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Li-2/C-47

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So I was flying around with the Ju-52 recently, and as we may eventually get the Li-2/C-47 at some point I was thinking of what kind of loadouts/modifications we might see. 

 

As it currently stands in the Ju-52 we have:

 

Cargo

Supply canisters

Paratroops

Gunner

 

Hopefully we see more uses for the Ju-52, because it is great fun to fly.

 

As the Li-2/C-47 had a variety of roles, we could see:

 

Cargo

Supply canisters

US/British paras

Bombs (USSR)

Staff officers

Gunner (USSR)

 

Im interested to hear your thoughts. 

 

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Bring it on :cool:, but I am worried I may be overly critical :) great to see the Li-2 bomber, it was used quite a lot at Stalingrad. Hope the Po-2 has success and leads to  many C-47/Li-2 variants

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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I am also hoping the Po-2 is successful so they get permission to do the Li-2 but I am not sure I want it doing things that the Ju52 cannot. Just allow it to drop paras & supplies in maps where the jU52 can. Allowing it to also be used as a slow poorly defended light bomber  is not worth the trouble it will cause on the forums.   We will get enough earache over having a Po-2 when there is no German equivalent.   I know the Allies have had no JU52 equivalent all this time but....

 

It would have been so much better if 1C had done the Li-2 immediately after finishing the JU52 then held back the Po-2 until a German equivalent was also ready.

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I have no beef with the Li-2 dropping bombs, but I agree that parity of capability is important between the axis and allies.

 

If one gets a transport plane, I think the other should also have one. And hence I hope that the Axis gets a recon /arty spotting aircraft at some point in the future to match the Po-2.

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37 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

I am also hoping the Po-2 is successful so they get permission to do the Li-2 but I am not sure I want it doing things that the Ju52 cannot. Just allow it to drop paras & supplies in maps where the jU52 can.

That's for the mission designers to define. So having the possibility to carry bombs would just bring more tools for the mission designers, doesn't mean that the bombs need to be available every time.

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3 minutes ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

That's for the mission designers to define. So having the possibility to carry bombs would just bring more tools for the mission designers, doesn't mean that the bombs need to be available every time.

 

Good point. It wont stop the complaints though :-)

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25 minutes ago, Custard said:

I have no beef with the Li-2 dropping bombs, but I agree that parity of capability is important between the axis and allies.

 

If one gets a transport plane, I think the other should also have one. And hence I hope that the Axis gets a recon /arty spotting aircraft at some point in the future to match the Po-2.

I don't think po2 will be premium on its own. They always did 2 premium at once, so pretty sure germans will get something too with po2.

 

53 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

I am not sure I want it doing things that the Ju52 cannot

Well, IL-2 has bunch of anti tank small bombs and germans don't. Russian don't have dive bombers while germans do. (maybe pe2 can be a little of dive bomber but still it's not ju87). So i don't mind it, making everything equal is wrong, devs should do it like it was in real life. I don't see how few bombs on Li-2 could break balance or something. It would probably be worst bomber than pe2 or A20 anyway.

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Bring it on :cool:, but I am worried I may be overly critical :) great to see the Li-2 bomber, it was used quite a lot at Stalingrad. Hope the Po-2 has success and leads to  many C-47/Li-2 variants

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

Au contraire, I would think it would be most beneficial to have a Dak pilot critique it should it eventuate.

 

As an aside my father flew them with cargo and paratroopers in WWII as an RAAF pilot operating out of the UK.

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1 hour ago, InProgress said:

I don't think po2 will be premium on its own. They always did 2 premium at once, so pretty sure germans will get something too with po2.

 

I am confident that the Germans will not be getting a recon plane at the same time as the Po-2 is released. I'd love a Fw189 but it ain't happening any time soon.

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33 minutes ago, Custard said:

 

I am confident that the Germans will not be getting a recon plane at the same time as the Po-2 is released. I'd love a Fw189 but it ain't happening any time soon.

