if I try to do the same, but looking behind at the same time, it is not so easy. And i cant keep the  altitude precise with out constant correction, maybe its my controls. I dont use autolevel to escape or chase…..

 

17 hours ago, zelil said:

There's a lot of stuff you could say is unfair. how about stab and trim adjustment on hotas thumb wheels. You can roll it +100 -100 in 1 second. real pilots have to take their hands off the throttle to adjust but online they just roll it back and forth for extra maneuverability. And I doubt a 109 pilot could even budge the stab at 600 kph let alone. so auto level is not a big deal really. Oh and lets not forget the players who like to climb to 7k + on winter maps since there's no icing issues on wings.  

 

.....But I use thumpwheel for stabilizer in 109! Is it really unfair,, and if so where should I map the stabilizer then? There is the next button on my throttle, four way button which I use for the pitch trim for all other planes? Or is that unfair too and the proper way is mapping the trims to keyboadr or replica cockpit. The most unfair thing in MP is, I think, that we cant all buy the best hardware.

 

I support icing on wings above 7K!

Edited by VesseL

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2 minutes ago, VesseL said:

...

 

I support icing on wings above 7K!

 

Why only there? You can even have icing while sitting on the tarmac...

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Tarmac icing too, and all other possible icing situations too. I support them all!

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5 minutes ago, VesseL said:

Tarmac icing too, and all other possible icing situations too. I support them all!

 

To be fair now we have the cloud water effect we should defo have icing if the temperatureis correct for it.

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1 hour ago, VesseL said:

 

...i cant keep the  altitude precise with out constant correction, maybe its my controls. I dont use autolevel to escape or chase…..

 

 

Nothing to do with your controls. Real aircraft (without fly-by-wire etc) generally tend to exhibit some degree of long-period oscillation in altitude, even when trimmed for level flight (phugoid oscillation). Likewise, most tend to turn one way another,  even when initially trimmed straight, and often with the turn tightening over time (spiral-mode instability). And these effects are likely to be more noticeable in aircraft where manoeuvrability is paramount. The sim does a good job of reflecting these sort of effects in my opinion.

Edited by AndyJWest
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2 hours ago, VesseL said:

Tarmac icing too, and all other possible icing situations too. I support them all!

 

Lol could you imagine the complaints from people that could not taxi or take off because of icy tarmac?


Anyway, this topic is annoying me. If you are getting caught up by or cant catch someone because they are on auto level you are doing something wrong.

Edited by AeroAce
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I personally would like the ability as a server admin to turn the autolevel off except for the aircraft which historically had it.

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20 minutes ago, ACG_RED_Shadepiece said:

I personally would like the ability as a server admin to turn the autolevel off except for the aircraft which historically had it.

 

I dont have a problem with that although I would not fly that server. What is getting my goat is that people think it gives a speed advantage.

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One thing that this thread hasn't yet featured is the "me and my squad or the even more vague "everyone knows" argument. Those are my favorite threads. Everyone I know in my squad, me included, knows it.

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I have tested auto level and it is not a magic speed up button. If you are in anything but perfect trim, it will slow u down!!!!!!!!!!!!

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2 hours ago, Rjel said:

One thing that this thread hasn't yet featured is the "me and my squad or the even more vague "everyone knows" argument. Those are my favorite threads. Everyone I know in my squad, me included, knows it.

 

What about the “where’s your stats bro?” argument?  Devastating!

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5 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Can somebody explain to me how this is any different from flying coordinated by hand?

It’s not. Tests appear to have borne that out.

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I can see the advantage the German side has and why the Russian side would not agree with auto-level seeing that 95% of the German planes flying are 109's.

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15 minutes ago, SCG_wtornado said:

I can see the advantage the German side has and why the Russian side would not agree with auto-level seeing that 95% of the German planes flying are 109's.

 

Ugh the German bias in this game is rampant!

 

/s

 

15 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

What about the “where’s your stats bro?” argument?  Devastating!

 

Catch me on Berloga and say that to my face!

Edited by Space_Ghost

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32 minutes ago, Space_Ghost said:

 

Ugh the German bias in this game is rampant!

 

/s

 

 

Catch me on Berloga and say that to my face!

Ha! I myself am almost impossible to catch on Berloga!

Admittedly, that's because its rather hard to hit a burning wreck spiraling into the ground at 700 km/h, but its still technically accurate!

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18 hours ago, ACG_RED_Shadepiece said:

I personally would like the ability as a server admin to turn the autolevel off except for the aircraft which historically had it.

Very much agree with you Shadepiece.

 

I would readily fly a server with such and option in place.  Also, my preference is technical historical accuracy as far as is reasonably practicable for the aircraft concerned.  I don't use auto level for aircraft that did not have anything like that sort of capability; to me that's reasonable.  On a side note though, I do wish the developers would give us an in-flight map what we could open that did not take up the whole screen so I have to fly blind while reading it, LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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7 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 On a side note though, I do wish the developers would give us an in-flight map what we could open that did not take up the whole screen so I have to fly blind while reading it, LOL.

