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Air Combat Tutorials,TIR Profile, Angle Off Charts - Updated 19 June 2020

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10 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

I'm switching out how my thumbnails look a little bit as well.

Slick Req, slick! 

Edited by Raptorattacker
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Can you make a video about (fast) turning without tumbling over. (a sudden 90-180 degrees Axial movement initiated by the plane (in a few seconds)if you try to make a (to ?) short turn. Some planes warn by shaking but some just flip over and often become uncontrollable. I learned how to get out of a (slow)spin after stalling but I have no clue how to react to these flips. They most times end in very very fast uncontrollable spins. (in the P47 it happens every flight)

 

I think I do something very basic wrong but I do not know what. Could it be related to coordinated turning ?   

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That is exactly the problem. As soon as I am at the point between 1:01 and 1:03  it goes wrong. 

It suddenly rotates on its own until I hang up side down. It feels like tipping over. And if I try to stop it or rotate back, most times it reacts very slow and then suddenly rotates very fast the opposite direction and then it goes down. In the Spitfire I often can get it back under control just before I crash. But f.i. in the Stuka or even worse, the P47 I crash 95% of the time.  It feels like a rodeo horse with a very bad temper. 

This happens also in some FC planes but there it seldom ends in a crash. 

 

I must learn to fly first before I try manoeuvres like this. I can fly around but only if I take time, so not in combat. I fly my Spitfire most times because I like turn fighting and it is rather forgiving while doing that, but I want to be able to fly all planes so I think I miss some basics. The YT videos I watched all skip the basics about how to combine rudder, throttle and roll. 

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5 hours ago, pa4tim said:

Can you make a video about (fast) turning without tumbling over. (a sudden 90-180 degrees Axial movement initiated by the plane (in a few seconds)if you try to make a (to ?) short turn. Some planes warn by shaking but some just flip over and often become uncontrollable. I learned how to get out of a (slow)spin after stalling but I have no clue how to react to these flips. They most times end in very very fast uncontrollable spins. (in the P47 it happens every flight)

 

I think I do something very basic wrong but I do not know what. Could it be related to coordinated turning ?   

Sounds you're doing accelerated stalls. I haven't covered stalls yet oddly enough so I'll have to add it to my to-do list.

Essentially...if you're seeing the airframe vibrate you're pulling too hard. Try and be coordinated as well as being uncoordinated increases your stall speed

Edited by SYN_Requiem
stupid phone autocorrect

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23 hours ago, pa4tim said:

That is exactly the problem. As soon as I am at the point between 1:01 and 1:03  it goes wrong. 

It suddenly rotates on its own until I hang up side down. It feels like tipping over. And if I try to stop it or rotate back, most times it reacts very slow and then suddenly rotates very fast the opposite direction and then it goes down. In the Spitfire I often can get it back under control just before I crash. But f.i. in the Stuka or even worse, the P47 I crash 95% of the time.  It feels like a rodeo horse with a very bad temper. 

This happens also in some FC planes but there it seldom ends in a crash. 

 

I must learn to fly first before I try manoeuvres like this. I can fly around but only if I take time, so not in combat. I fly my Spitfire most times because I like turn fighting and it is rather forgiving while doing that, but I want to be able to fly all planes so I think I miss some basics. The YT videos I watched all skip the basics about how to combine rudder, throttle and roll. 

If you see one of your wings dipping, immediately kicking opposite rudder will often keep you from spinning as well. its a temporary solution, however.

WWII fighter planes are a handful and if you push them too hard, some of them have violent stalling tendencies. The P-39 and the I-16 come to mind. The P-39 can go into an unrecoverable spin and even its normal spin is difficult to recover from. The I-16 is phenomenally agile but crazy unstable and tends to drop a wing and spin extremely rapidly, with little warning if you're pulling hard.