Probably another 109 ;)

 

But i think it would be great chance for 110F2

Edited by InProgress

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I hate to be the stick in the mud here, but the C47/Li-2 will be another plane that the majority of players wont purchase and that almost no one, except the few fans of it here, fly.

 

Full disclosure, I own the Ju-52.  I have flown it once, offline, and after that I wondered why I spent the money, other than to support the dev team.

 

My stance now is, instead of pushing for another large, modeling intensive transport that next to no one will buy or fly, why not add two single seaters that will be flown?

Or another flyable Allied twin engine bomber?

 

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

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12 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

Just because you don't like it does not mean it's a waste of time and money. There is lots of people who like ju52. And if devs will start making Li-2 and other transport for pacific or west front. Then it was success and they find it worthly to make another one. Or you have data of sales and you know that "majority of players did not purchase it and that almost no one, except the few fans did"

 

Tbh it feels like you are this kind of people who will be against anything that they don't like because instead of 101th fighter devs would make 1 transport instead and it would hurt you :mellow:

Edited by InProgress
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14 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, but the C47/Li-2 will be another plane that the majority of players wont purchase and that almost no one, except the few fans of it here, fly.

My stance now is, instead of pushing for another large, modeling intensive transport that next to no one will buy or fly, why not add two single seaters that will be flown?

Or another flyable Allied twin engine bomber?

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

Haha that was funny!

 

To be serious, I do not think the bomb loadout for the Li2 would be a problem in multiplayer "balance". Because it would be another bomber. But as their are much better bomber, it would probably not be used much. But still, it would be another option for vvs.

Edited by 1./TG1_Nil

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17 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, but the C47/Li-2 will be another plane that the majority of players wont purchase and that almost no one, except the few fans of it here, fly.

 

Full disclosure, I own the Ju-52.  I have flown it once, offline, and after that I wondered why I spent the money, other than to support the dev team.

 

My stance now is, instead of pushing for another large, modeling intensive transport that next to no one will buy or fly, why not add two single seaters that will be flown?

Or another flyable Allied twin engine bomber?

 

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

 

Your opinion is probably based on how and where *you* fly.    I fly mostly online and in servers where transport is an important part of winning the map.   Currently Finnish allows airfields to be captured by dropping paratroopers from a JU52 while the Allies can only capture an airfield by landing a special PE2 which is obviously harder to manage when there are enemies there as well.    In Coconut the Axis can drop re-inforcements at an ongoing battle  to increase the chances of winning.  There is no Allied equivalent. In fact the whole ethos behind the Coconut server is based on supplies.

 

I also feel that when both sides have a nearly equal transport ability we will see the server designers using them even more as part of the server mechanic.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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9 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, but the C47/Li-2 will be another plane that the majority of players wont purchase and that almost no one, except the few fans of it here, fly.

 

Full disclosure, I own the Ju-52.  I have flown it once, offline, and after that I wondered why I spent the money, other than to support the dev team.

 

My stance now is, instead of pushing for another large, modeling intensive transport that next to no one will buy or fly, why not add two single seaters that will be flown?

Or another flyable Allied twin engine bomber?

 

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

 

I guess it all depends on how much, if any, money the Ju52 made. If it was profitable I'd love to see a C47. Not least because it's an important part of representing every theatre in WW2. If we never saw another unarmed plane after that I wouldn't mind. But I'll the C-47/Li-2/Showa L2D is an important aircraft to have in any WW2 simulation.

 

But if it's not profitable as a standalone collector plane it may well have to wait till a market garden themed battle.

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Well I'm saving up to purchased that Junker, in hopes of getting the C-47 (and my favorite Showa L2D) on to the collector edition!

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Ah I can not wait to fly it! The best thing I love is that it will serve for ALL fronts! (even a korean front... )

We have so much fun with Tante Ju on MP server, the addition of the Po and the Li will make things even more fun and interesting !