The old IL-2 1946 in-flight map would be perfect.

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Almost nobody is grasping the actual point being made by the OP. This is completely irrelevant to singleplayer. This is not about removing autolevel features from the game. Nor does anybody want to make it harder for you to grab your fifth Miller Lite without lawndarting into the steppe. 

 

 

OP wants a solution to a very specific problem in multiplayer. In a competitive setting, people can use the autolevel function to gain a slight advantage over an opponent who doesn't use it. This is possible because the autolevel function basically acts as "press shift + A to instantly toggle perfect trim and aerodynamics".

 

 

This creates many combat situations where the smartest decision is to opportunistically toggle autolevel, rather than to fly the plane yourself. The most obvious example is during escape or pursuit, where every possible ounce of speed is needed for survival (or victory). Autolevel will immediately orient your plane in the most aerodynamic configuration possible, and perfectly maintain your heading. The pilot who exploits autolevel will enjoy more efficient and faster flight than the pilot who tries to uses trim or his stick - human control is naturally imperfect and choppy; we wander slightly, we overreact to wind, etc. That can mean the difference between escaping and getting shot down.

 

 

By using autolevel, you're hitting a button and temporarily handing control of your plane over to a Terminator who has one job - go as fast as possible in a straight line. Going in a straight line sounds easy, but doing it optimally is actually hard! Trim settings take a while to dial in for a given airspeed, if they're even available for the relevant axes in your plane. Using the stick instead will also result in slightly inefficient control, for obvious reasons. Imperfect rudder control means that you're going to be losing speed to slippage, especially in planes like the Bf109. Even if you're up to the task of near-perfect coordinated flight, nerves or stress might affect your abilities in a given situation. Autolevel strips all of this away for you and, like I said, hands the stick to a Terminator.

 

 

Naturally, there are other situations where this is advantageous. For example: you've just dived, and are choosing between targets to attack - or whether to attack at all. You can engage autolevel to perfectly maintain as much energy as is mathematically possible, buying you more time to make your decision. Under human control, uncoordinated flight (i.e. slip) and imperfect angles would mean that you'd bleed more energy and therefore be left with less speed and potential altitude. That might strip you of your tactical advantage that would have been retained had you used autolevel.

 

 

Selective engagement of an idealized, instant autopilot feature to squeeze out a competitive advantage in combat feels very "gamey" and inappropriate for a simulator. You see people referring to it as "boost mode" not because it magically increases the top speed of your plane, but because it essentially bestows perfect flying skill upon the pilot (within limited parameters), letting you immediately maximize your plane's potential in a way you wouldn't be able to naturally.

 

 

I think we can all agree that, this being a combat flight simulator, it is desirable that the players actually fly their planes during combat! Furthermore, it limits the degree to which skill can help one pilot to defeat another - one pilot's better ability to control his plane is partially neutralized by the fact that a simple keybind will lead to the computer handling it for you - optimally.

 

 

I think we can also agree that it isn't the end of the world, and the advantage it bestows is fairly limited. But to the competitive player, features like this can strip some of the enjoyment out of what should be a battle of skill. It isn't fair to say "if you don't like it, don't use it" - because even if you refrain, others will still use it against you. And to the competitive-minded person who wants to win, it introduces a conflict between enjoying the game (by flying skillfully) and maximally exploiting an unrealistic game mechanic.

 

 

Naturally, while some of us would prefer that autolevel didn't factor in to intense fighter engagements, we still want the option to use it during flights to/from the airbase, during boring moments, when flying bombers, etc. That is why you see suggestions like "limit throttle while in autolevel" or "disable autolevel when an enemy is within X meters distance" - they're attempts at a compromise solution that would keep autolevel around as a convenient tool, without allowing it to be manipulated in close combat. Any such solution would have pros and cons, and potentially be vulnerable to exploitation itself - player proximity is the obvious example here - but I think that some kind of workaround would be healthy for competition.

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text. It was frustrating to read four pages of people talking past each other; I wanted to do my best to clarify the issue.

Edited by grambo
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1 hour ago, grambo said:

Almost nobody is grasping the actual point being made by the OP. This is completely irrelevant to singleplayer. This is not about removing autolevel features from the game. Nor does anybody want to make it harder for you to grab your fifth Miller Lite without lawndarting into the steppe. 

 

 

OP wants a solution to a very specific problem in multiplayer. In a competitive setting, people can use the autolevel function to gain a slight advantage over an opponent who doesn't use it. This is possible because the autolevel function basically acts as "press shift + A to instantly toggle perfect trim and aerodynamics".