As for the P-47, hard turns are not its forte. There's a bit of an exploit in-game where you can deploy flaps and turn like crazy at low speeds, but this was largely impossible in the real thing as the flaps deployed assymmetrically. If you fly it without the flaps, hard turns are going to bleed energy very fast, which will get you down to stall speed very fast, and then you find yourself spinning. The Jug is a bit of dog down low so it doesn't regain energy very fast at low altitudes and its hard to have enough altitude to recover from a spin. The manual for the P-47 states that if you find yourself spinning below 7000 feet and can't recover in one or two turns, bail out. If you're turning hard at 500 feet and spin, you're dead meat. The good news is the P-47 gives you lots of warning if you're listening for it. As a note, I find the P-47 needs a lot of rudder, and it needs it to be done with finesse. The spitfire, by contrast, apparently needs very little rudder to keep coordinated. So that may be why you are finding recovery easier in that aircraft.

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On 8/11/2019 at 6:44 PM, SYN_Requiem said:

Try and be coordinated as well as being uncoordinated increases your stall speed

I tried all suggestions and it goes a bit better now. The biggest problem is probably the coordinated one. I do not know how to do it right but I am experimenting with giving more or less (or even opposite) rudder in turns to see the effects and that seems to have more influence then I thought it would have.  

 

I noticed something else, I did a career with the P39 and that went really well. The first mission I had to redo a few times because I stalled it and then crashed (I think it was what you called accelerated stall ) but if I flew it a bit less aggressive  it was a blast and very successful. I really like that plane.   So I tried it also in a few quick mission (the one vs one) but that went not so well. I had the same problem again as I described in this topic but in this plane I noticed the effects of rudder coordination better and also here in combination with a bit less aggressive use of the stick and  throttle did a lot .

 

I think flying the FC planes also helped, in the beginning I often crashed them because I broke wings in  high G turns and fast dives but the last few days 9 out of 10 head to head missions result in me taking out all enemies without crashing. 

 

So thanks for the advise, I will try to find out how to improve coordination and practice that.  

 

I haven't covered stalls yet oddly enough so I'll have to add it to my to-do list.

 

Around 8 minutes they talk about how to recognize and how to survive a stall: (the rest after that is all about how to fly from stalls to lazy 8's, formation etc. It could be a Requiem made movie 😉  At 13:34 they show my  tip over problem and Requiem is right I think, I think that is called accelerated stall. You make a very short turn, stall speed goes up in those cases and the airplane drops a wing.

 

 

Edited by pa4tim

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5 hours ago, pa4tim said:

I tried all suggestions and it goes a bit better now. The biggest problem is probably the coordinated one. I do not know how to do it right but I am experimenting with giving more or less (or even opposite) rudder in turns to see the effects and that seems to have more influence then I thought it would have.  

 

I noticed something else, I did a career with the P39 and that went really well. The first mission I had to redo a few times because I stalled it and then crashed (I think it was what you called accelerated stall ) but if I flew it a bit less aggressive  it was a blast and very successful. I really like that plane.   So I tried it also in a few quick mission (the one vs one) but that went not so well. I had the same problem again as I described in this topic but in this plane I noticed the effects of rudder coordination better and also here in combination with a bit less aggressive use of the stick and  throttle did a lot .

 

I think flying the FC planes also helped, in the beginning I often crashed them because I broke wings in  high G turns and fast dives but the last few days 9 out of 10 head to head missions result in me taking out all enemies without crashing. 

 

So thanks for the advise, I will try to find out how to improve coordination and practice that.  

 

I haven't covered stalls yet oddly enough so I'll have to add it to my to-do list.

 

Around 8 minutes they talk about how to recognize and how to survive a stall: (the rest after that is all about how to fly from stalls to lazy 8's, formation etc. It could be a Requiem made movie 😉  At 13:34 they show my  tip over problem and Requiem is right I think, I think that is called accelerated stall. You make a very short turn, stall speed goes up in those cases and the airplane drops a wing.