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58 minutes ago, Custard said:

 

I guess it all depends on how much, if any, money the Ju52 made. If it was profitable I'd love to see a C47. Not least because it's an important part of representing every theatre in WW2. If we never saw another unarmed plane after that I wouldn't mind. But I'll the C-47/Li-2/Showa L2D is an important aircraft to have in any WW2 simulation.

 

But if it's not profitable as a standalone collector plane it may well have to wait till a market garden themed battle.

 

Well, BOBP is just that. It may very well include the area of operations of Market Garden, as it has been stated that the time period of the expansions begins (rather coincidentally) on the 17th Sept. 1944. So in my eyes this is the perfect time period for a release of the C-47. 

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Sometimes I scratch my head and think, are we grown up adults here, or are we children?

I cannot fathom why people moan about 'any' aircraft that is produced for the game... it's like a bloody kids playground in here sometimes.

If the plane flew in theatre, if it's relevant to the timescale and was used in appreciable numbers, then there is no reason why any aircraft should not be introduced.

 

Instead we have to be careful about 'complaints'... we need to be 'balanced'... we have to worry about 'numbers' of people that would fly it... 

There is no 'balance' or 'fairness' in war... aren't we trying to simulate WWII aviation combat?... stop worrying about, ''we should have one because they have''... ''I won't fly it, and not many others will either'' (kids playground stuff again).

 

We have all got different wants and needs for this game, and that's alright, but we should be thankful if 'any' new model is introduced and expands the plane set regardless of what it is...

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As well as regular cargo, I also want to see overload-cargo as well.  A dangerously overweight aircraft that I have to nurse on its way.  One that will earn me extra points when I successfully complete the mission. 

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19 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

As well as regular cargo, I also want to see overload-cargo as well.  A dangerously overweight aircraft that I have to nurse on its way.  One that will earn me extra points when I successfully complete the mission. 

I have read about fw200 that was taking wounded out of stalingrad, he tooks big "cargo" of them, during climbing after take of they all slide down to tail, it was pushed hard up and flipped and crashed. Everyone died :|

Edited by InProgress

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4 hours ago, Junjun_Nikurasu said:

Well I'm saving up to purchased that Junker, in hopes of getting the C-47 (and my favorite Showa L2D) on to the collector edition!

 

No need to save up. Check your PM/e-mail.

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I would like to see cargoes of wounded troops for evacuation/aerial ambulance missions. Tante Ju is a hoot to fly and could carry 12 stretcher cases, IIRC. This would be a nice (and I believe, easy to incorporate) feature.

Edited by chris455
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5 hours ago, InProgress said:

 

Tbh it feels like you are this kind of people who will be against anything that they don't like because instead of 101th fighter devs would make 1 transport instead and it would hurt you :mellow:

 

Projecting a bit too much here methinks.

 

Nothing about the Ju-52 or any other possible transport aircraft "hurt me".  It's all simply an economic equation. 

 

What will help the bottom line of the game studio more?   A non combat (except for Li-2) aircraft whose sales I still think are quite small, and no I don't have proof of that, but then neither do you have proof otherwise, or a combat aircraft that will sell in larger numbers?

 

For instance, you cannot argue that more people will purchase the C-47 then would purchase a flyable B-25 or B-26, or Tu-2.   Which one will make more money for the studio, and hence help with the longevity of the project?

 

That is the point I am making here.  

 

It has nothing to do with emotion or feelings being hurt.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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Without seeing sales figures and dev time allocation, it's hard to make meaningful conclusions. 

 

A B-25 or B-26 might sell more than a C-47, but it would require more work to model the 5+ crew positions. I have no doubt that there are other 'behind the scenes' considerations that affect the aircraft choices. For example, the Po-2 isn't a typical game combat aircraft, yet it is being developed. 

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We need AI only aircraft like we had in the old sim. The B-25 is a good start. Make em flyable later if resources permit.