 

 

This creates many combat situations where the smartest decision is to opportunistically toggle autolevel, rather than to fly the plane yourself. The most obvious example is during escape or pursuit, where every possible ounce of speed is needed for survival (or victory). Autolevel will immediately orient your plane in the most aerodynamic configuration possible, and perfectly maintain your heading. The pilot who exploits autolevel will enjoy more efficient and faster flight than the pilot who tries to uses trim or his stick - human control is naturally imperfect and choppy; we wander slightly, we overreact to wind, etc. That can mean the difference between escaping and getting shot down.

 

 

By using autolevel, you're hitting a button and temporarily handing control of your plane over to a Terminator who has one job - go as fast as possible in a straight line. Going in a straight line sounds easy, but doing it optimally is actually hard! Trim settings take a while to dial in for a given airspeed, if they're even available for the relevant axes in your plane. Using the stick instead will also result in slightly inefficient control, for obvious reasons. Imperfect rudder control means that you're going to be losing speed to slippage, especially in planes like the Bf109. Even if you're up to the task of near-perfect coordinated flight, nerves or stress might affect your abilities in a given situation. Autolevel strips all of this away for you and, like I said, hands the stick to a Terminator.

 

 

Naturally, there are other situations where this is advantageous. For example: you've just dived, and are choosing between targets to attack - or whether to attack at all. You can engage autolevel to perfectly maintain as much energy as is mathematically possible, buying you more time to make your decision. Under human control, uncoordinated flight (i.e. slip) and imperfect angles would mean that you'd bleed more energy and therefore be left with less speed and potential altitude. That might strip you of your tactical advantage that would have been retained had you used autolevel.

 

 

Selective engagement of an idealized, instant autopilot feature to squeeze out a competitive advantage in combat feels very "gamey" and inappropriate for a simulator. You see people referring to it as "boost mode" not because it magically increases the top speed of your plane, but because it essentially bestows perfect flying skill upon the pilot (within limited parameters), letting you immediately maximize your plane's potential in a way you wouldn't be able to naturally.

 

 

I think we can all agree that, this being a combat flight simulator, it is desirable that the players actually fly their planes during combat! Furthermore, it limits the degree to which skill can help one pilot to defeat another - one pilot's better ability to control his plane is partially neutralized by the fact that a simple keybind will lead to the computer handling it for you - optimally.

 

 

I think we can also agree that it isn't the end of the world, and the advantage it bestows is fairly limited. But to the competitive player, features like this can strip some of the enjoyment out of what should be a battle of skill. It isn't fair to say "if you don't like it, don't use it" - because even if you refrain, others will still use it against you. And to the competitive-minded person who wants to win, it introduces a conflict between enjoying the game (by flying skillfully) and maximally exploiting an unrealistic game mechanic.

 

 

Naturally, while some of us would prefer that autolevel didn't factor in to intense fighter engagements, we still want the option to use it during flights to/from the airbase, during boring moments, when flying bombers, etc. That is why you see suggestions like "limit throttle while in autolevel" or "disable autolevel when an enemy is within X meters distance" - they're attempts at a compromise solution that would keep autolevel around as a convenient tool, without allowing it to be manipulated in close combat. Any such solution would have pros and cons, and potentially be vulnerable to exploitation itself - player proximity is the obvious example here - but I think that some kind of workaround would be healthy for competition.

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text. It was frustrating to read four pages of people talking past each other; I wanted to do my best to clarify the issue.

Well the testing shows that there’s little if any advantage anyway. 

 

Unless you’ve got some test results showing auto level granting a bonus to speed over a manually trimmed aircraft this is all moot.

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I think this thread must set a new record. Not only does it fail to provide the slightest bit of verifiable evidence for the OP's claim: that using level autopilot gives a speed advantage of "5-20 km/h depending on altitude", it also fails to provide the usual 'anecdotal evidence' that people resort to when data can't be found (or can be found, but doesn't match the claim). I wonder whether this is because "to escape combat, fly as straight and level as possible" doesn't often feature in ace pilot's memoirs? ;)

 

 

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Clearly, the advantage you gain depends on your ability to fly coordinated. There's nothing you can do better than auto-level, and it requires 100% workload, if you want to do it nearly as well. This should be self evident, and if I stated, I'd lose 12 km/h average by flying manually level in a combat zone, you could take it as a fact. There's no way you could reproduce it, because you've got no idea how well I can fly coordinated while frequently checking my high five to seven for a couple of seconds. And if you say you lose no speed at all, well, congrats and fair enough. But you're not everybody, and neither am I. So imho, the call for evidence is ridiculous, because this is much more a piloting issue, not a technical debate.

 

If you've never read pilots memoirs that mention running straight and level in order to escape, you haven't really read many. Personally I've read only a few, but I do remember it from some. I've also read quite a few combat reports, and it's in there, too. By the nature of combat reports, mostly unsuccessful attempts, though.

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