Good to hear @pa4tim. As you get more comfortable flying a particular plane you get a feel of how far you can push it's envelope, so you end up with a good idea of how much G you can apply without causing an accelerated stall. Being coordinated in a simulator is always a little more difficult because you can't truly feel it like you can in a real airplane, so try and set up your cockpit view so the slip and skid indicator is in view if you really want to keep track of it.

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On 8/11/2019 at 6:44 PM, SYN_Requiem said:

 

I hope I do not pollute your topic, if so let me know and I will ask if a mod can move it to a separate discussion. I place it here because you maybe it is useful to you regarding teaching the absolute basics for a total beginner in a sim. I think the real thing is more easy to learn because the instructor sits next to you, you see and feel what he does in the plane and controls. (I think, I never flew in a real plane) In a sim I can learn myself big mistakes that I then correct by even bigger mistakes and crashing is not a bad thing in a sim so you try things you would never do in real (unless the instructor is sleeping or has a dead wish...) 

 

I found some videos about coordinated turns, they were demonstrated in real planes. Like this one.

 

That seems to be different from the planes I tried in the sim (P47 and P39)

If they only use aileron the plane did what they called adverse jaw, the nose goes at first in the opposite direction before making the turn and that caused slip (or is that drift ?) and that is visible through the ball position in the meter.  They give some rudder using the pedal that is at the same side as the ball (called step on the ball ) This seems to be more easy in real life because you feel it by the way you are pushed in your chair. In a sim you feel nothing.

 

The P39 and P47 do show slip and drift in the meter correct but I do not see adverse jaw while looking at the nose. Is this because most war birds had the fuselage above the wing ? (the demo planes had their wing above the fuselage)  

 

I tried it several times and it did not work. There are many great tutorials but the ones I saw all skipped that basis. I just learned it by "brute force" to correct my mistakes, often by making even bigger mistakes.

 

But I am decent in analyzing things I see or do. But only If I know why you must do something. So I went back to the base and started flying with only aileron. (I even unmapped the rudder and pitch the first trials). Started at 10000 feet and went on going from side to side  and only looked at the ball many times until I crashed) This way I found out I did it terrible wrong. It turned out (no pun intended  😋 ) that aileron only banks the plane but not makes it turn by itself. Adding rudder then made it going up and down if far enough (90 degrees)  banked or Left/right like expected if I flew banked at 0 degrees. 

If the plane is banked 90 degrees the rudder is horizontal so that made sense.  So to turn banked that much I need the elevator, in that position it is vertical and becomes a rudder.

 

But that has some complications if you are anywhere between 0 and 90 degrees. You could say both controls switch from function in between. The more banked, the more the rudder becomes an elevator and the elevator becomes rudder. 

 

I have a twist grip joystick and a throttle unit with an axis you can use for rudder. I used the twist grip. Turned out a twist grip is not the best option for me because I twist it also without noticing.  (Tried the throttle unit flaps and it went even worse. Turned out my throttle unit axis potentiometer was bad (and some very bad solderwork) so I first repaired and improved that) and now I had more control/feel over the rudder.

 

My biggest fault causing the P39/47 to flip over, and I think more people do that, was using to much elevator all the time while correcting that if I was at max bank with opposite rudder to prefent it flipping over until things get so much out of balance the plane flips over anyhow. I had the elevator most times at max and somewhere half way a turn I often also used max opposite rudder so I had two controls maxed out more or less the wrong way. 

 

If I now bank not to wild, try to keep the ball in the middle with small rudder corrections and ease off the rudder but add more elevator the more banked I could flew a circle in the P39 at a much higher turn speed as I could before and with the P39 still behaving perfectly. But I need a lot more practice before doing that smooth and without looking permanent on the meter. And I will park the Spitfire for a while because he lets me make mistakes without lethal punishment. 

 

I also found out getting out of a spin is not the same for all planes (I think or it was just luck) . In the P39 it worked best when I cut off throttle and RPM and then only use aileron in the direction of the spin. Within 1 or 2 turns it will dive straight. I then pull up gently while giving some throttle and RPM and it flies very nice without feeling like you riding a wild bull. I used to let throttle go and then give full opposite rudder until it becomes stable. In some planes this worked sometimes, in the P39 most times not. 