 

In the editor in 46 I could reach into the box and pull out almost any aircraft you could shake a stick at for environmental/scenery purposes. Making these was time well spent IMHO. But that was a different time.

 

I'd like to see a few more creep in as time permits. The He-111 or Ju-52 flight model can be pasted in place for any larger 2 engine aircraft...they don't need cockpits.

 

I think the time investment is still great enough however that we'll not see many AI only AC. Just how it is.

 

Gimme the Emily to shoot at though if you can't give it to me to fly. ;)

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Even if this type of planes arent best selling, it's good that devs do them. You should realize that some people aren't into fighters and they would never buy this game all other expansions if not planes they like would be in game. So even if transport or other non combat,  maybe weak bombers that can carry one bomb or mostly useless in combat (hs129) aren't best sellers and another fighter for youa would brings more sells does not mean it would bring more money. If this game would be pure fighter playground I would not touch it and all the expansions and premium planes I bought wouldn't not give devs single $. 

 

Just because something gives more sell does not mean more money. Different planes bring different people to game and that brings way more money for devs than another fighter would. Think in big picture.

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Cool thread. There was another thread like this for the Ju 52 way back. (LINK)

 

 

Here are some mod suggestions for both the Ju 52 and Li-2:

  • The Li-2 needs cargo, supply-cannisters and paratroops, just like the Ju-52 of course
  • Fuel drums as cargo.
  • Medical payload (wounded patients, evacuees, medical personnel, etc.)
  • Waist-gun positions (1 pair for Ju 52, up to 3-pairs for C-47)
  • Pontoons (both floats for the C-47 and the Ju 52 seaplane)
  • Bombs (although I don't see this as important, given the better bombers in the game)

 

 

There are also a few mods that would be nice on the Ju 52. Not sure if they existed for the Li-2 though.

  • Forward gun positions (A-Stand "Haube")
  • Lower gun positions (Gondeltopf)
  • Minesweeper degausing ring

 

But...

 

The single most important thing needed for the Li-2 and Ju 52 are points for transport.

 

This needs to be in the core game mechanics and also in the statistics processing software by Vaal. As has been said on multiple occasions, you can get as many points sitting on the runway for 5 seconds in a 109 with your engine off, as you can flying a dangerous 2-hour transport mission. When you introduce points, you introduce a motivation for flying. Despite countless people who fly for the sake of it, there are also a lot of pilots who are motivated by the score and will fly to improve their point tally. Putting points into the transport system allows servers to better keep track of supply and attribute credit for successful logistics accordingly. Just think how successful this game would be if there was no score awarded for shooting down another plane?

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, but the C47/Li-2 will be another plane that the majority of players wont purchase and that almost no one, except the few fans of it here, fly.

 

Full disclosure, I own the Ju-52.  I have flown it once, offline, and after that I wondered why I spent the money, other than to support the dev team.

 

My stance now is, instead of pushing for another large, modeling intensive transport that next to no one will buy or fly, why not add two single seaters that will be flown?

Or another flyable Allied twin engine bomber?

 

Transports are an eccentricity in computer flight simulation, regardless of their importance in real world military operations, and frankly are a waste of precious developer man hours.

 

I appreciate the point about non-profitability of a transport plane. We will never know the real sales, but my guess based on the number of forum posts is that the Bf 109 G-6 has out-sold the Ju 52/3m g3e. Of course the latest glamour fighter is going to outsell a transporter.

 

However, even if someone is not interested in flying a Ju 52 or Li-2, it doesn't mean that they do not benefit from having them available. Transports, recons (also desperately lacking in this game), liaison, ferrying, and various other roles help seed the servers. They provide a broad aviation ecosystem for everyone. Many is the time that Axis pilots have flown alongside my Ju 52 or have commented on it as I've taxied out at their airfield. And no doubt Soviets pilots have taken glee in finding Ju 52s to shoot down. These ancillary roles provide an environment allowing mission builders and campaign designers to create engaging, historical re-creations, rather than yet-another-dogfight server. And transport aircraft allows the IL2-series to reach out to the civil-aviation simmers who are quite a large market.

 

Currently have have (depending on how you count it), 31 fighters, 7 bombers, 7 ground attack and 1 transport in the existing/announced planes for BoS/BoM/BoK/BoBo/collector.

Implementation of a Li-2/C-47 might not seem like a sales-winner in the short term, but I would definitely argue that the inclusion of this single Allied transport will be deeply beneficial to the game as a whole.

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4 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

We need AI only aircraft like we had in the old sim. The B-25 is a good start. Make em flyable later if resources permit.

 

I think that would be the quickest way to flesh out the sim. Maybe the cockpits could be farmed out to a 3rd party sometime later.

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We definitely don't need planes without cockpits, planes with other plane's FM and all that. This simulator has high standards of aircraft modeling, it's not 1946 and it's not some arcade game. 

 

I would definitely love to see Li-2/C-47 and other planes, but modeled per BoX standards, even if it means that we have to wait longer.

Edited by Arthur-A
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9 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

We definitely don't need planes without cockpits, planes with other plane's FM and all that. This simulator has high standards of aircraft modeling, it's not 1946 and it's not some arcade game.

 

With respect you don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking AI scenery - don't pretend you know the difference, especially viewing externally,  between a B-25 and a Blenheim flight model. For this purpose they are interchangeable and I can promise you that I'm not the only one who agrees.

 

You also don't need a cockpit for an AI only aircraft - let's not be silly.

 

In any case the point is largely moot.

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4 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

With respect you don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking AI scenery - don't pretend you know the difference, especially viewing externally,  between a B-25 and a Blenheim flight model. For this purpose they are interchangeable and I can promise you that I'm not the only one who agrees.

Well, the difference may not be that obvious, especially between the two aircraft that don't exist in the game yet ;) (hoping to see them both eventually). I might not know what I'm talking about, but as far as I understand, it's not as easy as "take He-111 FM, attach it to a B-25 3D model = voila, you got yourself a brand new plane!". That would probably involve some additional temporary solutions which would be ditched over time in order to be replaced with a proper one - I assume that no one would be ok with such band-aid being left as it is.

 

I know that devs are planning to make B-25 non flyable at first, but I don't think that it means implementing a temporary simplified flight model.

Again, the Il-2 1946 has all those planes and more, yet we're passionate about BoX. Isn't the advanced FM one of the major reasons why? Do we want BoX to have mid 00s level of simulation?

As for the AI, the AI here does actually control the aircraft and has the same FM as the player. Yeah it's not perfect at this moment, but it has a great potential in the future.

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When/if Li-2 is added, it would also be nice to get the logging improved as regards of paradrops etc. Only then can the stats system and multiplayer server scripts fully utilize them.

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2 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

Do we want BoX to have mid 00s level of simulation?

 

Let's not exaggerate here. Nobody is calling for 1946-style Frankenplanes. 

DragonflyN_00.thumb.jpg.bc717f733d2f35036411b8fc1930486a.jpg

 

Tuning flight models and creating cockpits is not easy. Players do complain when the performance of a fighter isn't within approximately 5% of historical data. Nobody is willing to stare at an ugly cockpit texture for hours.

 

For AI, especially AI bombers, none of that matters. In real gameplay, it is irrelevant that an AI B-25 might climb a bit too quickly or turn too slowly. 

 

Despite the possibility of inaccurate FMs and missing cockpits, AI aircraft are very useful for mission. AI ground units in Il-2 are relatively primitive, yet they are an important part of the game. There are no calls for their removal.  Why should aircraft be treated differently?

 

Fortunately, the B-25 plan makes it seem that the developers agree. Hopefully further successes will make the Li-2/C-47 possible. 