 

Are my conclusions in the right direction, or am I learning myself even bigger faults that just happen to work for the P39 by accident ? 

 

edit: I tried things also in Rise of Flight with a Bristol and that did showed adverse jaw. As far as I know ROF is from the same makers so they know how to model that in the FM if the plane does that in real life. I made a stupid mistake that was very educational. I un-mapped the twistgrip but forgot to map the flippers. So I flew the first few times without rudder in the Bristol. And it flew very nice so it seems not using rudder is better as using it the wrong way. (I installed ROF a few weeks ago and bought the BOB map (and 3 planes) because that is my favorite map in 1946. I hope FC ends as good as ROF. Just out of curiosity because it is mentioned a lot on this forum as a compare to FC) Normally I am killed very fast by the AI in ROF but after fixing the controls and some rudder practice I now was able to stick on there six most times and even one time kill all 3 of them and survived and even land the plane undamaged. That was a first.

 

Found an other thing, the P39 does show slip/skid in left turns but most of the time not in right turns. And if it did it is the opposite so I need to give left rudder. Is that caused by the prop turn direction and common to more war planes ? (they are probably also a lot more powerful as the plane in the video above) I start to like the P39, instead of constantly crashing it I now made a few turns that pulled so much G that the pilot totally blacked out.  That only overcame me before in the Spitfire IX. 

 

More important, the practice is beginning to pay off. I am glad I now use the flippers on the throttle unit because muscle memory is hard to kill, I notice I still try to do the wrong thing with the twistgrip  (having it permanent maxed out the wrong direction most of the time).  I still keep an eye on the slip meter but as a test also without looking on it (and just give a little rudder watching the planes reaction is an improvement. The plane just flies smoother if I try to fly  coordinated.  After a few hours of practice I tried a duel and I still crashed a few times but that was just stupid flying and not because I lost control. 

 

I think it makes sense to make a few videos about these basic things. I too watched  videos about combat manoeuvres and tried to learn them while I not even could fly the right way. (and had no clue about that)  

 

Edited by pa4tim
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@pa4tim It may be a little late for you now, but I'm planning on doing a series teaching my wife how to fly (probably starting next weekend), by treating her as a new student starting out in a Po-2. She won't do it until she finishes her personal nose art and I make a skin for her, but she's almost finished her part so I'll make her skin next week while I'm out flying to hopefully get started on that.

 

New debrief today where I'm flying the Bf 109. An airplane I really don't get to fly at all in comparison to the Allied airplanes due to uneven player numbers when I'm in MP, but in this time the Axis were outnumbered and had the chance to fly one which made for an interesting sortie with some good learning points even though I had to cut it short and RTB early due to time constraints.

 

 

I wish I could figure out why the videos won't embed in these replies but they do in my original post...(figured out, thanks pa4tim!)

Edited by SYN_Requiem
embedded video
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Do you use the link you get if you press the share button ? That should embed it.

Cool, so she wants to become a night-witch 😁

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5 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

I wish I could figure out why the videos won't embed in these replies

What @pa4tim said.

Hey Req, if you want a skin knocking up I'd be more than happy to lend a hand? Just ask mate, anytime. The LEAST I could do! :salute:

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3 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

What @pa4tim said.

Hey Req, if you want a skin knocking up I'd be more than happy to lend a hand? Just ask mate, anytime. The LEAST I could do! :salute:

No worries mate it's all good, I'm comfortable with skinning :) I just wish there was a 4k template for the U2-VS or if there is I haven't seen it... She got her nose art done so I can knock out the skin in the next couple days on my trip.

 

4 hours ago, pa4tim said:

Do you use the link you get if you press the share button ? That should embed it.

Cool, so she wants to become a night-witch 😁

Perfect, thank you!

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5 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

Here Req... Under Collector Planes. It's already got the 4k Normal Map in-game.

Oh so the regular template is already 4k then, very good! Wasn't sure if it was affecting the nose art negatively by losing details. If it's 4k that's less of an issue. Thanks Rap 😊

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27 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Oh so the regular template is already 4k then

The only thing is with it is that a couple of the 'details' aren't where you'd usually find them but it aint TOO much of a problem, just go up turning the layers on and off and you'll find what yer looking for!

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Forgot to add the latest debrief...anyway, here's that..the P-38, and Tempest familiarisation. P-51 should be later today. Cheers.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

P-51...

 

 

The fastest thing in the game is not any of the planes but Requiem churning out quality tutorials!

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21 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The fastest thing in the game is not any of the planes but Requiem churning out quality tutorials!

Being a beta tester makes things easier now, but the patch yesterday caught me by surprise as I had the P-38 and Tempest ready but not the P-51 so it was a few hours late :salute:

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19 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

a few hours late :salute:

The nerve!

shame-shame-shame-.png

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3 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

P-51...

 

 


Anyone have any combat tips? Combat flaps? etc? 

Would be much appreciated.

 

This video has already helped me tons!! 

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Could we say as a rule of the thumb that to start up most (or many) engines: 100% RPM, 100% mixture, 10% throttle and then press E?

It works this way with the new planes, P51, P38 and Tempest.

 

Edited by 15[Span.]/JG51Spartan

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Yes, a plane-engine needs fuel so something to regulate that (mixture), Air to mix with the fuel (throttle)  and needs a certain RPM to get a certain speed (RPM or prop pitch)

Some have a governor that change for instance the throttle to keep the prop  at a constant RPM.

To change speed they can change the RPM of the engine or change the prop pitch and keep the prop-speed and RPM constant.

 

So most planes have a prop lever, a mixture lever and a throttle lever.

 

For start the mixture is most times 100%, some have some automation and want you to set it at f.i. a start or auto rich position  but full rich will almost always be OK. Max lean will most times stop the engine . To rich costs some performance but in the sim it has no other consequences. To lean can cause over-heating, costs power and can cause speed knocking and kill your engine. 

 

To get enough air you need something to limit it and something to make it possible to increase it to be more as a cilinder+piston can suck in on its own . This by compressing the air (turbo and/or supercharger)

More throttle is more air and so it needs more fuel to not get to lean. So if you have an engine with a supercharger that tries to pump in more air you need a fuel system to deliver that. So that is an other reason to have a more advanced and/or adjustable mixture mechanisme. Taking off needs a lot off power so max throttle is most times OK. To start you need some air and 10% is often OK. Like you start a car, some need a little bit off throttle (talking about cars from that area). Most planes will start best with no throttle at all but 10% is almost never to much. 

 

To regulate speed, you need to change RPM or Prop-pitch.  If it has no prop-pitch lever it can do it automatic. For starting max prop pitch can be a bit much for a very powerfull taildragger (they nosedive) but it prevents over revving. On the other hand, we are talking idle RPMs

 

To ignite the air-fuel mixture you need an ignition system (like magnetos) but the sim does all that for us.

 

All other settings are to optimize things or to work together with things like a governor or other automation. In real it can a bit more complex

because you need to do other things too and you can flood an engine by to much full, but for 1 prop warbirds it is most times not very much. Most times: battery on, fuel taps open, fuel pump on, set throttle closed, set mixture max, prop pitch max and press start.

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10 hours ago, 15[Span.]/JG51Spartan said:

Could we say as a rule of the thumb that to start up most (or many) engines: 100% RPM, 100% mixture, 10% throttle and then press E?

It works this way with the new planes, P51, P38 and Tempest.

 

You can...but with all my tutorials I do my best to avoid  "what works in the game" (other than the E key pressing thing for example) and stick to the real manuals where possible.

if the devs make changes that affect this aspect then I don't have to care if any changes are made as I know my videos will still work to get people started in an airplane, BFM, gunnery, or whatever...