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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Yeh, nothing is going to create greater depth of gameplay like one more fighter.

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Feathered, we have both been around the IL2 world for a very long time.   I want what will keep IL2 going for an even longer time.  Right now that is what should be most important.

Our little gaming genre is just that, little.  The folks that hold the money bags that keep our game type running (1C) are used to very large player base titles.  This means that stable income from the IL2 series should be the very first priority, not only to keep the dev team and Jason fed, but to keep the corporate guys in Moscow happy, so they continue to support small house projects like combat flight simulation.  This is the entire crux of my contention that, for now, we need to focus on areas that will bring in the most money, so that we can still have our genre at all.   It's probably one of the big reasons why the Pacific has been pushed back.  Us USA and ANZAC players are far fewer in number than the Russian/European players, so it makes sense to go to Europe first, for the money.

 

Believe me, I have a list of off the wall, flying oddities that I would love to see in the sim, but I know they would be small sellers at best.  The sim needs a firmer, and deeper foundation before we go off on tangents.   The core of the sim is combat.   You cannot deny that.

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36 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Feathered, we have both been around the IL2 world for a very long time.   I want what will keep IL2 going for an even longer time.  Right now that is what should be most important.

Our little gaming genre is just that, little.  The folks that hold the money bags that keep our game type running (1C) are used to very large player base titles.  This means that stable income from the IL2 series should be the very first priority, not only to keep the dev team and Jason fed, but to keep the corporate guys in Moscow happy, so they continue to support small house projects like combat flight simulation.  This is the entire crux of my contention that, for now, we need to focus on areas that will bring in the most money, so that we can still have our genre at all.   It's probably one of the big reasons why the Pacific has been pushed back.  Us USA and ANZAC players are far fewer in number than the Russian/European players, so it makes sense to go to Europe first, for the money.

 

Believe me, I have a list of off the wall, flying oddities that I would love to see in the sim, but I know they would be small sellers at best.  The sim needs a firmer, and deeper foundation before we go off on tangents.   The core of the sim is combat.   You cannot deny that.

 

Not really sure I agree with this. Although I will have played most of the IL2 franchise games at some point or other, none of them really gripped me until VR was available. This changed everything. I don't care what it is I just love to fly it. Even had some cool adventures with the JU52 in MP servers.
 

I think the C47 would be a wonderful addition to IL2, and it, or something like it is needed to bring balance to MP scenarios so that both sides have the potential to drop paras, and supplies can be delivered by supply planes rather than bodged bombers.

Also having watched all six seasons of ice pilots recently, I'd love the opportunity to fly around in one.

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Our little gaming genre is just that, little.  The folks that hold the money bags that keep our game type running (1C) are used to very large player base titles.  This means that stable income from the IL2 series should be the very first priority, not only to keep the dev team and Jason fed, but to keep the corporate guys in Moscow happy, so they continue to support small house projects like combat flight simulation.  This is the entire crux of my contention that, for now, we need to focus on areas that will bring in the most money, so that we can still have our genre at all.

 

I think Jason is having a bit different approach about these planes. An external team will do the Po-2 and Jason will evaluate, based on that experience, if it is worth going foward with this approach in building that type of planes. It will take some 1CGS resources of course, to give them support, do the flight models and other stuff, but it could still be viewed as a project that does not necessarily have to bring in loads of money by itself, but just by breaking even could rise the value of BoX, offering more content and more things to do - possibilities to simulate WWII more, like in the old IL2 1946, and that way attracting more new players and keeping old players around. 

That being said, I am a bit surprised that the price of Ju-52 is higher than other collector planes. 

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One thing I have read is that the Li2 was actually very hard to reverse engineer because of the imperial vs metric system to the extent that it was considered to be a new design in many respects. So you u would need two different models which ain't gonna happen. I suppose we could play make believe and I would be happy but some might not be.

Edited by AeroAce

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