 

If one day everything in the cockpit becomes clickable then I'll create videos to show the startup procedures fully, and not the kind of blended process I create from the manuals at the moment.

Edited by SYN_Requiem
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Hello SYN_Requiem can i ask you to share your current Track ir profile. the one in download section on 2014 it seems to sensitive looking backwards, if i try to look backwards to the left it always pushes pilot to the right checking six makes sometime very difficult. I try to tweak it but i make it worst. if you could share it, i greatly appreciate that. Thanks

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2 hours ago, Papa_Bear said:

Hello SYN_Requiem can i ask you to share your current Track ir profile. the one in download section on 2014 it seems to sensitive looking backwards, if i try to look backwards to the left it always pushes pilot to the right checking six makes sometime very difficult. I try to tweak it but i make it worst. if you could share it, i greatly appreciate that. Thanks

 

Papa Bear, here is my TIR profile with text file for TIR and in game settings.  I use this one for both IL2 and DCS when I play that.  It's very smooth for IL2 and seems even better since I rebuilt my computer. 

 

Cheers

Hoss

 

Track IR Profile

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3 hours ago, Papa_Bear said:

Hello SYN_Requiem can i ask you to share your current Track ir profile. the one in download section on 2014 it seems to sensitive looking backwards, if i try to look backwards to the left it always pushes pilot to the right checking six makes sometime very difficult. I try to tweak it but i make it worst. if you could share it, i greatly appreciate that. Thanks

 

Here you go: Requiem Oct 2019.zip

 

Place it here: C:\Users\YourUserName\AppData\Roaming\NaturalPoint\TrackIR 5\Profiles

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yeah, what Requiem said............. I forgot that after I had built my new system and could not for the life of me understand why I was not seeing the profile in the gui page of TIR... then I remembered about the App\Data\Roaming in the hidden files...

 

 

 

Edited by 361st_Hoss

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6 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

 

Here you go: Requiem Oct 2019.zip

 

Place it here: C:\Users\YourUserName\AppData\Roaming\NaturalPoint\TrackIR 5\Profiles

Thank you very much i'm really appreciate that 

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Did a little livestream last night with a few kills and assists on it. Still been working the kinks out of how to get the livestream working properly... I can't seem to get comments to show up using the Nvidia Geforce Experience overlay so I was unable to answer questions. My apologies for that. I have to have my phone out to see them which is a bad distraction when I'm flying lol

 

 

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2 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

which is a bad distraction when I'm flying lol

You should be working, not PLAYING!! :good:

Good video anyway, I watched it a bit earlier on today inbetween doing my first (difficult) skin for the Mustang... LOADS of chequering on it. 3-d models don't generally LIKE loads of chequering, trust me!!

Edited by Raptorattacker

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Requiem

If I may ask 

What are your speed and smoothing settings in TIR?

Also

While watching the video I noticed that you have very few jaggies, can you tell me your settings in BOS and video card control panel?

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11 hours ago, Panp said:

Requiem

If I may ask 

What are your speed and smoothing settings in TIR?

Also

While watching the video I noticed that you have very few jaggies, can you tell me your settings in BOS and video card control panel?

Yes I tried also his trkir profile and it is a mess...we need same more details.

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21 hours ago, Panp said:

Requiem

If I may ask 

What are your speed and smoothing settings in TIR?

Also

While watching the video I noticed that you have very few jaggies, can you tell me your settings in BOS and video card control panel?

 

10 hours ago, ITAF_Rani said:

Yes I tried also his trkir profile and it is a mess...we need same more details.

 

My Nvidia control panel is standard, no adjustments. Additionally, I have a Freesync monitor which is one that is compatible with G-Sync which helps with frame rate smoothness.

 

Requiem Oct 2019.zip

 

612662742_GFXSettings.thumb.jpg.194050cbbead57e9aaa2db0dfa64aecf.jpg

 

158864941_TIRsettings.png.62f6300aa0971bab6b2a6203f75971d7.png

 

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